California to ban new gas car sales by 2035

The Build Back Better Act that passed the House contained provisions that made massive investments in building out a nationwide supercharging network. Ideally, in the next couple years, we can bring that back to get a head start on building out a charging network.

For renters, I don't really see this as being a problem. Most people who rent apartments or whatnot have cars that have gas tanks with roughly a 300 mile range (give or take), and can't refill their gas tank at home. They still have to go to a gas station which takes 5-10 minutes. In the same way, they can stop by a location with a charging station to do the same. I definitely think the time per fill-up and range per charge isn't quite as efficient as a gas vehicle, which most rapid chargers doing somewhere around 100-200 miles of range in 20-30 minutes.

But the rapid charging network locations doesn't have to be the same as what we have now either. We don't have to create specific gas stations just for refueling cars. We can build out super chargers pretty much anywhere where there's a nearby electrical grid. A lot of restaurants have charging stations, malls, libraries, and I've even seen chargers at like McDonald's or a local grocery store. The point is, we need chargers everywhere, but we actually CAN start putting chargers everywhere. Their footprint is far smaller than an entire gas station, the distribution is more distributed, and people can start refueling their cars no matter what else they're doing like running errands or grabbing a bite.

Yes, apartment complexes can and should be installing charging stations, but there's no reason to avoid a transition to an all EV industry simply because they haven't yet and need to.



The recycling issue is a problem. Though I'd argue that burning fossil fuels until we run out and the planet burns up is the far bigger issue. Right now, several of the auto manufacturers have been looking at battery recycling as a potential avenue towards decreasing the dependency on rare earth minerals needed to produce batteries now. Like GM's Ultium Cell technology, which GM estimates they can plan on recovering 95% of the materials during the recycling process to produce new Ultium batteries.



As for the grid and its ability to support EV vehicles, as you mentioned, we have problems with our aging power grid already. Texas, quite famously, has had some pretty extensive and serious outages recently and at the same time prides itself on avoiding evil federal government "regulation" with laughable results. But even in "pro regulation" environments like California they have struggled with their grid.

Lake Mead is getting close to having to shut down due to a lack of water, which won't help Las Vegas any. But some of these grid challenges can be mitigated through distributed power generation like adding solar panels to everyone's rooftops. In a net metering scenario, with a big enough array, you can pretty much power a home just with the sunlight that hits its roof most days, sending excess back into the grid. Add a battery backup solution and you can charge a car overnight. Minimizing draw on the network.

Does it fully and perfectly off set the need to replace aging infrastructure and solve for problems like power generation during ice storms and when there's excessive cloud cover? No. But we have those problems right now. I don't think something not being a perfect silver bullet for all scenarios doesn't mean we don't still do the work anyways.

We need to improve storage and we definitely need more nuke plants and people to stop with the NIMBY bullshit. :bleh2:

Theres a chicken and egg scenario going on with people not wanting the EV's until the infrastrcuture is up to par and the infrastructure not getting built unless EV adoption is plentiful.

Your energy comment brings up another point. All the **** that needs to be done costs alot of money up front, money that not alot of people have just sitting in a piggy bank under their mattress.

Someone has to get the ball rolling and right now only the wealthier tier of people can really make those moves without having a "its either this or food on the table" argument.
 
Theres a chicken and egg scenario going on with people not wanting the EV's until the infrastrcuture is up to par and the infrastructure not getting built unless EV adoption is plentiful.

Your energy comment brings up another point. All the **** that needs to be done costs alot of money up front, money that not alot of people have just sitting in a piggy bank under their mattress.

Someone has to get the ball rolling and right now only the wealthier tier of people can really make those moves without having a "its either this or food on the table" argument.

I feel like we solved for this problem hundreds of years ago. This is kinda why we have governments. There wasn't a national interstate highway system until they decided to use government funding to build it, now we all take advantage and benefit from it.

We could invest in the up front costs to get the ball rolling, and with the IRA of 2022 we kinda did get that ball rolling, but there's gaps still that need to be addressed. Sure, it's not profitable, but it needs to be done so we might as well get started.
 
The Build Back Better Act that passed the House contained provisions that made massive investments in building out a nationwide supercharging network. Ideally, in the next couple years, we can bring that back to get a head start on building out a charging network.

For renters, I don't really see this as being a problem. Most people who rent apartments or whatnot have cars that have gas tanks with roughly a 300 mile range (give or take), and can't refill their gas tank at home. They still have to go to a gas station which takes 5-10 minutes. In the same way, they can stop by a location with a charging station to do the same. I definitely think the time per fill-up and range per charge isn't quite as efficient as a gas vehicle, which most rapid chargers doing somewhere around 100-200 miles of range in 20-30 minutes.

But the rapid charging network locations doesn't have to be the same as what we have now either. We don't have to create specific gas stations just for refueling cars. We can build out super chargers pretty much anywhere where there's a nearby electrical grid. A lot of restaurants have charging stations, malls, libraries, and I've even seen chargers at like McDonald's or a local grocery store. The point is, we need chargers everywhere, but we actually CAN start putting chargers everywhere. Their footprint is far smaller than an entire gas station, the distribution is more distributed, and people can start refueling their cars no matter what else they're doing like running errands or grabbing a bite.

Yes, apartment complexes can and should be installing charging stations, but there's no reason to avoid a transition to an all EV industry simply because they haven't yet and need to.


Theres more to it than just putting in more chargers in more places. When I mean renters I dont just mean to ones who live in fancy apartments, complexes and well developed living spaces. Im talking about most people who rent a part of a house or maybe even the guest house of a house. A lot of them dont have parking spots(all street) and owners of said houses who wont budge on installing or changing anything.

In theory we could have more charging spaces where gas stations are, but are gas stations willing to give up their space for charging lots in cities where space is a premium? Space is already a premium in cities like LA and NYC.

2035 is a long time from now so things can be built up but I dont see prices dropping for EVs so that the average family is able to just grab an EV.

Im not opposed to EV, I just think its going to take a lot of time to get them to the mainstream and have the sustainable grid for it to work. I would even venture to say I wont see the day where EVs out number ICE cars on the road in my lifetime.
 
Theres more to it than just putting in more chargers in more places. When I mean renters I dont just mean to ones who live in fancy apartments, complexes and well developed living spaces. Im talking about most people who rent a part of a house or maybe even the guest house of a house. A lot of them dont have parking spots(all street) and owners of said houses who wont budge on installing or changing anything.

In theory we could have more charging spaces where gas stations are, but are gas stations willing to give up their space for charging lots in cities where space is a premium? Space is already a premium in cities like LA and NYC.

2035 is a long time from now so things can be built up but I dont see prices dropping for EVs so that the average family is able to just grab an EV.

Im not opposed to EV, I just think its going to take a lot of time to get them to the mainstream and have the sustainable grid for it to work. I would even venture to say I wont see the day where EVs out number ICE cars on the road in my lifetime.

That's a good point. I guess I took "renters" to be directed at more highly dense compact urban areas but even home rentals will have this problem, especially in areas where there's no garage options and it's all curbside.

But, I guess I don't see that as being entirely different than the current need to go get gas at a gas station.

Gas stations will have to decide to either accommodate charging infrastructure or face extinction. And with more and more charging options (again, basically any business that wants to encourage someone to spend time at their mall or store or whatever), means new business models and opportunities.

The average cost of an EV is high right now, but it doesn't have to be. It's a bit skewed by interest in the Teslas of the world. The Chevy Bolt EV has been around a while, gets 250 mile range, and starts around $31-25k. With prices coming down across the industry all the time.

There are several auto manufacturers who see the writing on the wall for ICE cars. Honda says they expect to completely phase out all ICE cars from its portfolio by 2040, with EV cars making up 85% of its sales by 2035.

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ient-evs-with-lots-of-wind-tunnel-development

It seems like Ford already said they were only going to have EV options by this time next decade also.

https://carbuzz.com/news/ford-is-pushing-for-an-end-to-ice-sales-by-2035

Audi says they're phasing out development on new internal combustion engines entirely.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a36292118/phasing-out-internal-combustion-engines/

GM says only zero-emission vehicles by 2035, which I take to mean pretty much the same.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/business/gm-zero-emission-vehicles.html

So... all of this suggests it may not matter if California decrees no new ICE vehicles by 2035, since by around that time the automakers may not be selling any anymore.
 
I really doubt anyone is going to be manufacturing gas vehicles by 2035, at least not in the states. Maybe there will be some gas-car markets in developing countries? It's funny, 'cause a couple decades ago that would include China, but it looks like they're going to be one of biggest producers/consumers of electric cars.
 
I really doubt anyone is going to be manufacturing gas vehicles by 2035, at least not in the states. Maybe there will be some gas-car markets in developing countries? It's funny, 'cause a couple decades ago that would include China, but it looks like they're going to be one of biggest producers/consumers of electric cars.

:lol:

i do

there isn't enough lithium for all those electric cars that fast .


..........

then wait for a few 100+ ev car pile ups and the lithium ion fire
 
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I know this might be a local phenomenon, but so many young people I know are in no rush at all to get their license. When I was 16 I couldn't wait to start learning, get my freedom and start driving. But now I know so many who just prefer to get an Uber, stay in their basement, just hang local, etc.

Where am I going with this?...it feels like there is a new generational trend happening now (at least to me). I would have thought it impossible a few years back, but now I'm seeing way more of the ride sharing taking place, and consumer taste regarding autos change. I see with EVs, cars becoming more and more a commodity, something that gets you from point A to B, something that will drive you instead you driving the car.
 
I really doubt anyone is going to be manufacturing gas vehicles by 2035, at least not in the states. Maybe there will be some gas-car markets in developing countries? It's funny, 'cause a couple decades ago that would include China, but it looks like they're going to be one of biggest producers/consumers of electric cars.

It's a shame. China was basically handed the renewables technology and development leadership over the past decade. We could've created a large, thriving industry in the United States for the manufacture of green technologies like solar panels, but now they pretty much all come from China because we instead pretended that climate change is a hoax and green energy was beneath us. :cry:
 
I know this might be a local phenomenon, but so many young people I know are in no rush at all to get their license. When I was 16 I couldn't wait to start learning, get my freedom and start driving. But now I know so many who just prefer to get an Uber, stay in their basement, just hang local, etc.

Where am I going with this?...it feels like there is a new generational trend happening now (at least to me). I would have thought it impossible a few years back, but now I'm seeing way more of the ride sharing taking place, and consumer taste regarding autos change. I see with EVs, cars becoming more and more a commodity, something that gets you from point A to B, something that will drive you instead you driving the car.

There's been news articles written about this a while back. Mostly you can meet your friends on-line and smartphone popularity and graduated licensing schemes taking out all the fun of being able to drive at 16. They do eventually buy cars like the previous gen, just when it's more necessary.

That said I really hope the young continue their meh attitude towards cars. Financially these things are horrible and banks are even allowing 7 year loans on them. Heck dealers make so much on the finance side it's hard to even pay cash for a car.
 
It's a shame. China was basically handed the renewables technology and development leadership over the past decade. We could've created a large, thriving industry in the United States for the manufacture of green technologies like solar panels, but now they pretty much all come from China because we instead pretended that climate change is a hoax and green energy was beneath us. :cry:

Not at all. They acknowledged that China could always create the same thing more cheaply than the US can, so why bother trying? It was a race to the bottom, which is what corporations do unless prevented. The only way that wouldn't have happened would be legislation that forbids purchasing chinese product, which would have run afoul of WTO rules. Or, the US government considering technology a National Security interest, and forbid foreign engineering students from coming to the US, being taught everything we know, then taking it away with them.

An industry can't thrive unless they have a market, and there's no market for goods that cost 50% more than the competition. There were MANY startups at the start of all of this that got huge government backing, etc. Solyndra? Belly up.
 
I know this might be a local phenomenon, but so many young people I know are in no rush at all to get their license. When I was 16 I couldn't wait to start learning, get my freedom and start driving. But now I know so many who just prefer to get an Uber, stay in their basement, just hang local, etc.

Where am I going with this?...it feels like there is a new generational trend happening now (at least to me). I would have thought it impossible a few years back, but now I'm seeing way more of the ride sharing taking place, and consumer taste regarding autos change. I see with EVs, cars becoming more and more a commodity, something that gets you from point A to B, something that will drive you instead you driving the car.

I think it also depends on where you live.
My city has **** public transit and is pretty spread out and car centric. If you're not overpaying to live in the downtown core and the surrounding areas you cannot reliability get to places without a car. Fortunately if you do live there alot of areas are walkable. But anywhere outside the core the crappy transit system has to take place, and the routes make it so that going somewhere that takes like 15mins by car would take like 1.5 hrs to get there. Then lately we have been having some increasing safety issues happening with vagrants and homeless congregating on our LRT stations and causing uncomfortable and potentially dangerous encounters.....
 
https://apnews.com/article/technolo...-environment-268bad3b416dd75c8d4cc01c64909c90

Washington Gov. Jay Inslee said his state will follow California and prohibit the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by 2035.


So now we might have another state doing the ban and a lot of EU countries doing the same. Really hope everyone gets stuff in place to make this happen without delay or major hiccups.

I'm hearing Lazy8's state is also considering similar

individual states make the call? I thought there already was one at the federal level or was there never one?

Up here in Canadia the federal government already mandated ICE ban for 2030 or 2035 like Europe(i forget which...they tend to use the more ridiculous timelines/numbers to make it seem like we're going to do it "betteR/faster" than everyone else).
The problem is we need to get the EV infrastructure up to snuff cuz its pretty pathetic right now except maybe in BC and I think some parts of Ontario and Quebec. The way our federal government has been handling all the climate stuff they've been promising all the green stuff they could think of with timelines that make no sense, especially without any real transition plan. Then the various provincial governments have been foot draggers cuz they're a bunch of morons.
 
individual states make the call? I thought there already was one at the federal level or was there never one?
.

In theory a state could ban Milk if they wanted to, barring a federal law ensuring Milk is available. Things get murky if the Federal Goverment starts brandishing the Commerce Clause


https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/commerce_clause

The Commerce Clause refers to Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution, which gives Congress the power “to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes.

For example, if Congress passes a law which says that California can not prevent the transport and sales if ICE vehicles manufactured outside of California (ie. all vehicles) then Califonia's restriction is neutered and illegal.


Without a contradiction between Fed and State law though, they can do pretty much any commerce regulation they want.
 
https://apnews.com/article/technolo...-environment-268bad3b416dd75c8d4cc01c64909c90

Washington Gov. Jay Inslee said his state will follow California and prohibit the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by 2035.


So now we might have another state doing the ban and a lot of EU countries doing the same. Really hope everyone gets stuff in place to make this happen without delay or major hiccups.

I'm hearing Lazy8's state is also considering similar

Yep, it’s a done deal after Cali passed theirs. I didn’t know about the “piggyback” rule.

By 2035, all new cars sold in the state must run on electric or hydrogen power, after Governor Baker signed a climate change law earlier this month.

The law includes a trigger, according to experts, that says that once California decided to implement zero-emission vehicles, Massachusetts must do the same. Since California made that decision Thursday, regulators here must now begin to work on the details and put auto dealers, along with the public, on notice that the change will be coming.

"California had to go first according to federal law, and now states can piggyback on to the California rule, which Governor Baker has pledged to do," Larry Chretien of the Green Energy Consumers Alliance said. "The legislature is now requiring that and so now the next step is for the Massachusetts Department of Environmental Protection to write the regulations that will make it happen."

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/loca...-be-allowed-in-massachusetts-in-2035/2818583/
 
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Cars of Hollywood 2036


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individual states make the call? I thought there already was one at the federal level or was there never one?

Up here in Canadia the federal government already mandated ICE ban for 2030 or 2035 like Europe(i forget which...they tend to use the more ridiculous timelines/numbers to make it seem like we're going to do it "betteR/faster" than everyone else).
The problem is we need to get the EV infrastructure up to snuff cuz its pretty pathetic right now except maybe in BC and I think some parts of Ontario and Quebec. The way our federal government has been handling all the climate stuff they've been promising all the green stuff they could think of with timelines that make no sense, especially without any real transition plan. Then the various provincial governments have been foot draggers cuz they're a bunch of morons.

From what I understand there are federal level emissions rules but since California had emissions rules in place ahead of the Feds they got a carve out in the Clean Air act to set their own as long as some requirements are met. The act also gave carve outs for other states so long as they match California's exactly.

California has such an outsized car market that generally what they say gets adopted nationwide as it is too much of a pain to make cars just for California and then cars for everyone else when any car that meets California's standards will meet Fed standards as one of the requirements of the Clean Air act says the Cali standards must be at least as strict if not stricter than the Fed rules.

Really hope this all works out but wouldn't be surprised if there are delays. I'd be more convinced when I start seeing 350kw fast DC chargers start sprouting up in private business parking lots and building codes updated to require at least an extra 240v breaker to the garage.
 
Yet another manufacturer investing entirely in battery technology.

North American lithium-ion battery production is set to soar over the next decade. The Biden administration and Congress have both put policies in place to incentivize domestic manufacturing over imports, and startups, battery companies, and automakers are responding. Honda and LG Energy Solutions are the most recent to make moves; on Monday morning, the companies announced that they are forming a $4.4 billion joint venture to build a US battery factory.

"Our joint venture with Honda, which has significant brand reputation, is yet another milestone in our mid- to long-term strategy of promoting electrification in the fast-growing North American market," said Youngsoo Kwon, CEO of LG Energy Solution. "Since our ultimate goal is to earn our valued customers' trust and respect, we aspire to position ourselves as a leading battery innovator, working with Honda in achieving its core initiatives for electrification, as well as providing sustainable energy solutions to discerning end consumers."

In May, the Department of Energy announced $3 billion in funding to boost domestic battery production. Much of that battery production will be destined for electric vehicles, particularly since President Joe Biden signed the Inflation Reduction Act into law this month. The law ties an EV's tax credit to where its battery pack was made—if an ever-increasing proportion of the pack is not domestic, there is no credit.

Even before the change to the EV tax credit, automakers have been rushing to set up battery plants in the US, usually in southern states with no union presence. General Motors and LG are already building Ultium battery cells in Ohio, and Ford and SK are building plants in Tennessee and Kentucky that will supplement SK cells already being made in Georgia.

Volkswagen is another customer for those Georgian SK cells for locally made ID.4 crossovers. But VW is also looking to build cells in North America, possibly with multiple modular 40 GWh factories.

Stellantis—the owner of Ram and Jeep, among other brands—is another one of LG's partners. It's targeting 2024 for the start of local cell production at a factory in Windsor in Canada. But car companies can be promiscuous—Stellantis is also working with Samsung SDI on a battery joint venture in Indiana that is due to come online in 2025.

2025 is when Honda and LG are targeting mass production at this newest of joint ventures. It's too soon for them to have finalized a site for this factory, but the companies say they plan to begin construction early next year. The battery factory will make pouch cells, with an annual capacity of 40 GWh.

"Honda is working toward our target to realize carbon neutrality for all products and corporate activities the company is involved in by 2050," said Toshihiro Mibe, president and CEO of Honda Motor Company. "Aligned with our longstanding commitment to build products close to the customer, Honda is committed to the local procurement of EV batteries which is a critical component of EVs. This initiative in the U.S. with LGES, the leading global battery manufacturer, will be part of such a Honda approach."

Earlier this year, Honda revealed that it was working with GM on a new range of affordable EVs using the latter's new Ultium battery platform and a flexible vehicle architecture. The first of these new Honda EVs is due in 2027.

Source - Ars Technica: Honda is the latest automaker looking to build a US battery factory

Right now any auto maker or parts manufacturer sees the writing on the wall for ICE.
 
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