Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (rel. 22nd March)

[Meteor_of_War]

Feel free to divulge what you didn't like about. I'd love to discuss and I'll respect your opinion.

While I understand where people are coming from, I honestly don't agree with most of the criticisms for this game. I think it was fantastic throughout. Most of the gripes people have I attribute to personal preference, comparisons to their previous games, or just some technical issues that can be worked around or patched. But judging it on its own as a game I think its just awesome, and its pretty widely praised from what I've seen. I'm confident to say now that its my new favorite FS game. Souls does RPG type gaemplay better obviously, and probably a better game overall objectively due to its depth. But Sekiro just suits my gaming tastes better personally.

Also, I think it was Drexion who predicted less than 10% would finish the game. I checked the Steam global achievements and I think its over 20% now that got endgame achievements.

 

[Lazy8s]

Feel free to divulge what you didn't like about. I'd love to discuss and I'll respect your opinion.

While I understand where people are coming from, I honestly don't agree with most of the criticisms for this game. I think it was fantastic throughout. Most of the gripes people have I attribute to personal preference, comparisons to their previous games, or just some technical issues that can be worked around or patched. But judging it on its own as a game I think its just awesome, and its pretty widely praised from what I've seen. I'm confident to say now that its my new favorite FS game. Souls does RPG type gaemplay better obviously, and probably a better game overall objectively due to its depth. But Sekiro just suits my gaming tastes better personally.

Also, I think it was Drexion who predicted less than 10% would finish the game. I checked the Steam global achievements and I think its over 20% now that got endgame achievements.

Oh it's certainly a good, possibly great game on it's own. I won't rehash any earlier criticisms only to say that I expected something much more inspired than Isshin, who felt like nothing more than a buffed up rehash of Genichero to me, who himself was waaay over used. I was super disappointed to walk into that field and see him standing there.

Some sequence of events bringing Lady Tomoe to the fore would have been much more exciting imo. Then have her summon the younger Isshin when she realizes she can't defeat you. It would have been in keeping with the story and opened the way for FS to do something more exciting and different without dragging a character into it that we've already sliced and diced.

Adding a 4th life to the final fight couldn't overcome the disappointment for me, and kind of solidified the other disappointments I had in the game.

That said, I don't know what time/design constraints FS faced getting close to the release date, so that may have played a part in how they finished it off. Overall I think it's a good, solid game, but it didn't have the wow factor others did for me.

edit:At the end though, personal preference is what it's all about. I love discussing games, but fully acknowledge that we all like/dislike certain things.

 

[Mangler]

**** G-man.

I seriously quit the game when he appeared for the last time, I could not believe that they would use him again.

 

[Meteor_of_War]

Oh it's certainly a good, possibly great game on it's own. I won't rehash any earlier criticisms only to say that I expected something much more inspired than Isshin, who felt like nothing more than a buffed up rehash of Genichero to me, who himself was waaay over used. I was super disappointed to walk into that field and see him standing there.

Some sequence of events bringing Lady Tomoe to the fore would have been much more exciting imo. Then have her summon the younger Isshin when she realizes she can't defeat you. It would have been in keeping with the story and opened the way for FS to do something more exciting and different without dragging a character into it that we've already sliced and diced.

Adding a 4th life to the final fight couldn't overcome the disappointment for me, and kind of solidified the other disappointments I had in the game.

That said, I don't know what time/design constraints FS faced getting close to the release date, so that may have played a part in how they finished it off. Overall I think it's a good, solid game, but it didn't have the wow factor others did for me.

edit:At the end though, personal preference is what it's all about. I love discussing games, but fully acknowledge that we all like/dislike certain things.

Yeah story wise it would have been cool if they brought out someone completely new and mysterious for the final fight. A Lady Tomoe reveal would have been interesting. I followed the story and enjoyed it but honestly I need to play it again and read some lore stuff to get it all, as there's a couple things I feel I didn't understand fully. I do understand though that you fight a young Isshin because Genichiro summons him using the mortal blade. I guess it makes the most sense, given how the story and characters played out. Although not terribly spectacular or unpredictable. I do think its justified though to fight him as the final boss since he's supposed to have been the most badass warrior in the Ashina Clan.

My praise of the game is mostly based on pure gameplay though, as that's what's most important to me. I feel it was so well refined and well paced. All the bosses, aside from maybe Mist Noble (lol), felt awesome to fight and totally fair and balanced once you learned the patterns. I don't know, I think its a subjective thing and just clicked with me so well since I love timing based fighting (parrying) and this game does it better than anything I've ever seen. Couple that with the ninja moves and equipment and holy crap I'm in heaven.

Who knows, maybe if we get DLC (likely) it will fill in the game to your satisfaction.

**** G-man.

I seriously quit the game when he appeared for the last time, I could not believe that they would use him again.

Well after the second fight at the castle lookout wasn't it expected he'd return again? At least it wasn't a full blown difficult boss fight with him for that last time. If anything he was just a warm up for Isshin Sword Saint.

 

[Lazy8s]

Yeah story wise it would have been cool if they brought out someone completely new and mysterious for the final fight. A Lady Tomoe reveal would have been interesting. I followed the story and enjoyed it but honestly I need to play it again and read some lore stuff to get it all, as there's a couple things I feel I didn't understand fully. I do understand though that you fight a young Isshin because Genichiro summons him using the mortal blade. I guess it makes the most sense, given how the story and characters played out. Although not terribly spectacular or unpredictable. I do think its justified though to fight him as the final boss since he's supposed to have been the most badass warrior in the Ashina Clan.

My praise of the game is mostly based on pure gameplay though, as that's what's most important to me. I feel it was so well refined and well paced. All the bosses, aside from maybe Mist Noble (lol), felt awesome to fight and totally fair and balanced once you learned the patterns. I don't know, I think its a subjective thing and just clicked with me so well since I love timing based fighting (parrying) and this game does it better than anything I've ever seen. Couple that with the ninja moves and equipment and holy crap I'm in heaven.

Who knows, maybe if we get DLC (likely) it will fill in the game to your satisfaction.



Well after the second fight at the castle lookout wasn't it expected he'd return again? At least it wasn't a full blown difficult boss fight with him for that last time. If anything he was just a warm up for Isshin Sword Saint.

That makes good sense M_O_W and yeah it's absolutely subjective. I'm sure you'll play BB one day and wonder why I praised it so highly

That's also was one of my concerns going into this at first. I prefer O&S, Kalameet, Manus type bosses where many others prefer fighting human/NPC type bosses. I kind of figured FS would deliver in a manner I would eventually enjoy though.

It's sort of the first of it's kind of game that I'm familiar with, and if the snippet I saw recently is anything to go by, FS is not done with this title yet.

I will buy, and enjoy DLC if/when released, but G-man better not be in it or I'll start bitchin all over again

 

[Meteor_of_War]

That makes good sense M_O_W and yeah it's absolutely subjective. I'm sure you'll play BB one day and wonder why I praised it so highly

That's also was one of my concerns going into this at first. I prefer O&S, Kalameet, Manus type bosses where many others prefer fighting human/NPC type bosses. I kind of figured FS would deliver in a manner I would eventually enjoy though.

It's sort of the first of it's kind of game that I'm familiar with, and if the snippet I saw recently is anything to go by, FS is not done with this title yet.

I will buy, and enjoy DLC if/when released, but G-man better not be in it or I'll start bitchin all over again

Yes, I'm one that definitely prefers humanoid bosses. Sekiro took the occasional red eyed knights from Demon's Souls and went hard with it and I loved it.

And yes, I will play BB someday for sure. I made a promise to myself few years back that I don't buy current gen consoles anymore (Nintendo is an exception) due to the massive backlog of games I have, and because most modern games get ported to PC. Its just the console exclusives I miss out on and have to play later down the road.

Due to my game hunting habits I know if I just wait, when I start looking for them I'll get a PS4 and tons of games for dirt cheap. I actually already picked up a handful of PS4 games on the cheap, just no console yet.

 

[Lurk]

seems like I've hit a snag with the game.

I'm delaying the fight on top of Ashina Castle because I find the enemy tactic learning mechanism a bit nerve-wrecking; 2 hrs to defeat an enemy, progress route for 15 minutes, and then the whole thing repeating itself. A hard-to-overcome unbalance as far as my concept of game enjoyment goes.
I spent probably three hours trying to fight Seven Ashina Spears and finally gave up just before punching straight through the screen. Undoable at my current level and with my reflexes.

Although you guys suggested to aim for the top of the castle and fight my second round with Genichiro, I've currently opened up diverse possibilities as far as paths to take:

I entered the caves only to find some kind of haunted enemy which will probably force me to fight for another two hours.

I took the elevator for Mt. Kongo but hardly dared to exit the first building knowing I would soon start going crazy again with some other ridiculously overpowered boss or mini-boss.

I took the road to the Sunken Valley, found what seems a dead end in Ashina Outskirts, and figured exploring the rest would simply lead to more fighting frustration.

These are probably signs I should quit a game I find absolutely beautiful but probably not worth loosing my sleep for.

Waiting for some advice, since you all seem to have very solid opinions on this title.
Might just not be my type of bread at this point, but I'm sure you know how hard it is to resist the call

 

[Meteor_of_War]

seems like I've hit a snag with the game.

I'm delaying the fight on top of Ashina Castle because I find the enemy tactic learning mechanism a bit nerve-wrecking; 2 hrs to defeat an enemy, progress route for 15 minutes, and then the whole thing repeating itself. A hard-to-overcome unbalance as far as my concept of game enjoyment goes.
I spent probably three hours trying to fight Seven Ashina Spears and finally gave up just before punching straight through the screen. Undoable at my current level and with my reflexes.

Although you guys suggested to aim for the top of the castle and fight my second round with Genichiro, I've currently opened up diverse possibilities as far as paths to take:

I entered the caves only to find some kind of haunted enemy which will probably force me to fight for another two hours.

I took the elevator for Mt. Kongo but hardly dared to exit the first building knowing I would soon start going crazy again with some other ridiculously overpowered boss or mini-boss.

I took the road to the Sunken Valley, found what seems a dead end in Ashina Outskirts, and figured exploring the rest would simply lead to more fighting frustration.

These are probably signs I should quit a game I find absolutely beautiful but probably not worth loosing my sleep for.

Waiting for some advice, since you all seem to have very solid opinions on this title.
Might just not be my type of bread at this point, but I'm sure you know how hard it is to resist the call

Well like I've said before, if you're not having fun don't force yourself to play. But if you're having fun, keep playing! Anyways, here's my advice if you decide to keep going:

If its taking 2 hours on a single boss there's no shame in searching up a guide video. Its always preferable and more rewarding to beat it on your own, but maybe for the first few tough bosses you'll need a little help. Ashina Genichiro is definitely the first actual "tough" boss. But if you overcome him, you will have acquired the skills to carry on. The game's difficulty curve is definitely designed to make you progressively better as you go, teaching you along the way. You've made it this far, and if you can beat Genichiro I'd say you can go the distance in this game.

Also, you have been acquiring prayer beads and upgrading your health and posture, right? Also, make use of the fire crackers. They are pretty overpowered with certain enemies in this game.

As for the other paths, the haunted guy (Headless) is a bit of a gimmick enemy. He's tough, but can be beaten rather easily using a couple different buff items - divine confetti and the mottled purple gourd which increases defense against terror. Come back later after you find that item which is in Mibu Village bought from a merchant.

Mt. Kongo is going to be a dead end for now, so only go that way if you want to explore for items and check it out. As for Sunken Valley, I'm not sure I know what dead end your referring to. You should be able to go pretty far all the way to the boss of that area (which is awesome, BTW).

I'd still just mainly suggest seeking a guide for that boss your on, and just practice your sword fighting and deflect skills. Study his attack patterns, and memorize how to react to them and punish him when he leaves himself open.

 

[Lurk]

Well like I've said before, if you're not having fun don't force yourself to play.

Fun and frustration. An explosive mix

If its taking 2 hours on a single boss there's no shame in searching up a guide video.

That's what I'm doing. I'm THAT bad

You've made it this far, and if you can beat Genichiro I'd say you can go the distance in this game.

tips?

Also, you have been acquiring prayer beads and upgrading your health and posture, right?

Yep. Got 4+2 prayer beads. I was sure the vault-over fighting technique was going to resolve my fight with Seven Spears dude but nada, nix

As for the other paths, the haunted guy (Headless) is a bit of a gimmick enemy. He's tough, but can be beaten rather easily using a couple different buff items - divine confetti and the mottled purple gourd which increases defense against terror. Come back later after you find that item...

thx

As for Sunken Valley, I'm ot sure I know what dead end your referring to.

when you arrive at the gorge or precipice, if you turn right and face two cannon guys then you can hop, climb, traverse and go through an opening that overlooks a small clearing from which you see distant scenery with some of the buildings you came from (not sure which ones). The game tells you that you are in Ashina Outskirts (if I remember correctly). In this area there are stone altars, a free prayer bead and to the right a water pool with icicles. There seems to be nothing else and no other place to reach.

 

[Meteor_of_War]

tips?

Learn the timing to deflect his flurry of sword slashes.
Block his jumping arrow shots, and wait a second and time a sidestep to dodge his slower standing arrow attack.
Use Mikiri counter for his thrust attack.
When he jumps to do a close range perilous attack, sidestep and slash at his side.

Most importantly though, you should stay on the defensive and need to be deflecting ALL his sword slashes with parry timing as this is the best way to build up his posture meter.

He has a second phase but I don't want to spoil you on that if you haven't got that far yet.

Yep. Got 4+2 prayer beads. I was sure the vault-over fighting technique was going to resolve my fight with Seven Spears dude but nada, nix

First off, that guy is susceptible to a sneak attack deathblow by using the environment to sneak around him. Make sure you are getting that before fighting him. While fighting him, he's very vulnerable to jumping on his head then getting a couple slashes on the way down whenever he's about to do an unblockable sweeping attack. Do this often to build his posture meter. Other than that Mikiri counter is a huge tactic to use against him. If you haven't mastered that ability yet you need to work on it. It is a VITAL technique in this game.

when you arrive at the gorge or precipice, if you turn right and face two cannon guys then you can hop, climb, traverse and go through an opening that overlooks a small clearing from which you see scenery from afar with some of the buildings you came from (not sure which ones). The game tells you that you are in Ashina Outskirts (if I remember correctly). In this area there are stone altars, a free prayer bead and to the right a water pool with icicles. There seems to be nothing else and no other place to reach.

OK, I know exactly where you are. Yes that's a dead end. Instead, you need to go left, rather than where you went right towards those two cannon guys (I think they are actually just riflemen?). I think you need to jump across to the other side of the chasm at some point to progress.

 

[SD-[Inc]]

when you arrive at the gorge or precipice, if you turn right and face two cannon guys then you can hop, climb, traverse and go through an opening that overlooks a small clearing from which you see distant scenery with some of the buildings you came from (not sure which ones). The game tells you that you are in Ashina Outskirts (if I remember correctly). In this area there are stone altars, a free prayer bead and to the right a water pool with icicles. There seems to be nothing else and no other place to reach.

There are a couple of different directions to go from the previous Shrine. You went a good way because you found a prayer bead. You need to go the other way to move forward.

 

[Lurk]

thx for all your help guys.
after 6+ hours with Genichiro where I was able to get perhaps halfway through his second phase, I looked for help online and found out he has a third phase. Nice, but no thanks.

So I decided to use a trainer and finally made all things epic about the game crumble in 5 minutes.
Needles to say, after two boring fights here and there with infinite health I finally resorted to delete my profile and uninstall. I think it was a wise decision for me, and actually the only one possible.

Glad you true shinobis could enjoy it for what it's meant to be
It was a nice ride for me too until it lasted, but I was at a point where it was stealing my time in an obsessive compulsive frenzy that made no sense whatsoever.
And actually my achievement with this game is having everything on my computer desk still intact
Only gripe at this point, having paid full price

Cheers and see you in some other game thread

 

[Meteor_of_War]

Like I said, if you're having more frustration than fun its wise to just move on from the game. Maybe someday you'll want to revisit it.

 

[Lurk]

Unfortunately mental illness, when serious, is not something you can cure overnight.

I couldn't stop thinking about the game and what an intense journey it had been.
I couldn't stop thinking about what I had done wrong and about all the lessons I had too easily forgotten as time went by.
I couldn't stop thinking about how stubborn, rash and impulsive I had been in facing an enemy for which I was not ready, convinced that endless repetition would bring results.

After giving in and opting for an easy way out, I immediately felt the burn of pride and tried to erase my guilt by erasing my past.

I was wrong, wrong all the way through. Only one road could be taken to try and regain the innocence I had lost.

I took a step back and decided to master the true arts of the Shinobi in the only way possible.

I reinstalled the game, deleted my only save and started it all-over again.

I swear an oath whereby I will get rid of the stain in my Steam achievement history and beat my enemy with my own hands as it was set in the path laid before me.

If this requires me to fight until the end of my days, then be it so.
If this requires me to step back again and return when my arts find me prepared, then be it so.
If this requires me to play No Man's Sky or Shadow of the Tomb Raider, or even Wet Girl on occasion, well, then be it so.

This is what I'll do.
I'll fight.
Regardless.
Relentless.
Endless.
Like a true Shinobi.

(Steam VAC ban permitting)

 

[Brainstew]

I finally beat the final boss the other day. After that grind I can't be bothered with the optional boss. I'll do a NG+ to see how it changes things up, but that's about it.

Fyi Lurk, the final boss makes Genichiro seem like a joke. I considered trading the game in several times. Apparently there are ways to cheese the AI and get it to loop though.

 

[Meteor_of_War]

Haha, that's the spirit Lurk! You obviously enjoy the game if you missed it. Just keep trying man, you'll get there.

The trick to the bosses in this game is you need to memorize their attacks and teach yourself how to react to them. Every single boss attack in this game has a defensive counter move to it. Whether it be deflect, step dodge right or left, jump up, jump back, etc. You just need to learn them. If what you are doing isn't working, do something else.

All the enemies are programmed a certain way. You just have to learn and memorize what they do, anticipate it, and punish them. Good luck.

 

[Lurk]

Fyi Lurk, the final boss makes Genichiro seem like a joke.

I'm sure. But Lurkiro shinobi has spoken

I considered trading the game in several times.

Which is probably what I'll end up doing anyway

Haha, that's the spirit Lurk! You obviously enjoy the game if you missed it. Just keep trying man, you'll get there.

The trick to the bosses in this game is you need to memorize their attacks and teach yourself how to react to them. Every single boss attack in this game has a defensive counter move to it. Whether it be deflect, step dodge right or left, jump up, jump back, etc. You just need to learn them. If what you are doing isn't working, do something else.

All the enemies are programmed a certain way. You just have to learn and memorize what they do, anticipate it, and punish them. Good luck.

I realized I wasn't dodging Genichiro's moves in the second phase. I was convinced that you could always time a Mikiri counter after the warning, but after restarting the game and training more extensively with Hanbei I understood that Mikiri only counters thrust attacks while sweep and grab require dodging!
I wasn't even aware of the basic A+A (dodge-jump+jump-kick) move, but I was able to wear Genichiro out in the first phase by parrying ALL of his attacks (yeah, after 6 hours...)

When training near the Dilapidated temple, the tutorials make you believe that you can dodge attacks by pressing B alone, while in reality it's always left analogue+B, do I stand correct?

Oh, and btw and on a more serious note, this game is just TOO GOOD, and even should I end up quitting early, my opinion will remain unchanged

 

[Meteor_of_War]

I realized I wasn't dodging Genichiro's moves in the second phase. I was convinced that you could always time a Mikiri counter after the warning, but after restarting the game and training more extensively with Hanbei I understood that Mikiri only counters thrust attacks while sweep and grab require dodging!
I wasn't even aware of the basic A+A (dodge-jump+jump-kick) move, but I was able to wear Genichiro out in the first phase by parrying ALL of his attacks (yeah, after 6 hours...)

When training near the Dilapidated temple, the tutorials make you believe that you can dodge attacks by pressing B alone, while in reality it's always left analogue+B, do I stand correct?

Oh, and btw and on a more serious note, this game is just TOO GOOD, and even should I end up quitting early, my opinion will remain unchanged

Well, better late than never learning about Mikiri Counter. Its only for countering thrust attacks. Its a SUPER important move to master, and the real trick of it is learning how to tell thrust attack from sweep attack in that split second. But this comes with practice. Seems you missed reading some early tutorial messages? But see, now you're learning.

Yes, that dodge and jump kick on their head move is also super important to learn in this game. Its an awesome counter move for sweep attacks on a lot of enemies. Doesn't work for every enemy attack, but for the ones it does it is very good. Again, you just need to memorize which enemy attacks you can use which counter move on.

On the side step dodge move, yes you have to hold the analog stick in the direction AND press the button. If not I think you just dodge forward or backward.

 

[Lurk]

incredible how it took me a couple of evening gaming sessions to get back to the point where I was before, at the top of Ashina Castle. I could get past all major enemies with three tries max, and that is outstanding for me and considering how bad I did on my first run.
Guess you really do 'git gud' as you play.

No way I'm getting back into the fight with Genichiro head first.
I'll roam and explore a little, trying to make my lessons worth, contrary to what I've done before.

A couple questions: was I supposed to use right away the seed found on one of the cliffs at the end of your first meeting with the snake? Seems like the game puts objects in places where they are expected to have a precise function.

Also, does Sekiro maintain a level structure similar to Dark Souls, whereby some areas you can see are actually only reachable further in the game?

I've met a couple dead ends; one of them right after beeting the chained ogre, a path greeting you with a sign that says something about not being able to behead the headless and warning you to go back.
Seems I can't progress beyond a grapple point and then I have to die to get back.

less spoilers possible, thanks

 

[Meteor_of_War]

incredible how it took me a couple of evening gaming sessions to get back to the point where I was before, at the top of Ashina Castle. I could get past all major enemies with three tries max, and that is outstanding for me and considering how bad I did on my first run.
Guess you really do 'git gud' as you play.

No way I'm getting back into the fight with Genichiro head first.
I'll roam and explore a little, trying to make my lessons worth, contrary to what I've done before.

A couple questions: was I supposed to use right away the seed found on one of the cliffs at the end of your first meeting with the snake? Seems like the game puts objects in places where they are expected to have a precise function.

Also, does Sekiro maintain a level structure similar to Dark Souls, whereby some areas you can see are actually only reachable further in the game?

I've met a couple dead ends; one of them right after beeting the chained ogre, a path greeting you with a sign that says something about not being able to behead the headless and warning you to go back.
Seems I can't progress beyond a grapple point and then I have to die to get back.

less spoilers possible, thanks

Yeah in all From Software games the more you play the better you get. Their games are always designed fairly so if you are not learning from your mistakes and improving there's something seriously wrong with your basic gaming skills.

On your questions, near the serpent encounter are you talking about that snap seed pick up? No, you don't use it right away. Those items are relatively rare and finite pick ups in the game, so its just another one they stuck in a tough spot to grab.

About level structure, yes pretty much whatever areas you can see (except far off mountain ranges and forests) you should be able to eventually access as long as they look like you should be able to.

The dead end after the chained ogre on the way to the headless is not a dead end. You should definitely be able to go that way. I think you need to make a running jump and grab a ledge somewhere. Its inadvisable to go that way yet though. That enemy is really tough without a particular item you can acquire later on in the game. I think I told you about that before.