Nvidia RTX DLSS/Ray Tracing Discussion

[Exposed]

Seems to be stating the obvious DLSS isn't as good as native 4k...well duh. No one expects any ray traced game to be playable at 4k native and DLSS assists with that, while providing a better image than 1440p native so RTX owners don't have to settle for just 1440p RTX on like we initially did with Battlefield 5.

With RTX on: 4k DLSS > 1800p upscaled > 1440p native.


Just last year the usual haters were jizzing over the fact RTX was playable only at 1080p. Then grudgingly still dismissed RTX when 1440p became playable with RTX on. Now DLSS makes 4k playable even if not native. But, Hardware Unboxed gotta keep these same peasants clicking their videos. Once they said checkerboard rendering would give roughly the same quality it became clear they just wanted the hater clickbait. Digital Foundry did a more indepth look into 4k DLSS and came out more impressed (and every other site for that matter since the new DLSS patch).

 

[Nunz]

It doesn't look better than 1800p upscaled in a majority of those scenes, though - that's the problem.

 

[Seyiji]

Now that is a well done video!

Judging by that video, 4K DLSS isn't that far off from 4K, but it really does seem like it's just .. not 4K. Running 4K DLSS seems to mean you're not running at 4K and it's just a lower resolution; which is obvious because it's upscaling, but can you really claim you're gaming at 4K with DLSS on? 6:55 vs 7:01 is a good comparison -- the 4K Native is far sharper than the 4K DLSS, but even the 1800p clip appears sharper, plus no shimmering on the wire that 4K DLSS seems to be plagued with.

What is DLSS really accomplishing if it's just making the screen look like a lower resolution? Can you really claim you're gaming at 4K while running DLSS? As of right now, it looks as if you could just run a lower resolution and have the same IQ + performance. The 1440P DLSS looks like it wasn't losing as much clarity compared to 4K DLSS, so maybe there's a win somewhere?

When people on Rage say they're running games at 4k with DLSS and RTX what they really mean is they are upscaling a lower resolution to 4k and using image quality killing machine learning trickery to do it.

 

[Exposed]

It doesn't look better than 1800p upscaled in a majority of those scenes, though - that's the problem.

Doesn't look worse either, its comparable according to this video. Which means DLSS is actually doing its job, giving you a better image than 1440p by upscaling to 4k so you don't have to run in 1440p RTX natively. Why mess with a custom resolution if you can just tick a box?

Also a big point is that you cannot use RTX with 1800p custom resolution with Metro Exodus.

 

[bill dennison]

you can't really tell what 4k dlss looks like from a 1080p youtube video

 

[Nunz]

Doesn't look worse either, its comparable according to this video. Which means DLSS is actually doing its job, giving you a better image than 1440p by upscaling to 4k so you don't have to run in 1440p RTX natively. Why mess with a custom resolution if you can just tick a box?

Also a big point is that you cannot use RTX with 1800p custom resolution with Metro Exodus.

Instead of pushing DLSS, why don't we just have the option to change the resolution scale .. ?? An option that has existed for years now. In some of the comparisons it does look significantly worse, most notably the shimmering on the cable in 6:55. That is egregious to me, and I'm curious why it's only appearing with DLSS enabled and not the native, 1800p upscaled, or sharpened settings. It just seems like people are OK with 4K DLSS, but those same people would never have run 4K @ 80% resolution scale, which is what DLSS appears to be comparable to. 4K DLSS on is not 4K. Might as well say you're gaming at 1440P

you can't really tell what 4k dlss looks like from a 1080p youtube video

I've seen it in person and played it, pre-patch and post-patch. It's still blurry, but definitely getting better. It was also on a 3440x1440 monitor, which apparently doesn't play as nice with DLSS as the 16:9 resolutions.

 

[Seyiji]

you can't really tell what 4k dlss looks like from a 1080p youtube video

Well if people would stop gatekeeping and actually post screenshots so we can all compare and see for ourselves it might be coo. That way we don't have to rely on youtubes.

Digital Foundry did a more indepth look into 4k DLSS and came out more impressed (and every other site for that matter since the new DLSS patch).

You must have missed the part where DF's Alex says it still pretty trash and that you should just use native res or the the internal resolution scaling.

https://youtu.be/eiQv32imK2g?t=1295

 

[acroig]

You must have missed the part where DF's Alex says it still pretty trash and that you should just use native res or the the internal resolution scaling.

https://youtu.be/eiQv32imK2g?t=1295

He's full of shite, DLSS works very well now that the vaseline was removed. The FPS boost is worth the minimal IQ distortion (if any).

 

[Nunz]

Yeah DLSS isn’t that bad. It certainly loses a good amount of clarity (still, even post patch) but at least it’s usable. DLSS prepatch was really, really bad. The FPS boost is worth it, but I think the question comes down to .. if DLSS and resolution scale are doing the same thing, why was DLSS pushed on us when we’ve had this option available for years.

The 1800p compairsons in that video looked better, imo. I’ll have to try it in person next time I’m home.

There’s no way you can claim the IQ distortion isn’t there though. I’m sorry but it’s blatantly more blurry than native 4K, as it should be considering it’s not 4K. It does seem to work better at 1440P though, which is interesting..

 

[acroig]

There’s no way you can claim the IQ distortion isn’t there though. I’m sorry but it’s blatantly more blurry than native 4K, as it should be considering it’s not 4K. It does seem to work better at 1440P though, which is interesting..

And 1440p is what I play at, not making any claims about 4K.

 

[Nunz]

At 1440P, I’m surprised you even bother with DLSS. FPS should be good enough for DLSS off, no? Even with RTX maxed.

 

[Exposed]

Yeah DLSS isn’t that bad. It certainly loses a good amount of clarity (still, even post patch) but at least it’s usable. DLSS prepatch was really, really bad. The FPS boost is worth it, but I think the question comes down to .. if DLSS and resolution scale are doing the same thing, why was DLSS pushed on us when we’ve had this option available for years.

The 1800p compairsons in that video looked better, imo. I’ll have to try it in person next time I’m home.

There’s no way you can claim the IQ distortion isn’t there though. I’m sorry but it’s blatantly more blurry than native 4K, as it should be considering it’s not 4K. It does seem to work better at 1440P though, which is interesting..

Again, nobody is making the claim it looks as good as native 4k because obviously it isn't native 4k. But you CAN'T play the game at native 4k RTX Ultra without acceptable framerates, so DLSS gives the option of an image quality between 1440 and 4k with a performance boost.

The image quality from native 4k is minor and a better option than just running 1440p native. Me and Bill both know this because we both have 4k monitors.

The DLSS resolution you're looking at isn't even 4k, it's 1440p widescreen. Find yourself a native 4k monitor and test, because DLSS is trained for each unique output.

From what i can see here, nobody is listening to actual Turing owners like myself, Acroig, Jimbobob, Omega, and Bill and just want to jump to their own conclusions. How about yall buy your own 2080tis and see fo yourself? NYCDarkness has plenty to go around, and for cheap!

 

[Nunz]

I have seen it for myself. Acroig games at 1440P (thought he had a 4K monitor) and I’ve already stated DLSS seems to perform better with less IQ loss @ 1440p; something I’m still curious about. The scenes in the videos all look better at 1800p. Again, if resolution scaling is giving us the same performance and IQ as 4K DLSS, then what’s the point of DLSS considering resolution scaling has existed for years and is pretty common?

There is no jumping to my own conclusion. I’ve played it myself, I’ve looked at numerous videos comparing DLSS on/off at multiple resolutions, and nothing about it is impressive or groundbreaking. It’s doing exactly what resolution scaling would do, and while I haven’t had a chance to test it out myself to see in motion with a lower resolution scale w/ DLSS off, I’ll be able to do that in a week or two.

It has nothing to do with hating or jealousy as you keep trying to make it out to be. I’m genuinely curious what the hell the point of DLSS is if all it’s doing is replacing a feature we’ve had in most modern game engines released in the past 5 years ..

 

[Seyiji]

From what i can see here, nobody is listening to actual Turing owners like myself, Acroig, Jimbobob, Omega, and Bill and just want to jump to their own conclusions. How about yall buy your own 2080tis and see fo yourself? NYCDarkness has plenty to go around, and for cheap!

Nobody is listening because you gatekeep and don't post screen shots to prove the video evidence wrong. Instead you tell us skeptics "it just works" and to go spend money without seeing proof that "it just works"

 

[acroig]

At 1440P, I’m surprised you even bother with DLSS. FPS should be good enough for DLSS off, no? Even with RTX maxed.

There is a 20+ PFS boost and in certain areas it's badly needed, especially with tessellation turned on.

 

[acroig]

Nobody is listening because you gatekeep and don't post screen shots to prove the video evidence wrong. Instead you tell us skeptics "it just works" and to go spend money without seeing proof that "it just works"

Screenshots is not the way to analyze DLSS, you have to see it in motion.

 

[Seyiji]

Screenshots is not the way to analyze DLSS, you have to see it in motion.

But the youtube videos are a lie according to some.

 

[Exposed]

Nobody is listening because you gatekeep and don't post screen shots to prove the video evidence wrong. Instead you tell us skeptics "it just works" and to go spend money without seeing proof that "it just works"

You mean like here where I go through all the trouble for you to say nothing?

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=34048531

Also, you're all up in these forums posting anything negative regarding Turing from since Battlefield 5. I posted my indepth analys there too, including showing 1440p 60fps was playable with RTX on.

I can do the same for Metro Exodus specifically for 4k, but look someone else did it for me...

https://wccftech.com/metro-exodus-update-shows-huge-improvement-nvidia-dlss/

But the youtube videos are a lie according to some.

He meant as in see in motion for yourself, not some youtube video where you pick and choose someone else's opinion to represent yours, and dismiss other contrasting videos as "shills".

 

[Exposed]

I have seen it for myself. Acroig games at 1440P (thought he had a 4K monitor) and I’ve already stated DLSS seems to perform better with less IQ loss @ 1440p; something I’m still curious about. The scenes in the videos all look better at 1800p. Again, if resolution scaling is giving us the same performance and IQ as 4K DLSS, then what’s the point of DLSS considering resolution scaling has existed for years and is pretty common?

There is no jumping to my own conclusion. I’ve played it myself, I’ve looked at numerous videos comparing DLSS on/off at multiple resolutions, and nothing about it is impressive or groundbreaking. It’s doing exactly what resolution scaling would do, and while I haven’t had a chance to test it out myself to see in motion with a lower resolution scale w/ DLSS off, I’ll be able to do that in a week or two.

It has nothing to do with hating or jealousy as you keep trying to make it out to be. I’m genuinely curious what the hell the point of DLSS is if all it’s doing is replacing a feature we’ve had in most modern game engines released in the past 5 years ..

Well you can't run Metro Exodus with RTX at custom 1800p for one.

Two, DLSS isn't about just upscaling. It's taking a 1440p image, taking a 4k image, comparing the two and brute force learning how to approximate the 4k image. That's different than just 1800p upscaling and has the potential to offer better performance and better IQ. You can already see this in Port Royal, DLSS looks better than 1800p upscaled. So this has the potential to transfer over to games. THAT is the point of DLSS and something much more promising than the simple upscaling you've been doing for years. We haven't even seen DLSS 2x yet which takes the native resolution for AI learning.

You keep saying the 1800p videos look better, but that's not what HW concluded with. They said it was on par. Like I and others have said before, 4k DLSS is offers a great performance boost at minor detail loss. My specific words were: I thought I'd run into performance issues with RTX Ultra/ Advanced Physics/Hairworks on at 4k but so far I'm surprisingly locked at 60fps. The minor detail lost with DLSS is not noticeable on my 65" screen unless you walk right up to the screen to look at intricate cloth detail you won't see at 3-5 feet anyway. Even then it's not even a blur, its as sharp as you would expect 1440p upscaled to 4k to be, with the benefit of virtually zero aliasing present.

Have you tested DLSS on a native 4k screen?

 

[Seyiji]

You mean like here where I go through all the trouble for you to say nothing?

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=34048531

Also, you're all up in these forums posting anything negative regarding Turing from since Battlefield 5. I posted my indepth analys there too, including showing 1440p 60fps was playable with RTX on.

I can do the same for Metro Exodus specifically for 4k, but look someone else did it for me...

https://wccftech.com/metro-exodus-update-shows-huge-improvement-nvidia-dlss/





He meant as in see in motion for yourself, not some youtube video where you pick and choose someone else's opinion to represent yours, and dismiss other contrasting videos as "shills".

I downloaded and looked at the images you posted in that thread compared them side my side by switching between them and comparing DLSS to native 4k the DLSS ones looked blurry and ****.

Also I did give you an for doing so. At the time it was probably the most I could do when I posted because I was dealing with family issues then. Sorry for not following up with a more indepth thanks for posting.

As for BF 5 you said yourself the Nvidia might have flubbed the DLSS training cause it still sucks and many tech reviewers have said the same thing as per the videos I posted.

As for Metro and seeing it for myself that's right back to the spend money suggestion on something that multiple tech reviewers have said isn't worth it compared to using the in game scaling options with no DLSS. Looking at the shot's posted on wccftech post patch it still looks like poop so I guess we're at an impasse.

Hopefully in the future nvidia gets it right before technology advances a gen or 2 and dlss becomes obsolete and abandoned which might come sooner rather than later since as you and others have said the faster games get with RTX the less DLSS is gonna be needed. Coupling that with the part where iirc the faster the game runs the more jank using DLSS on would get it doesn't bode well for it having much sticking power.

EDIT:
Just saw you above post I didn't realize you're using a 65 inch 4k tv of course you're not gonna see a noticeable difference since you're using a device that post processes and filters out most of the jank and crap you would get when looking for ****ery with the image.