grrrr.... there goes personal freedoms and the arts

V

vitocorleone

New member
So much for personal freedom and the liberal arts in america. Guns, rednecks, and big business are so much more important. We gonna have ourselves a Tek-san in office! Yeehaw! (Not that Gore is great, but he wasn't Bush).

The rest of the world thought they hads lots to make fun of in Clinton. Now they can pillage our Bush!

weep. weep.
 
The way I figure it is like this. People will see and experience for themselves how horrible Bush Jr. is, and this will kinda give them a slap in the face and wake them up. Hopefully then, in the next election, people will vote for someone who actually cares about us and has some sort of intellect. I personally think that Gore is no better, but at least he is not Bush. Both candidates are liars. Bush wants to take rights away from american citizens. Gore wants to do the same(but not as drastic). Bush wants to destroy our enviorment just to squeeze a few drops of oil from the earth, instead of figuring out ways to make America less dependent on oil. Bush and Gore our stubborn politicians who are afraid of change. Bush is more so then Gore. Bush wants to spend billions of dollars on Anti drug programs, when it is a proven fact that the war on drugs is a complete failure. Bush also wants to spend billions of dollars on millitary and the building up of the CIA. Also wants to illegallize abortion.
I personally think that Bush and Gore are two faced. Bush more then Gore. Bush has never had to work for anything his entire life. He is not for hard working people like you and me. He is for the priveliged. He wants to put religion back into politics. I can't believe people voted for this man. It is clear that the American society wants to get back to its conservative facists days of old. Good for you america. All I know is that in a year and a half, I'm moving to the Holland. America, Land of the Free... Yeah right
 
Wow,

I think I just found two people who might have HONESTLY been confused by a butterfly ballot.

The ignorance of the facts demonstrated by both posts is frightening.

Bush isn't my perfect candidate, but Gore is a socialist, and worse, a hopelessly corrupted narcissist whose only goal is the accumulation of power.

As a gun-owning, religious AMERICAN, I find my views of the USA to be *MUCH* more in-line with our founders than either of your views (as expressed in your posts).

Shame on liberals. Shame on those who twist the Constitution to protect murder as a "civil right". Shame on those who smear S*H*I*T on canvas and DEMAND public funding. Shame on those who defend NAMBLA and persecute the BoyScouts.

It's about time we got some good-old fashioned religion back into governance. The 1st amendment certainly does NOT define a "separation of church and state", regardless of the faulty, pro-atheist interpretation of activist judges.

Our founders understood that our representative republic was a perfect form of government for a "religious people", but "wholey inadequate for any other sort of people". That's a quote, btw, from our 2nd President, John Adams.

Looks like it only took us 200 years to prove him correct.

If you need help with your plane ticket to Holland, just let me know. I'll be happy to purchase a one-way ticket for you. Perhaps you'll be far happier in the world of legalized Pot & Euthanasia. I know I'd be happier if you were there.

Disrespectfully yours.

Arkhan

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If you died tomorrow, which way would you be headed? Today could be your last day. Repent.
 
And to demonstrate the difference between right-wing republicans and rationale human beings: let me say that I fully respect your opinion and believe you made a coherent argument despite your personal attacks. As you unsurprisingly lowered the discussion to name-calling rather than engaging in a lively political debate, allow me to respond in kind.

As to the butterfly ballots: I am a usability engineer and have tested hundreds of intelligent people, watching them struggle with software and documentation people consider "easy" to use. I, and others in my field, can absolutely guarantee that a substantial part of the American population - perhaps even the oh-so-rationale and perfect right-wing republicans - would make mistakes on that Florida ballot. A simple matter of poor design. Not to say it was right to challenge the ballots, but definitely a sign we need a standardized ballot and counting methods. I hope Bush will prove to be more a man than he has to this point (up to now he's been a sniveling, stammering, seemingly-dimwitted boy who's had everything handed to him... oh, wait. That's both candidates.)

Perhaps you forget that our founding fathers are dead and this is a very different world 200+ years later? The brilliance of these men was that they produced a document and code that could, if given the chance, grow with the nation. And so it has.

Abortion - right. Your wife/daughter is raped, so you force them to have a child no one wanted and then seek the death penalty (or just go and shoot 'em) for the rapist. Your wife/daughter will die if they do not get an abortion due to complications. Let 'em both die because abortion is murder. Easy to say that abortion is murder when you are a male, too, I might add.

Art - right. Conservative republicans don't have imagination or inspiration unless someone tells them what to do and what is right or wrong. I forgot. We should be spending money on the military and guns so we can go on our own Crusades. Killing people is so much more worthwhile than expanding and challenging the mind and soul.

"If it ain't the Bible, it's crap!". Yeehaw! Our way or no way. Children just don't have enough trouble in school, so let's segragate and discriminate based on participation in religious cermonies in the classroom. What a great idea! And since everyone should have a gun, and abortion is murder so we'll have lots of unwanted and neglected children in the classrooms, let 'em shoot their way to heaven!

Puh-lease.

Here's something I hope you can agree with me on: isn't it fascinating that we on this thread, much like the entire country, with such differing opinions, both live in and love the same country? I mean, here you despise people who dare think for themselves, and we despise people who cling to a work of fiction and claim it to be true. Believing in God is fine and dandy, but religion is the scourge of humanity - having killed hundreds of millions of people. More than abortion ever will! Can you say right-wing hypocrite?

Respectfully yours,

Vito
 
I made no attacks against YOU, only your ideas.

You however, have denigrated conservatives about 10 times in your reply. Most of which was straight out of the *liberal handbook*

I only said that if someone was so inclined as to move to Holland, I'd help pay for the ticket.

As for the butterfly ballot, my 7-year old's class understood the ballot perfectly. Are we to believe that thousands of ADULTS in Florida are simply *stupid*? I don't buy it. If you have ?'s about the ballot, you should ask.

Abortion is murder (IMO). If my wife/daughter were raped, I would want them to give the child away. It isn't the baby's fault. My wife agrees. That's the trouble with principles. If you have them, they are usually very inconvenient.

Most wars are about money. Generals and leaders may try to convince us that its about GOD, but that is simply a play for emotion. Shame on them too.

War sucks. I don't like war. War is bad. War is sometimes the only option remaining. No person of faith would enter a war lightly and the spiritual dilemna that combat brings is never easy to wrestle with.

I never said I want to push my faith down anyone's throat. Each person may choose to worship or not worship as they see fit. Free-will is a central theme in Christianity.

I never said I would force anyone's child to worship GOD. By the same token, I feel that the atheists are FORCING their non-faith down everyone else's throat on a daily basis.

Lets see: 86% of Americans *claim* to be Christians. SO, for the 14% who *might* take offense to a Nativity scene on public ground, we shouldn't have them. Instead of the majority trampling the minority, we have the opposite. What a marvelous improvement.

Pardon me while I send some money to stop the ACLU (Atheists, Communists and Liberals United) from bullying small towns and villages with lawsuits and threats of lawsuits.

The wonderful thing about your ability to NOT agree with me is that MILLIONS of people of faith have died in the preservation of this country's ideals. Somehow, I feel that I respect those sacrifices a great deal more than you might.

Only a spiritually dead person could claim that religion is the scourge of humanity, or do you mean Christianity? If you do, just go ahead and say so.

Sinners seldom enjoy being judged for their sins by anyone else. Thus, our current climate of moral relativism makes all those sinners feel oh-so-much better about themselves. Its hard to sleep at night with a guilty concience.

America may be a different country in 200 years, but for the most part, that is not a compliment.

Mankind, on the other hand, hasn't changed one bit in 6000+ years. We're still the same selfish, evil little race we've been since the Fall.

The problems our Founders envisioned coming to pass have done so. I find it amazing that they were so intuitive. They had a great understanding of basic human nature and *tried* to form a government that would withstand its people's attempts to pervert it.

Sorry, your arguments fly in the face of truth. Try again on the left coast, or the Northeast, and I'm sure you'll get a better reception. Here in GOD's country, you'll find a cool reception for your *ideals*.

Yours.

Arkhan



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If you died tomorrow, which way would you be headed? Today could be your last day. Repent.
 
Ok, your arguments came across as less personal this time and you made several good points. I, in turn, shall endeavor to do likewise.

A liberal handbook? Fascinating. If such a thing truly existed, and I had read it, I might take offense at that. I get just as tired of the far left as I do the far right. So, if I sounded like I came out of the liberal one, you truly sounded like you came out of the conservative one.

Butterfly ballots: I never said that people were stupid. You merely assume that that is the case. What is clear to one intelligent person is not always clear to another intelligent person. People have different backgrounds, different experiences, different ages, etc. that all play into it. I do agree with you about asking if you have any questions. However, some people may not have known they had made mistakes and therefore could not recover from them by asking.

Abortion is too hot an issue and something neither of us or our ideals would ever agree on, so I think I'll let that one alone.

I agree that war is bad. Unfortunately, unless you deny history, there is no denying that religious people, or, as you call them, "persons of faith", have killed bazillions of people just because they were different or had different ideas about Truth that were equally as valid. Your argument is hollow.

Forcing non-religion/god is just as wrong as forcing the opposite. I would wager we differ as to how we define "forcing". Free will may be a central theme, but if it's true, then a lot of Christians are hypocrites. We all have to live together, so one faith must not have dominance over another in this country we both love. And the only way so far to do that in public institutions is to prohibit it - that is not forcing atheism, merely common sense. If the students want to meet somewhere before or after school to engage in prayer, let them. Just as long as it is not sponsored by said public insitution.

The majority is not always right. After all, Bush got into office even though he didn't have the majority of the popular vote! History is filled with the majority being "wrong". A nativity scene on public grounds IS forcing one type of religion on people, where as not having such a scene forces nothing on people, not even atheism.

I agree somewhat the the ACLU - a great organization in theory - seems confused sometimes. But, alas, no more so than the NRA or other conservative groups that "harass and bully" people.

Most religions (some Eastern religions are truly peaceful - and don't just claim to be) are indeed a scourge, having done far more evil (e.g., killing) to humanity than good. Keep in mind that I'm saying religion is, not belief in a god or gods. Religion is not spiritual. Belief is spiritual. I don't need someone telling me how to think and how to be spiritual - I have free will and can figure it out for myself. I hold myself to a stricter standard than many "people of faith" that I've known - so it works both ways.

Tons of people not of faith have died to protect this country as well. Somehow, I feel I respect their sacrifice a great deal more than you might.

Evil little race? I don't believe it. We have an equal capacity for good as we do for evil. That I believe. Mozart, Shakespeare, and many many countless others have all done good. If you think we are evil as opposed to merely having the capacity, no wonder your judgement seems so clouded and sounds so closed-minded.

I'm sure there was more but I don't have time right now to continue. I truly enjoyed reading through your last post more than your first.

So, I think we can respectfully agree that we disagree. If you ever come out West (or East or just about anywhere else) and join the rest of the world outside of your little make-believe-realm of "GOD's country", I hope you realize how your *ideals* are regarded as backwater, provincial, and foolish here in reality.

Sincerely,

Vito

* The thoughts, arguments, etc. contained herein were solely my own and do not necessarily represent anyone else's.

[This message has been edited by vitocorleone (edited 12-14-2000).]
 
...they represent my views too.

Funny, today I go in the bathroom and I'm greeted with this message written on the wall:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Yes Bush won!
Get that nigger loveing Gore out
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'd be hard pressed to find a democrat scribbling nonsense like that in a professional workplace. Notice how our republican cant even spell "loving" correctly. Though I'm sure this isnt true, but this is the type of person that seems to always follow republican tickets.
 
Vito... Very well spoken views. Which I happen to whole-heartedly agree with.

Arkhan... Not particularly eloquent in your arguements. I happen to feel that anyone who thinks their views are the only views that are "right" and "good" and therefore they should be forced on everyone else is a travesty to the very freedoms that our country was founded on! Please, feel free to follow what you believe in, but don't for a minute think that I should bow down before what YOU think is "right" because you say so. Damned if I care whether YOU think i'm going to hell... for it is not for YOU to judge others.

Anyway, some people in this world can look upon something, find they may not like it or agree with it, but realize that it may have deeper meaning to another in this world. Others rather more shallow than that try and destroy (in one form or another) anything they don't understand. Perhaps you should evaluate upon which side of that line you lie arkhan. That will mean a whole lot more on your judgement day than any judgements you shower down upon those which you do not understand or agree with.
 
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