Thoughts on modern muscle

jimmyboy

jimmyboy

New member
I'm a big muscle-car fan. Have been since before I could drive. And therefore I've always wanted to have a nice SS Chevelle, a Z28, or something like that. However, I've also long been a fan of the more modern kind of muscle, like the 16-valve hi-perf four-cyinders and multi-valve sixes.

Years ago I had thought about getting an '88 Fiero GT (the best, and sadly, the last of that model), and dropping in one of those race-oriented Pontiac Super-Duty four cylinders. In my eyes, the styling is about as beautiful as a Ferrari, and it still looks fresh, even today. The really cool idea is that I'd replace the 8-valve OHV head with a Cosworth 16-valve head, and have myself a really fantastic little sports car. :cool: Of course, such an engine isn't "just" a replacement for the stock engine, since right now one of those Pontiac/Cosworth four-bangers runs about $10,000 (10k), if you can find it.

Unfortunately, I'm as broke now as I was then. :down: So that idea is still just an idea, but hey, ideas are fun, right? Plus, they're free! :D

I'm one of those guys who prefers a classy, powerful naturally-aspirated engine, to a super-charged engine. And an engine like that particular four-banger is right up my alley. So is the Olds Quad4, which is a very similar engine, yet which is much much more common-place, and therefore much less expensive. So that too is an option for a hi-perf Fiero, and actually many Fiero modders will use a Quad4. And I know that's a great hi-perf engine because I used to drive an Olds Calais with the high-output version of the Quad4.

OK, so here's an interesting thread about a super-charged Pontiac Super-Duty four,

As for the Pontiac/Cosworth version, here are some pics to whet your interest: :)



 
i liked the fiero gt looks wise, but they put the worst drivetrains in them... almost have to at least swap out the stock motor for it to be worth a damn... i almost bought an 89 i think fiero gt, maybe it was 88, was 1800 in great shape, black, but then i found my first rx7, so that was the end of that lol
 
Ristogod said:
Why couldn't you drop in some other 4 cylinder engine over those older GM engines?
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OverclockN' said:
4cyl and "muscle" should never be included in the same sentence.
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According to this (and other sources I've read), that Pontiac/Cosworth engine in 3.0 liter size can produce 300+ horsepower in a streetable form. Race versions produce more.

The Olds Quad4 can easily produce over 200 hp in stock form. I drove a W40 version for years, which was only around 180 hp stock, but could have easily been bumped up. The W41 version is even more powerful, and these engines get awesome gas mileage at the same time. Plus, I've never heard any other four banger sound like a high-revving Q4. :cool: Besides, a Q4 would likely be cheaper, less complicated, and at least as sturdy, as just about any other four cylinder.

Plus, many other four-bangers are just "other four cylinders". :) Part of the idea here is to not be same-ol'. :nope:
_TiTaNiuM said:
Most certainly less I would imagine.
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You might think so, simply because they're smaller-displacement engines, but if you read through the experiences of others who've actually done it, that's not the case. The Fiero engine bay will fit V6s and V8s just as easily, sometimes easier, depending on electronics and such.
 
I think were all aware of how much power can be derived from modern 4cyl engines these days with a turbo. A quick look at a stock STi and EVO proves your numbers right there.

I still don't like to think of them having anything to do with "muscle". It just doesn't sound right. I like to think of them more as a "tuner" car or something like that.

I've never found a Fiero appealing in any way, awful looking cars. I have an uncle though that is quite fond of them, he's rebuilt and repainted tons and tons and tons of them. It's a side business of his, restore them to new and sell 'em off.
 
the sunbird came with a turbo version of that engine, if you want to get more power out of it.

my old nissan pulsar (sunny/sentra/whatever over there) had the same family engine in it (GM family II, even though it was a nissan), which had some work done to it (10.2:1 compression, mild cam, remapped ecu, exhaust, intake, etc) but still only pulled 70kw atw. keep in mind that it is only a 8v, 1.8L engine, so even if you do heaps of mods you will be lucky to break 100kw atw without changing the head. with the head change though, you can make a heap more power.
one of the guys in a car club i am in modified his 18LE (same as my engine) with 2L crank and pistons, and a c20XE head (from the opel calibra), and that pulled just over 100kw atw with the only other mods being exhaust, aftermarket ecu, and high compression.
however, depending on what kind of gearbox the fiero has, you might be able to just get a whole calibra engine and bolt it up, if you can get calibra engines there.
alternatively, i beleive there was a fiero that came with a v6
 
OverclockN' said:
4cyl and "muscle" should never be included in the same sentence.
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i agree. a muscle car must have at least 8 cylinders. it doesn't necessarily have to make a lot of power (a lot of the old 'mild' v8's made less power than your average family car today), but it needs to have a big engine with a nice meaty sound
 
OverclockN' said:
What in the world does this mean?:confused:
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kw = power. 1kw ~ 1.33hp
atw = at the wheels, as opposed to a hub or engine dyno, so this figure is the lower than the others due to more drivetrain loss. that particular engine would have been putting out around 125kw at the flywheel.
 
OverclokN' said:
I think were all aware of how much power can be derived from modern 4cyl engines these days with a turbo. A quick look at a stock STi and EVO proves your numbers right there.
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True, but I'm talking about making power without a turbo or nitrous. The Pontiac and the Quad4 make lots of power with need for super-charging of any kind. To me, that's cool. :cool:
OverclockN' said:
What in the world does this mean?:confused:
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Everyone but Americans uses the metric system. The "kw" is kilowatt, and .746kw = 1hp.
 
squid said:
kw = power. 1kw ~ 1.33hp
atw = at the wheels
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I'm just used to seeing RWHP or FWHP rather than or saying "at the wheels". Never seen someone type atw... :lol:

True, but I'm talking about making power without a turbo or nitrous. The Pontiac and the Quad4 make lots of power with need for super-charging of any kind. To me, that's cool.
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Never seen a 4cyl make much horsepower without a turbo/supercharger. How much horsepower have you seen on average?
 
you can get high power NA 4 cyl's... if you have the cash.

there was a race engine for the nissan primera (sr20de) that made 320hp
 
OverclockN' said:
I'm just used to seeing RWHP or FWHP rather than or saying "at the wheels". Never seen someone type atw... :lol:



Never seen a 4cyl make much horsepower without a turbo/supercharger. How much horsepower have you seen on average?
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that depends on what you define as high output out of a 4 banger.
Some high output N/A 4 bangers:

-Toyota 1.8L 2ZZ-GE makes 170-190hp depending on application. (Corolla XRS 170, Celica GTS/Matrix XRS 180, Lotus Elise/European spec Toyota models 190)
-Honda Civic SI K20A 2.0L Makes 197hp
-Honda S2000 motor (2.2L?) makes some 240-250hp
-Nissan 2.5L makes 175hp
-GM Ecotec 2.4L makes 171hp
-That old GM Quad4 2.4L made 170-190 depending on year/application (190 on olds models, 180 average and 170 after 1992, 150 after 1995 when it was reworked enough times to merit a name change to 2.4 Twin Cam)

Just below 200hp is probably the norm for high output 4 cyl engines.

Boosted applications make more:
-GM Ecotec 2.4(?)L turbo to 260hp (Sky redline/Solstice GXP)
-Honda 2.4 turbo to 240hp (Acura RDX)
-Mitsubishi Evo i dunno what its rated at (anywhere betwee 276-400 i guess) but i think its a 2.0L
-Subaru Impreza WRX 2.5L Boxer engine (300-400hp)?
 
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squid said:
you can get high power NA 4 cyl's... if you have the cash.

there was a race engine for the nissan primera (sr20de) that made 320hp
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:lol:

300hp is just a start these days. Of course it depends on how much the car weighs, but 300hp... ;)


Honda S2000 motor (2.2L?) makes some 240-250hp
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That's the only one I could think of stock that made "decent" power out of an N/A 4cyl engine. Everything else was turbo. I was asking more what the average "modified" 4cyl car could expect without forced induction. It's obvious exhaust and all that crap won't do much, but what about heavily modified internals?
 
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For other "old-school" non-turbo fours, there are Porsche's 3.0 liter 16-valve from the 944S2, which produced over 200hp and 200lb-ft of torque, in stock form. The later version in the 968 had a variable-valve timing feature. I'm guessing that one's hard to find, and probably expensive, but would be a powerhouse. From the factory it made about 240hp

Also, BMW's 16-valve from the earlier M3s. Those were very similar to the Quad4 in specs, and again used no super-charging.

Olds W41:


BMW S14 engine:
 
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