Nvidia RTX DLSS/Ray Tracing Discussion

[Exposed]

Seems to be stating the obvious DLSS isn't as good as native 4k...well duh. No one expects any ray traced game to be playable at 4k native and DLSS assists with that, while providing a better image than 1440p native so RTX owners don't have to settle for just 1440p RTX on like we initially did with Battlefield 5.

With RTX on: 4k DLSS > 1800p upscaled > 1440p native.


Just last year the usual haters were jizzing over the fact RTX was playable only at 1080p. Then grudgingly still dismissed RTX when 1440p became playable with RTX on. Now DLSS makes 4k playable even if not native. But, Hardware Unboxed gotta keep these same peasants clicking their videos. Once they said checkerboard rendering would give roughly the same quality it became clear they just wanted the hater clickbait. Digital Foundry did a more indepth look into 4k DLSS and came out more impressed (and every other site for that matter since the new DLSS patch).

[Nunz]

It doesn't look better than 1800p upscaled in a majority of those scenes, though - that's the problem.

[Seyiji]

Originally Posted by Nunz

Now that is a well done video!

Judging by that video, 4K DLSS isn't that far off from 4K, but it really does seem like it's just .. not 4K. Running 4K DLSS seems to mean you're not running at 4K and it's just a lower resolution; which is obvious because it's upscaling, but can you really claim you're gaming at 4K with DLSS on? 6:55 vs 7:01 is a good comparison -- the 4K Native is far sharper than the 4K DLSS, but even the 1800p clip appears sharper, plus no shimmering on the wire that 4K DLSS seems to be plagued with.

What is DLSS really accomplishing if it's just making the screen look like a lower resolution? Can you really claim you're gaming at 4K while running DLSS? As of right now, it looks as if you could just run a lower resolution and have the same IQ + performance. The 1440P DLSS looks like it wasn't losing as much clarity compared to 4K DLSS, so maybe there's a win somewhere?

When people on Rage say they're running games at 4k with DLSS and RTX what they really mean is they are upscaling a lower resolution to 4k and using image quality killing machine learning trickery to do it.

[Exposed]

Originally Posted by Nunz

It doesn't look better than 1800p upscaled in a majority of those scenes, though - that's the problem.

Doesn't look worse either, its comparable according to this video. Which means DLSS is actually doing its job, giving you a better image than 1440p by upscaling to 4k so you don't have to run in 1440p RTX natively. Why mess with a custom resolution if you can just tick a box?

Also a big point is that you cannot use RTX with 1800p custom resolution with Metro Exodus.

[bill dennison]

you can't really tell what 4k dlss looks like from a 1080p youtube video

[Nunz]

Originally Posted by Exposed

Doesn't look worse either, its comparable according to this video. Which means DLSS is actually doing its job, giving you a better image than 1440p by upscaling to 4k so you don't have to run in 1440p RTX natively. Why mess with a custom resolution if you can just tick a box?

Also a big point is that you cannot use RTX with 1800p custom resolution with Metro Exodus.

Instead of pushing DLSS, why don't we just have the option to change the resolution scale .. ?? An option that has existed for years now. In some of the comparisons it does look significantly worse, most notably the shimmering on the cable in 6:55. That is egregious to me, and I'm curious why it's only appearing with DLSS enabled and not the native, 1800p upscaled, or sharpened settings. It just seems like people are OK with 4K DLSS, but those same people would never have run 4K @ 80% resolution scale, which is what DLSS appears to be comparable to. 4K DLSS on is not 4K. Might as well say you're gaming at 1440P

Originally Posted by bill dennison

you can't really tell what 4k dlss looks like from a 1080p youtube video

I've seen it in person and played it, pre-patch and post-patch. It's still blurry, but definitely getting better. It was also on a 3440x1440 monitor, which apparently doesn't play as nice with DLSS as the 16:9 resolutions.

[Seyiji]

Originally Posted by bill dennison

you can't really tell what 4k dlss looks like from a 1080p youtube video

Well if people would stop gatekeeping and actually post screenshots so we can all compare and see for ourselves it might be coo. That way we don't have to rely on youtubes.

Originally Posted by Exposed

Digital Foundry did a more indepth look into 4k DLSS and came out more impressed (and every other site for that matter since the new DLSS patch).

You must have missed the part where DF's Alex says it still pretty trash and that you should just use native res or the the internal resolution scaling.

https://youtu.be/eiQv32imK2g?t=1295

[acroig]

Originally Posted by Seyiji

You must have missed the part where DF's Alex says it still pretty trash and that you should just use native res or the the internal resolution scaling.

https://youtu.be/eiQv32imK2g?t=1295

He's full of shite, DLSS works very well now that the vaseline was removed. The FPS boost is worth the minimal IQ distortion (if any).

[Nunz]

Yeah DLSS isn’t that bad. It certainly loses a good amount of clarity (still, even post patch) but at least it’s usable. DLSS prepatch was really, really bad. The FPS boost is worth it, but I think the question comes down to .. if DLSS and resolution scale are doing the same thing, why was DLSS pushed on us when we’ve had this option available for years.

The 1800p compairsons in that video looked better, imo. I’ll have to try it in person next time I’m home.

There’s no way you can claim the IQ distortion isn’t there though. I’m sorry but it’s blatantly more blurry than native 4K, as it should be considering it’s not 4K. It does seem to work better at 1440P though, which is interesting..

[acroig]

Originally Posted by Nunz

There’s no way you can claim the IQ distortion isn’t there though. I’m sorry but it’s blatantly more blurry than native 4K, as it should be considering it’s not 4K. It does seem to work better at 1440P though, which is interesting..

And 1440p is what I play at, not making any claims about 4K.

[Nunz]

At 1440P, I’m surprised you even bother with DLSS. FPS should be good enough for DLSS off, no? Even with RTX maxed.

[Exposed]

Originally Posted by Nunz

Yeah DLSS isn’t that bad. It certainly loses a good amount of clarity (still, even post patch) but at least it’s usable. DLSS prepatch was really, really bad. The FPS boost is worth it, but I think the question comes down to .. if DLSS and resolution scale are doing the same thing, why was DLSS pushed on us when we’ve had this option available for years.

The 1800p compairsons in that video looked better, imo. I’ll have to try it in person next time I’m home.

There’s no way you can claim the IQ distortion isn’t there though. I’m sorry but it’s blatantly more blurry than native 4K, as it should be considering it’s not 4K. It does seem to work better at 1440P though, which is interesting..

Again, nobody is making the claim it looks as good as native 4k because obviously it isn't native 4k. But you CAN'T play the game at native 4k RTX Ultra without acceptable framerates, so DLSS gives the option of an image quality between 1440 and 4k with a performance boost.

The image quality from native 4k is minor and a better option than just running 1440p native. Me and Bill both know this because we both have 4k monitors.

The DLSS resolution you're looking at isn't even 4k, it's 1440p widescreen. Find yourself a native 4k monitor and test, because DLSS is trained for each unique output.

From what i can see here, nobody is listening to actual Turing owners like myself, Acroig, Jimbobob, Omega, and Bill and just want to jump to their own conclusions. How about yall buy your own 2080tis and see fo yourself? NYCDarkness has plenty to go around, and for cheap!

[Nunz]

I have seen it for myself. Acroig games at 1440P (thought he had a 4K monitor) and I’ve already stated DLSS seems to perform better with less IQ loss @ 1440p; something I’m still curious about. The scenes in the videos all look better at 1800p. Again, if resolution scaling is giving us the same performance and IQ as 4K DLSS, then what’s the point of DLSS considering resolution scaling has existed for years and is pretty common?

There is no jumping to my own conclusion. I’ve played it myself, I’ve looked at numerous videos comparing DLSS on/off at multiple resolutions, and nothing about it is impressive or groundbreaking. It’s doing exactly what resolution scaling would do, and while I haven’t had a chance to test it out myself to see in motion with a lower resolution scale w/ DLSS off, I’ll be able to do that in a week or two.

It has nothing to do with hating or jealousy as you keep trying to make it out to be. I’m genuinely curious what the hell the point of DLSS is if all it’s doing is replacing a feature we’ve had in most modern game engines released in the past 5 years ..

[Seyiji]

Originally Posted by Exposed

From what i can see here, nobody is listening to actual Turing owners like myself, Acroig, Jimbobob, Omega, and Bill and just want to jump to their own conclusions. How about yall buy your own 2080tis and see fo yourself? NYCDarkness has plenty to go around, and for cheap!

Nobody is listening because you gatekeep and don't post screen shots to prove the video evidence wrong. Instead you tell us skeptics "it just works" and to go spend money without seeing proof that "it just works"

[acroig]

Originally Posted by Nunz

At 1440P, I’m surprised you even bother with DLSS. FPS should be good enough for DLSS off, no? Even with RTX maxed.

There is a 20+ PFS boost and in certain areas it's badly needed, especially with tessellation turned on.

[acroig]

Originally Posted by Seyiji

Nobody is listening because you gatekeep and don't post screen shots to prove the video evidence wrong. Instead you tell us skeptics "it just works" and to go spend money without seeing proof that "it just works"

Screenshots is not the way to analyze DLSS, you have to see it in motion.

[Seyiji]

Originally Posted by acroig

Screenshots is not the way to analyze DLSS, you have to see it in motion.

But the youtube videos are a lie according to some.

[Exposed]

Originally Posted by Seyiji

Nobody is listening because you gatekeep and don't post screen shots to prove the video evidence wrong. Instead you tell us skeptics "it just works" and to go spend money without seeing proof that "it just works"

You mean like here where I go through all the trouble for you to say nothing?

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=34048531

Also, you're all up in these forums posting anything negative regarding Turing from since Battlefield 5. I posted my indepth analys there too, including showing 1440p 60fps was playable with RTX on.

I can do the same for Metro Exodus specifically for 4k, but look someone else did it for me...

https://wccftech.com/metro-exodus-up...t-nvidia-dlss/

Originally Posted by Seyiji

But the youtube videos are a lie according to some.

He meant as in see in motion for yourself, not some youtube video where you pick and choose someone else's opinion to represent yours, and dismiss other contrasting videos as "shills".

[Exposed]

Originally Posted by Nunz

I have seen it for myself. Acroig games at 1440P (thought he had a 4K monitor) and I’ve already stated DLSS seems to perform better with less IQ loss @ 1440p; something I’m still curious about. The scenes in the videos all look better at 1800p. Again, if resolution scaling is giving us the same performance and IQ as 4K DLSS, then what’s the point of DLSS considering resolution scaling has existed for years and is pretty common?

There is no jumping to my own conclusion. I’ve played it myself, I’ve looked at numerous videos comparing DLSS on/off at multiple resolutions, and nothing about it is impressive or groundbreaking. It’s doing exactly what resolution scaling would do, and while I haven’t had a chance to test it out myself to see in motion with a lower resolution scale w/ DLSS off, I’ll be able to do that in a week or two.

It has nothing to do with hating or jealousy as you keep trying to make it out to be. I’m genuinely curious what the hell the point of DLSS is if all it’s doing is replacing a feature we’ve had in most modern game engines released in the past 5 years ..

Well you can't run Metro Exodus with RTX at custom 1800p for one.

Two, DLSS isn't about just upscaling. It's taking a 1440p image, taking a 4k image, comparing the two and brute force learning how to approximate the 4k image. That's different than just 1800p upscaling and has the potential to offer better performance and better IQ. You can already see this in Port Royal, DLSS looks better than 1800p upscaled. So this has the potential to transfer over to games. THAT is the point of DLSS and something much more promising than the simple upscaling you've been doing for years. We haven't even seen DLSS 2x yet which takes the native resolution for AI learning.

You keep saying the 1800p videos look better, but that's not what HW concluded with. They said it was on par. Like I and others have said before, 4k DLSS is offers a great performance boost at minor detail loss. My specific words were: I thought I'd run into performance issues with RTX Ultra/ Advanced Physics/Hairworks on at 4k but so far I'm surprisingly locked at 60fps. The minor detail lost with DLSS is not noticeable on my 65" screen unless you walk right up to the screen to look at intricate cloth detail you won't see at 3-5 feet anyway. Even then it's not even a blur, its as sharp as you would expect 1440p upscaled to 4k to be, with the benefit of virtually zero aliasing present.

Have you tested DLSS on a native 4k screen?

[Seyiji]

Originally Posted by Exposed

You mean like here where I go through all the trouble for you to say nothing?

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=34048531

Also, you're all up in these forums posting anything negative regarding Turing from since Battlefield 5. I posted my indepth analys there too, including showing 1440p 60fps was playable with RTX on.

I can do the same for Metro Exodus specifically for 4k, but look someone else did it for me...

https://wccftech.com/metro-exodus-up...t-nvidia-dlss/





He meant as in see in motion for yourself, not some youtube video where you pick and choose someone else's opinion to represent yours, and dismiss other contrasting videos as "shills".

I downloaded and looked at the images you posted in that thread compared them side my side by switching between them and comparing DLSS to native 4k the DLSS ones looked blurry and ****.

Also I did give you an for doing so. At the time it was probably the most I could do when I posted because I was dealing with family issues then. Sorry for not following up with a more indepth thanks for posting.

As for BF 5 you said yourself the Nvidia might have flubbed the DLSS training cause it still sucks and many tech reviewers have said the same thing as per the videos I posted.

As for Metro and seeing it for myself that's right back to the spend money suggestion on something that multiple tech reviewers have said isn't worth it compared to using the in game scaling options with no DLSS. Looking at the shot's posted on wccftech post patch it still looks like poop so I guess we're at an impasse.

Hopefully in the future nvidia gets it right before technology advances a gen or 2 and dlss becomes obsolete and abandoned which might come sooner rather than later since as you and others have said the faster games get with RTX the less DLSS is gonna be needed. Coupling that with the part where iirc the faster the game runs the more jank using DLSS on would get it doesn't bode well for it having much sticking power.

EDIT:
Just saw you above post I didn't realize you're using a 65 inch 4k tv of course you're not gonna see a noticeable difference since you're using a device that post processes and filters out most of the jank and crap you would get when looking for ****ery with the image.

[Exposed]

Well why didn't you post your thoughts up? That's why I stopped no one added anything of substance for me to go through all that again. Besides you don't think I know you're trawling now with that response?

Tell you what, I can do the same for Metro. Only if serious though.

[Nunz]

Originally Posted by Exposed

Well you can't run Metro Exodus with RTX at custom 1800p for one.

RTX doesn't work with the resolution scaling available in Metro options? Because HWU seems to have it working fine. Custom resolutions are a thing of the past, almost every modern game engine is offering resolution scaling as part of graphic options.

Two, DLSS isn't about just upscaling. It's taking a 1440p image, taking a 4k image, comparing the two and brute force learning how to approximate the 4k image. That's different than just 1800p upscaling and has the potential to offer better performance and better IQ. You can already see this in Port Royal, DLSS looks better than 1800p upscaled. So this has the potential to transfer over to games. THAT is the point of DLSS and something much more promising than the simple upscaling you've been doing for years. We haven't even seen DLSS 2x yet which takes the native resolution for AI learning.

It has the potential, yes. DLSS may look better in Port Royale but that is a scenario that is exactly the same every time. No game will ever offer that and it's impossible for DLSS to perform the same way it does in a synthetic benchmark as actual real-world gaming. DLSS 2x may be the way of the future, sure.

You keep saying the 1800p videos look better, but that's not what HW concluded with. They said it was on par.

Weren't you just complaining that people are just parroting what the clickbait videos are saying? Now I'm wrong for having a different opinion than those hater videos come on. Looking at the video itself and taking some time to really look at the comparisons, the 1800p slides were flat out better. Added with some sharpening, and now we're really talking. Maybe it has to do with Youtube quality, that could certainly be it. I will try the scaling myself next time I'm home so I can do my own testing on it, and I'll post back.

Like I and others have said before, 4k DLSS is offers a great performance boost at minor detail loss. My specific words were: I thought I'd run into performance issues with RTX Ultra/ Advanced Physics/Hairworks on at 4k but so far I'm surprisingly locked at 60fps. The minor detail lost with DLSS is not noticeable on my 65" screen unless you walk right up to the screen to look at intricate cloth detail you won't see at 3-5 feet anyway.

I mean, at that screen size, and that distance, I have a hard time believing you'd find much issue with the image even with MLAA or some other blur-ridden form of AA. You're kind of the best scenario for DLSS - the detail you're losing with DLSS on @ 4K isn't noticeable because you're too far from the screen to see it even when it's there. For those on the ~30" monitors @ 4K, who are sitting at a normal viewing distance .. I'm not sure it's the same case scenario for them. Would love to see a pic of your setup

Even then it's not even a blur, its as sharp as you would expect 1440p upscaled to 4k to be, with the benefit of virtually zero aliasing present.

I'd agree it's less of a blur, especially post-patch in Metro. It feels more like ... a smudge, I suppose. DLSS seems to be more effective on smaller resolutions (referring to 1440p, not sure about 1080p?) than it does at 4K. 1440p w/ DLSS looks like actual antialiasing, with no blur added; it's impressive, if anything DLSS is adding sharpness, rather than taking it away as it appears to @ 4K.

Have you tested DLSS on a native 4k screen?

No. I've only tried it @ 3440x1440, which it does seem to do a decent job; at least in terms of clarity post-patch, it gives a sharper image than what DLSS seems to be doing @ 4K per videos.

I'm not trying to bash DLSS or make it out to be a useless feature. DLSS 2x certainly will be impressive. My only argument is that DLSS is being pushed out in a form that doesn't really do much that we didn't already have available to us in terms of resolution scaling. I know you have said that custom resolutions break RTX, but using the in-game resolution scaler isn't breaking RTX, at least from the HWU video. Does BF5 react differently? If so, that's more an issue with Frostbite/DICE.

[logical]

Lets talk about the implementation and worth of DLSS and Ray Tracing!

[Nunz]

Originally Posted by acroig

There is a 20+ PFS boost and in certain areas it's badly needed, especially with tessellation turned on.

Strange! I was seeing really good numbers @ 3440x1440 w/ everything maxed, DLSS off. Maybe it was the area I was in? It was still early in the game, but outdoors. On my setup @ 1440p (can't compare w/ you because TITAN X (Pascal)) I'm still pretty early in the game as well and I'm capped at 82 usually with some drops into the 70s at times. DX11 performs better than DX12, as usual though .. lol

[acroig]

Originally Posted by Nunz

Strange! I was seeing really good numbers @ 3440x1440 w/ everything maxed, DLSS off. Maybe it was the area I was in? It was still early in the game, but outdoors. On my setup @ 1440p (can't compare w/ you because TITAN X (Pascal)) I'm still pretty early in the game as well and I'm capped at 82 usually with some drops into the 70s at times. DX11 performs better than DX12, as usual though .. lol

There are certain portions in the desert area and others where the FPS tanked to the upper 40's at max without DLSS on.

[Exposed]

Oh hi gais!

[Seyiji]

Originally Posted by Exposed

Oh hi gais!

Oi wots going on is dis thread...

Originally Posted by Exposed

Well why didn't you post your thoughts up? That's why I stopped no one added anything of substance for me to go through all that again. Besides you don't think I know you're trawling now with that response?

Tell you what, I can do the same for Metro. Only if serious though.

Like I said in my reply I was dealing with family issues at that time.

Also no trolling just 15+ years of being with Nvidia clouding my resolve

[Nunz]

Originally Posted by acroig

There are certain portions in the desert area and others where the FPS tanked to the upper 40's at max without DLSS on.

Gotcha! Can’t wait to see those areas. Not sure why but I’ve been playing small amounts at a time. The game just hasn’t held my attention and really sucked me in the way the other two did.

[Exposed]

Originally Posted by Nunz

RTX doesn't work with the resolution scaling available in Metro options? Because HWU seems to have it working fine. Custom resolutions are a thing of the past, almost every modern game engine is offering resolution scaling as part of graphic options.

Metro won't allow RTX/DLSS together outside of their supported resolutions. Thats why their comparisons were DLSS only.

It has the potential, yes. DLSS may look better in Port Royale but that is a scenario that is exactly the same every time. No game will ever offer that and it's impossible for DLSS to perform the same way it does in a synthetic benchmark as actual real-world gaming. DLSS 2x may be the way of the future, sure.

For Port Royale, they got DLSS working up to snuff. With a full game, they are going to need alot more processing time.

Keep in mind regular AI upscaling on static images (nothing to do with Nvidia) takes hours/ DAYS with supercomputing. So for a full game that will be ambitious. That's why we will see further patches as the months go by for DLSS with more and more training time and probably why we saw **** results at first because they wanted to get something out.

Remember the neural network isn't running a single algorithm. Otherwise that would just be regular AA. The reason DLSS runs on tensor cores because it needs to run the AI for whatever area/scene you're in.

Weren't you just complaining that people are just parroting what the clickbait videos are saying? Now I'm wrong for having a different opinion than those hater videos come on. Looking at the video itself and taking some time to really look at the comparisons, the 1800p slides were flat out better. Added with some sharpening, and now we're really talking. Maybe it has to do with Youtube quality, that could certainly be it. I will try the scaling myself next time I'm home so I can do my own testing on it, and I'll post back.

I don't need to look at youtube videos, I have the game running on my display at 4k. 4k DLSS is superior to native 1440p with RTX on. I don't need to run a custom resolution if 4k DLSS is on par. I'm sure the next DLSS patch will make the image quality even better than it is now.

As for sharpening, well that can be done for any game. Including games already running DLSS, as SirPauly pointed out prior. Which incidentally proved DLSS isn't applying a sharpening filter by the way, but actually running a more robust upscaling implementation.

I mean, at that screen size, and that distance, I have a hard time believing you'd find much issue with the image even with MLAA or some other blur-ridden form of AA. You're kind of the best scenario for DLSS - the detail you're losing with DLSS on @ 4K isn't noticeable because you're too far from the screen to see it even when it's there. For those on the ~30" monitors @ 4K, who are sitting at a normal viewing distance .. I'm not sure it's the same case scenario for them. Would love to see a pic of your setup

This is actually the best case for 4k. At 65 inch native 4k I can see intricate 4k details and all AA flaws.

What I'm seeing in motion is that 4k DLSS, even though I know is 1440p upscaled, isn't losing alot of detail compared to 4k native. I had the opportunity to start the game after the post DLSS patch and the first thing I did was check 4k native vs 4k DLSS. Yes 4k native is obviously better, but with advanced physics/RTX/tesselation/hairworks, the 4k performance just slacking a bit. DLSS gave me 60fps locked with much better anti-aliasing and very minor lost of acute details, details not visible unless you put your nose almost right up to the screen, like the cloth detail zoomed in screenshots Seyiji posted earlier.

It's not just me, it's Bill also. And Acroig for his 1440 case. The difference is a molehill, not a mountain.

I'd agree it's less of a blur, especially post-patch in Metro. It feels more like ... a smudge, I suppose. DLSS seems to be more effective on smaller resolutions (referring to 1440p, not sure about 1080p?) than it does at 4K. 1440p w/ DLSS looks like actual antialiasing, with no blur added; it's impressive, if anything DLSS is adding sharpness, rather than taking it away as it appears to @ 4K.

Any blur should be less noticeable at 4k, simply for the fact there's more pixels to work with. This again is something you would need to see in motion, on an actual native 4k screen.

No. I've only tried it @ 3440x1440, which it does seem to do a decent job; at least in terms of clarity post-patch, it gives a sharper image than what DLSS seems to be doing @ 4K per videos.

That's still only 1440p widescreen. Essentially for me to do the same test (which I did), I would need to run 1440p DLSS on my setup. I did that, I could notice a drop off from 4k DLSS. I'm not using a cheap display either, I'm on a high end LG which is better than most computer monitors out there. I don't even think there's a Gsync monitor out yet with the same rich color gamut/HDR.

I'm not trying to bash DLSS or make it out to be a useless feature. DLSS 2x certainly will be impressive. My only argument is that DLSS is being pushed out in a form that doesn't really do much that we didn't already have available to us in terms of resolution scaling. I know you have said that custom resolutions break RTX, but using the in-game resolution scaler isn't breaking RTX, at least from the HWU video. Does BF5 react differently? If so, that's more an issue with Frostbite/DICE.

That would be a question for the developers. I don't know why RTX/DLSS is stringent on resolution, but it kind of makes sense. If traditional image upscaling takes hours/days, then imagine if you "lowered" the resolution on that same image...you'd have to run the upscaling AI network on that image all over again! Presumably similar restrictions would be in place for DLSS.

[acroig]

Originally Posted by Nunz

Gotcha! Can’t wait to see those areas. Not sure why but I’ve been playing small amounts at a time. The game just hasn’t held my attention and really sucked me in the way the other two did.

I really liked it. Same Metro formula but enjoyed the different play areas.