Nvidia RTX DLSS/Ray Tracing Discussion

[acroig]

Way to start shite up!

[Exposed]

Nobody seems to be interested (in FSR) though.

[Trunks0]

Originally Posted by SIrPauly

I don't know, this author is all over the place but good to see some subjective awareness for Dlss, Fsr and specific sharpening tools and filters -- even Reshade did get some attention.

https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/sharpen...s-dlss-22-more

Um... I think this article is getting allot of things mixed up and wrong. Just quickly...

Super Sampling - Neither DLSS or FSR are Super-Sampling. But DLSS does use it as reference point for reconstruction.
RIS - Does zero AA, never claimed to, and does work on DX11 titles (I use it in Apex: Legends on the daily. See AMD's official page here. Which list's DX11 support.).
FSR - Also doesn't do any Anti-Aliasing either. It's an up-scaler and relies on whatever AA tech the engine use's.
DLSS - Does not do per-game training anymore with 2.0 and newer.

Liked seeing re-shade and it's nVidia Freestyle counter part getting in on the comparison.

[Trunks0]

The comparison shots are pretty cool though

[demo]

I didn't realise FSR didn't apply some sort of AA process, that's a bit rough..

[NIGELG]

Originally Posted by Exposed

Nobody seems to be interested (in HATING AMD/FSR)like me though.

Fixed that to address your AMD hate.

[Exposed]

Originally Posted by NIGELG

Fixed that to address your AMD hate.

That's rich coming from you, the biggest Nvidia/Intel hater on the planet for the last decade until you had no choice but to upgrade to "the dark side"

[Nagorak]

Originally Posted by demo

I didn't realise FSR didn't apply some sort of AA process, that's a bit rough..

FSR just tries to reconstruct the original image as closely as possible. You can run with AA on in addition to it.

[NIGELG]

Originally Posted by Exposed

That's rich coming from you, the biggest Nvidia/Intel hater on the planet for the last decade until you had no choice but to upgrade to "the dark side"

Who said I hate Intel? I haven't used an AMD processor in more than 8 years.

This is a RTX/DLSS thread . Go and crap on AMD in the AMD sub forum.

There is an FSR thread there.

[Trunks0]

Originally Posted by demo

I didn't realise FSR didn't apply some sort of AA process, that's a bit rough..

Yup. But it was kinda smart. If AMD had tried to do a post processing AA without temporal data... it likely wouldn't have looked very good.

[Exposed]

Originally Posted by NIGELG

Who said I hate Intel? I haven't used an AMD processor in more than 8 years.

This is a RTX/DLSS thread . Go and crap on AMD in the AMD sub forum.

There is an FSR thread there.

Yes, this is an RTX/DLSS thread, you know the one I created a long time ago and have long since contributed? So I can post a meme now and then, because even my memes have some basis of truth

Do you actually want to discuss FSR vs DLSS or do you just want to "fix" posts (aka trolling)?

[demo]

Originally Posted by Trunks0

Yup. But it was kinda smart. If AMD had tried to do a post processing AA without temporal data... it likely wouldn't have looked very good.

So basically, if a game has a resolution scaling option, it will produce the same result as FSR??

[Exposed]

Originally Posted by demo

So basically, if a game has a resolution scaling option, it will produce the same result as FSR??

Basically yes but FSR includes a sharpening filter. Which is why adding sharpening on top of FSR will tend to give oversharpening artifacts.

[Trunks0]

Originally Posted by demo

So basically, if a game has a resolution scaling option, it will produce the same result as FSR??

Originally Posted by Exposed

Basically yes but FSR includes a sharpening filter. Which is why adding sharpening on top of FSR will tend to give oversharpening artifacts.

erhm no. FSR does do some work to retain more detail and does edge reconstruction. Which is why it looks better than typical upscaled results. But Exposed is probably right, if you layered more sharpening on top, it could just get that overly sharpened look.

More detail on how Super Resolution works.
https://gpuopen.com/fidelityfx-superresolution/

[Sound_Card]

Found the new JethroBodine, aka rollo.
Btw, FSR looks pretty good, much better than what critics said it would be. Works on games I play and developer adoption is shockingly impressive.

[Sound_Card]

Originally Posted by SIrPauly

Can't you give some credit to Dlss? Without Dlss would there even be a Fsr from Amd? They both need each other to compete and try to innovate for their customers.

Is this the real SIrPauly?

Dear Nvida,
Thank you for making DLSS. Even though it was closed and you could have opened it and cornered the technology completely, even if the open version would not have access to tensor cores, it prompted AMD to make a version of their own. This FSR is really nice. Consoles are probably going to enjoy it too. Graphics cards are serious business and really trivial arguments take place over them like political parties. Now we are going to have huge FSR vs DLSS wars for years to come.

PS: please make better linux drivers, but thanks again.

[Sound_Card]

Relevant as opposed to what? For how much they are selling cards, they can piss off.

[bill dennison]

Originally Posted by SIrPauly

Pretty tough to find value from either company based on demand, pandemic and mining. Don't know where the tipping point is with pricing where it is too much. Never thought gamers would be so eager to shell out $1000+ for a gpu from both companies and personally still in the sweet spot pricing mentality.


Nvidia and Amd are right on target with their pricing and improving their Asp's because damn, there is a willing market eager to pay.

hopefully bitcoin will drop back to 2000 or less and mining will die for a few years till the new chip fabs are up and running
......

NV raped the 3080 ti with it's MSRP the FE should have been 999 and the after markets topped out at 1400 like the 2080 ti

at these prices i will wait on q1 or q2 next year and AMD RDNA 3, both AMD & NV failed this gen .

can't buy a GPU or lumber to rebuild the big shed this year

[Seyiji]

Originally Posted by SIrPauly

Pretty tough to find value from either company based on demand, pandemic and mining. Don't know where the tipping point is with pricing where it is too much. Never thought gamers would be so eager to shell out $1000+ for a gpu from both companies and personally still in the sweet spot pricing mentality.


Nvidia and Amd are right on target with their pricing and improving their Asp's because damn, there is a willing market eager to pay.

Stimulus checks make for some fast and loose economics :3

[Sound_Card]

Originally Posted by SIrPauly

An interesting take on a Q&A with a developer:


Edge of Eternity Tech Q&A – Midgar CEO on AMD FSR vs NVIDIA DLSS, PS5 vs XSX and More

https://wccftech.com/edge-of-eternit...-xsx-and-more/

Quality-wise, when there is a lot of pixel info available for upscaling to 4K, both technologies give amazing results, and I have a hard time seeing differences between them. I’d even say that I slightly prefer the FSR for 4K resolution since it doesn’t introduce any artifacts/minor blurriness that DLSS can sometimes introduce. For lower resolutions like upscaling to 1080p or 720p, I think DLSS gives a better result since it can reconstruct parts of missing details due to the nature of the technique. That said, I'm playing Edge of Eternity on a GPD Win3 (Intel APU), and using FSR to upscale to 720p gives a very similar result to native on a small screen like that and allows 60 FPS gameplay.

I was looking at a 3060ti, now I don't want it anymore.

[Trunks0]

Originally Posted by Sound_Card

Quality-wise, when there is a lot of pixel info available for upscaling to 4K, both technologies give amazing results, and I have a hard time seeing differences between them. I’d even say that I slightly prefer the FSR for 4K resolution since it doesn’t introduce any artifacts/minor blurriness that DLSS can sometimes introduce. For lower resolutions like upscaling to 1080p or 720p, I think DLSS gives a better result since it can reconstruct parts of missing details due to the nature of the technique. That said, I'm playing Edge of Eternity on a GPD Win3 (Intel APU), and using FSR to upscale to 720p gives a very similar result to native on a small screen like that and allows 60 FPS gameplay.

I was looking at a 3060ti, now I don't want it anymore.

I wouldn't go that far. Remember that the 3060Ti can also use FSR. So if a game had both your golden to choose whatever you like.

DLSS is the perfect tech for something like a RTX XX60 series especially. Allowing the card to make a pretty minor compromise to punch way above it's weight.

[Nunz]

Originally Posted by Sound_Card

Quality-wise, when there is a lot of pixel info available for upscaling to 4K, both technologies give amazing results, and I have a hard time seeing differences between them. I’d even say that I slightly prefer the FSR for 4K resolution since it doesn’t introduce any artifacts/minor blurriness that DLSS can sometimes introduce. For lower resolutions like upscaling to 1080p or 720p, I think DLSS gives a better result since it can reconstruct parts of missing details due to the nature of the technique. That said, I'm playing Edge of Eternity on a GPD Win3 (Intel APU), and using FSR to upscale to 720p gives a very similar result to native on a small screen like that and allows 60 FPS gameplay.

I was looking at a 3060ti, now I don't want it anymore.

Yeah whoever wrote that is smoking crack.

[Trunks0]

Originally Posted by Nunz

Yeah whoever wrote that is smoking crack.

it's the developer making a pretty uncontroversial and often said statement. FSR isn't likely to introduce much artifacting due to it's far simpler methods. Where as DLSS might, as it's trying to reconstruct and they are noticing the introduced artifacting. Of course they notice, they are the developers. As he's basically pointing out the only thing he could notice as they found them extremely close @ 4k.

But as soon as you drop to a lower resolution than 4k, DLSS wins. As that reconstruction can now rebuild information otherwise lost in a sea of aliasing. Something FSR doesn't do. And any artifacting is nothing in comparison to the gains you get from DLSS.

Soundcard is the one making a reach based on a pretty uncontroversial response from a developer.

[SirBaron]

Originally Posted by Nunz

Yeah whoever wrote that is smoking crack.

Powerful, powerful crack.

[Nunz]

Originally Posted by SirBaron

Powerful, powerful crack.

Indeed

[Trunks0]

I think your seeing that from a user perspective and this is a developers perspective. For them it's different. Look at footage of the game. Pretty heavy on particle effects as it's a JRPG styled game. Which they probably spent allot of time refining into the visual style you see.

Now they go to to implement up-scaling tech. DLSS probably first as it's been around longer and FSR way later. So there persepctive is probably gonna go something like....

DLSS
You implement DLSS and what happens? I bet all those particle effects blurred and trailed like mad. So you had to spend time figuring out how to add motion vector data to those particle effects and others to prevent it. Probably cleared up allot, but not entirely. So now every time they look at DLSS, they are going to see the ghosting and artifacts they have been trying to clean up.

FSR
You implement FSR and it didn't change anything. It just up scaled relatively cleanly and leaving the game's original look. None of the experience you had with DLSS.

Then you sit down for an interview and, well you got to read a pretty expected response no?

[Exposed]

FSR is only really feasible for 4k users quality wise, on the highest preset. Even then it's still only a spatial upscaler so it's never going to give the same level of quality that DLSS 2.0+ can. Ypu can hide this drawback with games with lack of contrast, texture detail, etc.. And amusingly that's exactly the kind of games we see FSR enabled for currently.

Less than 4k and less than the Ultra quality FSR really falls flat on its face. It's just the nature of the upscaler.

I don't really buy the DLSS is more complicated to implement than FSR because it really isn't. Anyone working on an Unreal engine game can implement it easily, like the game Pumpkin Jack that has a single creator/developer. A studio with a larger dev team isn't going to break a sweat any more than FSR regardless of engine used.

I think the drawback of not really being useable at 1440p or lower presets is going to hurt FSR in the long run and eventually AMD will need to turn to machine learning. If a game runs both DLSS 2.0 and FSR and you have a low end 2060, you're going to see far superior results at 1080p and 1440p with DLSS 2.0 than FSR.

[Trunks0]

Originally Posted by Exposed

FSR is only really feasible for 4k users quality wise, on the highest preset. Even then it's still only a spatial upscaler so it's never going to give the same level of quality that DLSS 2.0+ can. Ypu can hide this drawback with games with lack of contrast, texture detail, etc.. And amusingly that's exactly the kind of games we see FSR enabled for currently.

Less than 4k and less than the Ultra quality FSR really falls flat on its face. It's just the nature of the upscaler.

I'm tried FSR in the Rift Breaker and it was fine for me at the HQ setting. The lower ones where kinda meh. But I'm playing at a quasi 1080p, but twice as wide. So 3840x1080p and it looks fine at the highest quality setting.

So basically a free performance upgrade for my old ass R9 Fury. Thats awesome.

Originally Posted by Exposed

I don't really buy the DLSS is more complicated to implement than FSR because it really isn't. Anyone working on an Unreal engine game can implement it easily, like the game Pumpkin Jack that has a single creator/developer. A studio with a larger dev team isn't going to break a sweat any more than FSR regardless of engine used.

I think the drawback of not really being useable at 1440p or lower presets is going to hurt FSR in the long run and eventually AMD will need to turn to machine learning. If a game runs both DLSS 2.0 and FSR and you have a low end 2060, you're going to see far superior results at 1080p and 1440p with DLSS 2.0 than FSR.

I do, this developer them selves just said it. It is also why nVidia worked with EPIC, Unity and other engines to get it setup as a plug-in. Making the implementation way easier and requiring less work and less stress for nVidia teaching and helping to get it implemented. Still, it requires going through testing to prevent unintended side effects(like trailing on stuff without motion vector data. Or switching DLSS versions to minimize ghosting etc etc). And all of that leads to more work. Where as FSR is comparatively uncomplicated, so it just does it's thing.

[Sound_Card]

I don't think anybody here is going to use DLSS for 1080p. If they do, their card is probably older than a 2k series card and therefor can't use DLSS anyway.

[acroig]

Originally Posted by Sound_Card

I don't think anybody here is going to use DLSS for 1080p. If they do, their card is probably older than a 2k series card and therefor can't use DLSS anyway.

Or they are using a 2xxx series with RT effect and DLSS comes in handy.