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Old May 19, 2021, 12:42 PM   #121
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Well we know the aegis radars on warships see these crafts coming in at 80 000 feet from higher up over heir heads. If there are more powerfual radars that see them higher up lets hope the gov may finally admit they are coming in at least sometimes from orbit.

Not sure how far some radars go but they are usually limited in some ways.
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Old May 19, 2021, 12:49 PM   #122
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The V-173 flew ~80 years ago...looked a lot like a "ufo"....

The SR-71 hit 85k feet ~55 years ago....

5 years ago Alan Eustace jumped from 135k feet....

Just imagine what else we can do today

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Old May 19, 2021, 12:50 PM   #123
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I would say gravimetric drives, yea.
Traditional thrust engines just can't do this.

Also makes a LOT of sense to test these in areas you control, in case something goes wrong. If we test them over China or Russia and one fails, suddenly you have to recover it in hostile territory. Happens next to a US Navy carrier group? Much easier to get, or ensure it's lost so deep it will never be found.
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Old May 19, 2021, 01:02 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War View Post
I think you might be putting too much faith in these space monitoring institutions and organizations. I understand why though, it jives perfectly with the conclusion you are always working backwards from.

For someone who is so grounded in reality I find it surprising you believe they would be so forthcoming with the public if they had knowledge of unknown objects entering our atmosphere from space. It would likely be as highly classified as the most top secret projects the government runs. Do you really believe they would tell us?

Also, from what I understand those monitoring system programs are optimized to look for very specific objects; meteorites, falling space junk, ICBMs from other nations, etc. I don't think they all just monitor for anything and everything. However, their systems probably do log data of more than what they are focusing on and that database could potentially be mined for anomalies. However my guess is that is not really being done due to things like resource policies and budget constraints.
I'm afraid this just follows more conspiracy logic. The "eyes in the skies" encompasses thousands of different sects from around the globe. Most are located in North America, Europe, and the Pacific isles. The majority of these are private and academic research. Many of the observatories are even free open access to the public. To even suggest that the "government" (which government?) can put a gag order on all of these different entities is an absurd conspiracle approach in itself. In the US itself SETI is always looking for extraterrestrial life, anything approaching the solar system or the earth itself with an abnormal signal is going to be major news. In fact we've had something recently with the Omoua object that turned out to just be mundane.

So, being "grounded to reality" requires you to actually be grounded to reality, not fall for conspiracy theories or look for loopholes to support this notion that aliens are behind UFO's.

There is a reason why astrophysicist, both individual and organizational level (regardless of country) isn't giving these UFO sightings the time of day. These are people far more intelligent than you and I and their entire job/career is to study the cosmos. Not even astrobiologists, who's field is the study of potential extraterrestrial life, give credence to UFO's being of alien origins.

This is because UFO's are just that...unidentified flying objects. All instances are terrestrial based with no interstellar origins, thus this strongly suggests whatever you're seeing, whether we find out what it is or not, must be of terrestrial origins as well.

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Old May 19, 2021, 01:24 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Exposed View Post
I'm afraid this just follows more conspiracy logic. The "eyes in the skies" encompasses thousands of different sects from around the globe. Most are located in North America, Europe, and the Pacific isles. The majority of these are private and academic research. Many of the observatories are even free open access to the public. To even suggest that the "government" (which government?) can put a gag order on all of these different entities is an absurd conspiracle approach in itself. In the US itself SETI is always looking for extraterrestrial life, anything approaching the solar system or the earth itself with an abnormal signal is going to be global news. In fact we've had something recently with the Omoua object that turned out to just be mundane.

So, being "grounded to reality" requires you to actually be grounded to reality, not fall for conspiracy theories or look for loopholes to support this notion that aliens are behind UFO's.

There is a reason why astrophysicist, both individual and organizational level (regardless of country) isn't giving these UFO sightings the time of day. These are people far more intelligent than you and I and their entire job/career is to study the cosmos. Not even astrobiologists, who's field is the study of potential extraterrestrial life, give credence to UFO's being of alien origins.

This is because UFO's are just that...unidentified flying objects. All instances are terrestrial based with no interstellar origins, thus this strongly suggests whatever you're seeing, whether we find out what it is or not, is terrestrial based.
Actually the real reason non-government scientists don't give it the time of day is because its been a subject of ridicule for decades. To that point, the governments wouldn't even need to gag them. They simply would not want to dabble in it for fear of being outed as a nut. As for SETI, they monitor for radio signals which likely would not even be used by a civilization that's far more advanced than us. This is all moot anyways because how ignorant would we be to believe we would always be able to detect an advanced craft thousands (millions?) of years ahead of us that did not want to be detected? Ahh, conventional wisdom.

Regardless of that, my point was not about whether or not they are extra-terrestrial, or to push conspiracies. Just simply that I don't take you as an authority on these space monitoring programs. Even the current asteroid defense scanning systems are not 100% accurate for objects smaller than a kilometer in diameter. They miss objects all the time. I don't think anyone here really knows how accurate they are at detecting any and all objects entering our atmosphere especially small objects, or what they do and do not scan for, and you consistently use it as a crutch to defend your conclusion. Just saying, its not really a point I respect.

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Old May 19, 2021, 01:52 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War View Post
Actually the real reason non-government scientists don't give it the time of day is because its been a subject of ridicule for decades. To that point, the governments wouldn't even need to gag them. They simply would not want to dabble in it for fear of being outed as a nut.
This is flawed logic. Any detectable signal that is out of the ordinary would most certainly make news as they would have hard data on it. A true signal of interstellar origin would be picked up by multiple observatories and trackers as well, the data shared with each other and poured to public to look as well.

This is a great leap of conspiracle logic I'm afraid.

Quote:

As for SETI, they monitor for radio signals which likely would not even be used by a civilization that's far more advanced than us. This is all moot anyways because how ignorant would we be to believe we would always be able to detect an advanced craft thousands (millions?) of years ahead of us that did not want to be detected? Ahh, conventional wisdom.
SETI, and their global counterparts in Europe, China, and Japan, listen to more than just radio signals. They scan all parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. But ah, yes conventional conspiracy wisdom is that no matter the signal source the "aliens" are obviously employing stealth tech to avoid detection, only to be capture on earth with primitive technology. Again, another giant leap of conspiracle faith making Occam's razor look like blunt twig.




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Regardless of that, my point was not about whether or not they are extra-terrestrial, or to push conspiracies. Just simply that I don't take you as an authority on these space monitoring programs. Even the current asteroid defense scanning systems are not 100% accurate for objects smaller than a kilometer in diameter. They miss objects all the time. I don't think anyone here really knows how accurate they are at detecting any and all objects entering our atmosphere especially small objects, or what they do and do not scan for, and you consistently use it as a crutch to defend your conclusion. Just saying, its not really a point I respect.
You don't have to take as an authority on anything. I give you basic information, you can choose to take it or not. Though your understanding of space tracking needs to be addressed. There is no "single" tracker that encompasses everything. Long range asteroid trackers only look for large objects. Near earth objects are tracked via a different system and uses a different methology. Tracking space junk down to a quarter in low earth orbit uses yet another methology.

Basically, the closer you get to earth, the more accurate and sensitive tracking becomes. This doesn't even take into consideration that once something does enter the earth's upper atmosphere, it lights up like a Christmas tree. This atmospheric disturbance is unavoidable and cannot be "hidden". To dismiss this is to perform yet another leap of conspiracle logic in the face of Occam's razor just to explain how UFO's were never found entering from space.

So, you don't have to respect any of these facts as an individual. But the point remains UFO's have never been correlated from anything outer space, they have all been terrestrial observations. This is not a mere coincidence. No observations in space means UFO phenomenon must be of terrestrial origins, regardless of how advanced it looks. You will not find a single astrophysicist (who are authorities in this subject) that disagrees with this.
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Old May 19, 2021, 02:03 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War View Post
Actually the real reason non-government scientists don't give it the time of day is because its been a subject of ridicule for decades. To that point, the governments wouldn't even need to gag them. They simply would not want to dabble in it for fear of being outed as a nut. As for SETI, they monitor for radio signals which likely would not even be used by a civilization that's far more advanced than us. This is all moot anyways because how ignorant would we be to believe we would always be able to detect an advanced craft thousands (millions?) of years ahead of us that did not want to be detected? Ahh, conventional wisdom.

Regardless of that, my point was not about whether or not they are extra-terrestrial, or to push conspiracies. Just simply that I don't take you as an authority on these space monitoring programs. Even the current asteroid defense scanning systems are not 100% accurate for objects smaller than a kilometer in diameter. They miss objects all the time. I don't think anyone here really knows how accurate they are at detecting any and all objects entering our atmosphere especially small objects, or what they do and do not scan for, and you consistently use it as a crutch to defend your conclusion. Just saying, its not really a point I respect.
Yep we've known for decades that if a pilot merely reported a sighting it could imperil his pilots license because the prevailing attitude from authorities was that it was hoaxes and crazy people. This alone delayed the investigation of a valid phenomenon by generations. And to think if it was chinese or russian how much more damaged the US is from having ignored what was flying even in restricted airspace for such a long time. Because this isnt just from 2004 its been going on for a very long time. It just wasnt reported.

As for scientists just ask Stanton Freidman a well respected physicist who knew Carl Sagan who dared take the issue seriously and ended up having to move out of the US to teach at a small canadian university not far from where I am.

With that kind of consequence to ones life and career its no wonder most scientists and pilots dont dare to even talk about it.
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Old May 19, 2021, 02:42 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Exposed View Post
This is flawed logic. Any detectable signal that is out of the ordinary would most certainly make news as they would have hard data on it. A true signal of interstellar origin would be picked up by multiple observatories and trackers as well, the data shared with each other and poured to public to look as well.

This is a great leap of conspiracle logic I'm afraid.
Its really not though. Pretty common knowledge its a subject of ridicule in the scientific field, though things have been starting to change recently. Regardless, I was not talking about deep space signals. I'm talking about the UFOs that are already being sighted in the skies here.

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Originally Posted by Exposed View Post
SETI, and their global counterparts in Europe, China, and Japan, listen to more than just radio signals. They scan all parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. But ah, yes conventional conspiracy wisdom is that no matter the signal source the "aliens" are obviously employing stealth tech to avoid detection, only to be capture on earth with primitive technology. Again, another giant leap of conspiracle faith making Occam's razor look like blunt twig.
To me its not much different than when you say no matter what one speculates there's just no way they could come from space because our instruments are not detecting them. Its skeptic backwards thinking logic 101. I get your point and I'm not trying to be facetious here but I just find a certain level of closed-mindedness in thinking we would always be able to detect them coming. I will go back to my old analogies: Does an ant have the means to detect and track an airplane passing by at 32,000 feet? Do living bacteria know we are examining them in a petri dish?

Not trying to say either way what these things are. They could very well be 100% terrestrial. But they are still as of yet unknown, so until we understand all the physics of the universe I don't think it makes sense to claim it CANNOT be something just as well as it doesn't make sense to claim what it IS. Speculation is all that should be permitted here until more facts and evidence come out.

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Originally Posted by Exposed View Post
You don't have to take as an authority on anything. I give you basic information, you can choose to take it or not. Though your understanding of space tracking needs to be addressed. There is no "single" tracker that encompasses everything. Long range asteroid trackers only look for large objects. Near earth objects are tracked via a different system and uses a different methology. Tracking space junk down to a quarter in low earth orbit uses yet another methology.

Basically, the closer you get to earth, the more accurate and sensitive tracking becomes. This doesn't even take into consideration that once something does enter the earth's upper atmosphere, it lights up like a Christmas tree. This atmospheric disturbance is unavoidable and cannot be "hidden". To dismiss this is to perform yet another leap of conspiracle logic in the face of Occam's razor just to explain how UFO's were never found entering from space.

So, you don't have to respect any of these facts as an individual. But the point remains UFO's have never been correlated from anything outer space, they have all been terrestrial observations. This is not a mere coincidence. No observations in space means UFO phenomenon must be of terrestrial origins, regardless of how advanced it looks. You will not find a single astrophysicist (who are authorities in this subject) that disagrees with this.
Well, firstly there have been many UFO sightings in space during NASA missions that have not been fully explained.

But I didn't say there was a single tracker that can catch everything, just used the asteroid defense as one example of a scanner that is not 100% accurate. Point being, things can be missed so its not an end all be all conclusion to rule out the theory - as you like to believe. Just because your space monitoring people haven't detected them coming does not prove that these objects are beyond a doubt terrestrial.

Final note, just to be clear I am not trying to be confrontational here, and we have had this same discussion several times before in a civil manner so I know we're good. I just felt compelled to respond to you because you tend to make factual claims on the subject even though very little is known for sure about this phenomena, other than its been confirmed and acknowledged to actually be happening. To me, its perfectly OK to discuss and speculate on that, even to extreme possibilities as long as we understand its speculatory. I don't believe anyone here is saying what it has to be or not be something except for you.
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Old May 19, 2021, 02:45 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by pax View Post
Yep we've known for decades that if a pilot merely reported a sighting it could imperil his pilots license because the prevailing attitude from authorities was that it was hoaxes and crazy people. This alone delayed the investigation of a valid phenomenon by generations. And to think if it was chinese or russian how much more damaged the US is from having ignored what was flying even in restricted airspace for such a long time. Because this isnt just from 2004 its been going on for a very long time. It just wasnt reported.

As for scientists just ask Stanton Freidman a well respected physicist who knew Carl Sagan who dared take the issue seriously and ended up having to move out of the US to teach at a small canadian university not far from where I am.

With that kind of consequence to ones life and career its no wonder most scientists and pilots dont dare to even talk about it.
The whole underlying purpose of Grudge and Blue Book was to discredit and ridicule the sightings to make it all go away and deter people from reporting and talking about them.

To be fair it was a less sinister reason than you would think. Back in the 50's all the reporting was overwhelming the communications infrastructure and they were concerned it would be a problem should the Russians invade and they needed the bandwidth. But still it worked more successfully than they even planned for I think and the culture of ridicule has persisted to this day.
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Old May 19, 2021, 02:59 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War View Post
But I didn't say there was a single tracker that can catch everything, just used the asteroid defense as one example of a scanner that is not 100% accurate. Point being, things can be missed so its not an end all be all conclusion to rule out the theory - as you like to believe. Just because your space monitoring people haven't detected them coming does not prove that these objects are beyond a doubt terrestrial.
.
I support this message. Telescopes, etc, point at fairly small arcs of space at any given moment. They are not observing the entire Earth's sky at all times.

Also, if they're terrestrial we also have no detection of them launching from any bases, etc. Cameras, satellites, etc, are everywhere. If you're going to use the "lack of observation is proof that it doesn't happen" then it also can't also be terrestrial. Clearly, this is a bullshit argument on both sides of the coin.

Furthermore, trying to use Occam's razor as "proof" of anything is a pet peeve of mine. That's not science, that's philosophy.

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And in fact, given quantum mechanics, it's pretty obvious that nature does and we still don't have a great handle on it.
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Old May 19, 2021, 03:25 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War View Post
Its really not though. Pretty common knowledge its a subject of ridicule in the scientific field, though things have been starting to change recently. Regardless, I was not talking about deep space signals. I'm talking about the UFOs that are already being sighted in the skies here.
If you're just referring to terrestrial UFO's, then yes you won't hear much from any scientist on the matter. But that is because there isn't much to discuss and scientists in general aren't into conjecture, just data and evidence. That being said, you should listen to astrophysicists, like Neil DeGrass Tyson, because it's their field of expertise. They make very valid points regarding UFO sightings on earth and likelihood of any "alien" connection.


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To me its not much different than when you say no matter what one speculates there's just no way they could come from space because our instruments are not detecting them. Its skeptic backwards thinking logic 101. I get your point and I'm not trying to be facetious here but I just find a certain level of closed-mindedness in thinking we would always be able to detect them coming. I will go back to my old analogies: Does an ant have the means to detect and track an airplane passing by at 32,000 feet? Do living bacteria know we are examining them in a petri dish?
We aren't ants and we aren't bacteria though. We don't know if "any one" is listening or observing us from far away. But coming into our orbit, our atmosphere, yes we have the means to detect something is out of the ordinary. What's facetious is always hiding behind the argument "they don't want us to detect them", because that's an unfalsifiable standpoint that has no relevance in science or logic.

https://courses.vcu.edu/PHY-rhg/astr...006/index.html

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Not trying to say either way what these things are. They could very well be 100% terrestrial. But they are still as of yet unknown, so until we understand all the physics of the universe I don't think it makes sense to claim it CANNOT be something just as well as it doesn't make sense to claim what it IS. Speculation is all that should be permitted here until more facts and evidence come out.
This assumption is wrong, or you're interpreting it wrong. You can in fact limit the probabilities of an unknown event based on an established verified data set. This is the basic pillar of falsifiable vs unfalsifiability and Occam's Razor.

In this case we've never tracked an unidentified object approaching earth or entering earth space. This is valid, legitimate data that can be used to constrain theories of UFO's of alien origins.

A more local example is a house with security cameras all over the place including outside that records 24/7. You see a pair of hands steal a box of cereal. Everyone in the house denies it. You think someone broke into the house, but you see nothing in the outdoor cameras of anyone approaching or entering. The people in the house say "well they didn't want to be seen on camera".

What does invoking Occam's razor suggest? Someone actually breaking in yet there is no video evidence of this, or that it was actually an inside job?Why does one have more merit over the other?



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Well, firstly there have been many UFO sightings in space during NASA missions that have not been fully explained.
Originating from space? What are they?

Quote:
But I didn't say there was a single tracker that can catch everything, just used the asteroid defense as one example of a scanner that is not 100% accurate. Point being, things can be missed so its not an end all be all conclusion to rule out the theory - as you like to believe. Just because your space monitoring people haven't detected them coming does not prove that these objects are beyond a doubt terrestrial.
Think of "eyes in the skies" as a mesh, not a single entity. Every piece of technology, from whatever organization, all around the globe all active at the same time. Any true of object of interstellar origin that isn't a meteor or comet, especially one that enters the atmosphere with a huge atmospheric disturbance is going to be detected. The fact that we haven't detected anything like this should give you a clear indication of just how valid UFO conspiracies of alien origins are.

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Final note, just to be clear I am not trying to be confrontational here, and we have had this same discussion several times before in a civil manner so I know we're good. I just felt compelled to respond to you because you tend to make factual claims on the subject even though very little is known for sure about this phenomena, other than its been confirmed and acknowledged to actually be happening. To me, its perfectly OK to discuss and speculate on that, even to extreme possibilities as long as we understand its speculatory. I don't believe anyone here is saying what it has to be or not be something except for you.
That's the problem, there's many examples here where there are those who are hard pressed on the extreme possibilities without merit of the more mundane. That becomes a problem because that is terrible critical thinking.

It's ok to acknowledge something as unexplainable or unidentified like these footages. Astrophysicists like Neil Degrass Tyson are fine with it too. The problem I have is reaching to extremes to explain these phenomenon while simultaneously and deliberately dismissing established scientific data, method and principles to reach there. So just because something is unidentified, unexplained, looks mystical or mysterious, means that it actually something mystical or alien in nature. At that point, you're not actually acknowledging the phenomenon as unidentified or unknown.
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Old May 19, 2021, 04:02 PM   #132
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And I have a simple answer: I don't know if it's "physically" real. Is there any evidence to show one way or another?
Well, I think we have an Aegis cruiser and its powerful radar. We have the F-18's and their radar. Plus 6 sets of highly trained eyeballs that stared at the thing for a solid five minutes.


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Now I have a simple question for you as well. What evidence is there of this being of interstellar origin?
None.

The evidence we do have however exhibits a propulsion technology that far exceeds what we think is even possible. But it goes beyond even propulsion because what's truly remarkable is where is the energy that powers the thing coming from?

Sure, the DOD might be able to make something go fast, but that takes lots of power.

LOTS-O-POWER.

Here's a craft, that's doing a bazillion knots a second and it's the size of a Honda Civic.

That would mean the DOD has not only invented a propulsion system that is ridiculously quick, it also invented an energy device to power it. That exhudes no outgasses. Nothing. Not even heat.

If you come to accept that thing the F-18 saw is a real and tangible thing, it requires an insane leap of technology to get there.

Not saying it isn't possible, but you must admit, it's a tall order with none of those secrets getting out. Technologies that require lots of steps to get there, with lots of people, over many decades. Yet, nothing.

Not one leak. Not one person. Every single secret project we've undergone has had some level of leaks.

This would be the first with none.
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Old May 19, 2021, 04:06 PM   #133
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(long intelligent post)
I never said the phenomena is alien in nature, and I'm not trying to explain it as anything. That's not what I am saying at all and you have a bad habit of always thinking that I am. I simply take issue with ruling anything out so quickly as you, that's all. So many times in human history we have been humbled by nature after thinking we understood one thing and it turned out to be something else. Furthermore I think its funny you treat these threads like serious scientific discussions when no one here is even remotely close to qualified for that. I see them as wild speculation and having some fun.

But to entertain you, why am I not dissuaded from this thinking by all the established scientific data you cite? Because the established scientific data is not entirely dissuasive to me.

The point about requiring falsifiable statements does not work IMO when you can't trust the accuracy of the people doing the science in the first place. How many times have we been lied to about this phenomena over the years, only to now be told its real? The scientific communities and governments of the world are starting over from square one on this subject as far as I'm concerned. They need to look at all the evidence and start putting their efforts into investigating it seriously, and being transparent about it before I start considering conclusions.
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Old May 19, 2021, 04:58 PM   #134
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Well, I think we have an Aegis cruiser and its powerful radar. We have the F-18's and their radar. Plus 6 sets of highly trained eyeballs that stared at the thing for a solid five minutes.




None.

The evidence we do have however exhibits a propulsion technology that far exceeds what we think is even possible. But it goes beyond even propulsion because what's truly remarkable is where is the energy that powers the thing coming from?

Sure, the DOD might be able to make something go fast, but that takes lots of power.

LOTS-O-POWER.

Here's a craft, that's doing a bazillion knots a second and it's the size of a Honda Civic.

That would mean the DOD has not only invented a propulsion system that is ridiculously quick, it also invented an energy device to power it. That exhudes no outgasses. Nothing. Not even heat.

If you come to accept that thing the F-18 saw is a real and tangible thing, it requires an insane leap of technology to get there.

Not saying it isn't possible, but you must admit, it's a tall order with none of those secrets getting out. Technologies that require lots of steps to get there, with lots of people, over many decades. Yet, nothing.

Not one leak. Not one person. Every single secret project we've undergone has had some level of leaks.

This would be the first with none.
If those Navy "ufo" anti gravity/fusion patents everyone was laughing about the other year were real it would explain all of the abilities demonstrated by the objects.

But having built all of that would be an insane leap in tech and we should have seen it applied to other things long before that you would imagine it being applied to an airframe (fusion power and so on)

And that doesn't account for the 2004 and even decades+ earlier sightings of similar things.
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Old May 19, 2021, 07:43 PM   #135
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Well, I think we have an Aegis cruiser and its powerful radar. We have the F-18's and their radar. Plus 6 sets of highly trained eyeballs that stared at the thing for a solid five minutes.

And what tracking evidence is there that this originated from outer space? In fact the highest altitude these objects were "tracked" were nowhere near the Karman line, the lowest altitude where space "begins" (though there is still a remnant of an atmosphere there).

Seems more terrestrial than extra terrestrial from this point alone regardless of how "out of this world" it looks to you.


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None.
Exactly my point.

Quote:
The evidence we do have however exhibits a propulsion technology that far exceeds what we think is even possible. But it goes beyond even propulsion because what's truly remarkable is where is the energy that powers the thing coming from?

Sure, the DOD might be able to make something go fast, but that takes lots of power.

LOTS-O-POWER.

Here's a craft, that's doing a bazillion knots a second and it's the size of a Honda Civic.

That would mean the DOD has not only invented a propulsion system that is ridiculously quick, it also invented an energy device to power it. That exhudes no outgasses. Nothing. Not even heat.

If you come to accept that thing the F-18 saw is a real and tangible thing, it requires an insane leap of technology to get there.

Not saying it isn't possible, but you must admit, it's a tall order with none of those secrets getting out. Technologies that require lots of steps to get there, with lots of people, over many decades. Yet, nothing.
You'd be surprised of how quickly technology advances.

The future of aerial warfare aren't jetfighters. It's drones. If we can build a drone that can descend from 80,000 feet, drop a bomb somewhere, and escape at high velocity while super maneuverable drones can take out an entire enemy fleet of fighter jets, that is a card that guarantees total warfare domination from just the skies alone. If we can wage war this way and not lose a single human life in the process (if it gets shot down we'll only just lose an expensive piece of equipment, nothing else), that is a game changer.

I can almost guarantee you we have such projects in the works now because that is the next logical evolutionary step for warfare. And you can bet your ass other countries as scrambling to beat us to it (but they won't because they cannot outspend or out research us )





Quote:

Not one leak. Not one person. Every single secret project we've undergone has had some level of leaks.

This would be the first with none.
Not really. The patents alone on propulsion and certain aircraft does quite fit these phenomenon almost like a jigsaw puzzle. And there really weren't any credible leaks for the Skunkworks stealth project and that went on for a decade. It was so secret other branches were kept in the dark, Congress was kept in the dark for the most part especially for funding, only a handful of DoD was aware the project existed and get this.... from declassified reports the Air Force deliberately exacerbated UFO sightings to hide their project. Does that sound familiar?

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Old May 19, 2021, 07:55 PM   #136
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I never said the phenomena is alien in nature, and I'm not trying to explain it as anything. That's not what I am saying at all and you have a bad habit of always thinking that I am. I simply take issue with ruling anything out so quickly as you, that's all. So many times in human history we have been humbled by nature after thinking we understood one thing and it turned out to be something else. Furthermore I think its funny you treat these threads like serious scientific discussions when no one here is even remotely close to qualified for that. I see them as wild speculation and having some fun.

But to entertain you, why am I not dissuaded from this thinking by all the established scientific data you cite? Because the established scientific data is not entirely dissuasive to me.

The point about requiring falsifiable statements does not work IMO when you can't trust the accuracy of the people doing the science in the first place. How many times have we been lied to about this phenomena over the years, only to now be told its real? The scientific communities and governments of the world are starting over from square one on this subject as far as I'm concerned. They need to look at all the evidence and start putting their efforts into investigating it seriously, and being transparent about it before I start considering conclusions.
I personally have a hard time just taking something at face value (footage in this case) and coming to a conclusion that is based more on assumptions and guesses (alien origins) rather than applying some basic scientific logic and principles. If you want to consider aliens, fine. But that shouldn't be the FIRST line of reasoning. It should be the last of a very long list, and even then astrobiologists and astrophysicists will vehemently disagree with you because even then, the evidence just isn't there. As been said before, just because you don't know what something is, doesn't mean it's aliens. Just because you can't explain Oumuamua's vector, doesn't mean it's aliens. Just because you can't explain the artificial like dimming of Tabby's star, doesn't mean it's aliens. These phenomenon have all been explained by the way, proving the point. So in this case, just because you see footage of something that appears to beyond current technology, doesn't mean it's aliens.

You have to give more credence to data because it's these cross collaborating references that often defines something as fact. For example a video of a 747 is meaningless by itself. You can say it doesn't exist or doctored. But, if you have seperate radar data that tracks it, an atmospheric detector that picks up atmospheric quakes it leaves behind, sound wave data from another source, bla bla and so forth, you can pretty confidently say it exists. But if none on the high altitude balloons monitoring the Karman line never sees a 747, well you can safely rule out no 747 has crossed that barrier (come from space). Or none of the thousands of observatories covering the sky at any given time sees a 747 out there either. Or any of the short range near earth meteor detectors picks them up either. Or long range asteroid detector, or comet tracker, etc... You can safely say this object never originated from outer space. That is the only point I'm trying to make, and I'm not pretending to be an authority on this, but you do have astrophysicists that you can take credence from.

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Old May 19, 2021, 08:51 PM   #137
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That all sounds fair enough Exposed, and I'm definitely not one who does not exhaust all other possible explanations before considering the extreme. To remind you, I have said on here before that I'm in the camp that leans towards these objects being man made - as incredible as that would be.

But as a final note before i settle in and pour the bourbon, all of what you say regarding other worldly craft coming here relies on traveling with conventional propulsion. What if a craft traveled here by some other means we are yet to imagine? Yes i understand there's no basis in science for that theory but it's just interesting to think about, nothing more. But yes, I understand speculating on that is not your preference.

In the end, circular debating aside i just hope we continue to get more and more footage and credible testimonial released at a steady rate and at some point in my lifetime get an actual real explanation. Admittedly these things flying in our airspace with impunity does concern me. Not necessarily only for fear of what they might do, but i feel some in the military industrial complex would see it as a recipe for new type of war.
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Old May 19, 2021, 09:35 PM   #138
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So a little while ago Lue Elizondo faced some backlash from the Pentagon for spilling the beans on UAP's claiming he hadnt worked at the AATIP unit and a couple very high ranking former officials came forward to say that wasnt true to clear that record and now this:

https://video.foxnews.com/v/62551133...#sp=show-clips

TLDW He now claims the US is in possession of exotic materials from UAP's. Why he hadnt said that in the past might have been the NDA/security clearance issues but he recently lawyered up with this guy...:

https://silvarecord.com/2021/05/16/d...d-by-elizondo/

...after the Pentagon rebuked him so he may have found legal ground to say more.

Quote:
Longtime lawyer involved with the UFO subject, Danny Sheehan, announced he is legal counsel for Lue Elizondo. If that wasn’t big enough news for those following the UFO subject closely, Sheehan is also claiming a “second major (inspector general) investigation (is) going on initiated by Lue Elizondo to look into the people telling lies about him and the AATIP Program.”
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Old May 20, 2021, 07:23 AM   #139
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You'd be surprised of how quickly technology advances.
As an engineer for 20 years, I'm pretty confident about how quickly technology advances.

But you're missing the point. There are dozens if not hundreds of advancements that need to happen in order for some platforms to exist. You don't have the Model-T without the spark plug or gasoline, or oil lubricants, or drum breaks.

Here we have a vehicle that exhibits tremendous speeds and maneuverability, with no wing or surfaces. No outgasses or heat that doesn't make a sound.

The technologies that would need to be invented to fulfill what I mentioned above would be in the thousands. From metallurgy to the cup holders - it would involve hundreds of people over many decades to produce. Technologies that eventually would have spilled into the private sector.

You don't go from an SR-71 to this and all the advancements you need to make it happen in 60 years. All under one roof, over many decades, and not one thing leaking about it.
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Old May 20, 2021, 08:28 AM   #140
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As an engineer for 20 years, I'm pretty confident about how quickly technology advances.

But you're missing the point. There are dozens if not hundreds of advancements that need to happen in order for some platforms to exist. You don't have the Model-T without the spark plug or gasoline, or oil lubricants, or drum breaks.

Here we have a vehicle that exhibits tremendous speeds and maneuverability, with no wing or surfaces. No outgasses or heat that doesn't make a sound.

The technologies that would need to be invented to fulfill what I mentioned above would be in the thousands. From metallurgy to the cup holders - it would involve hundreds of people over many decades to produce. Technologies that eventually would have spilled into the private sector.

You don't go from an SR-71 to this and all the advancements you need to make it happen in 60 years. All under one roof, over many decades, and not one thing leaking about it.
Yes you can actually, drones don't need nearly amount of energy as an F-35 and are compact and are far more agile, compact and silent. You only need advancements in maneuverability and propulsion for military drones to exhibit the behavior we've seen, and what we've seen is possible theoretically and technologically if given enough time and resources (which some patents suggest). You will never see this spill over to the private sector until it's fulfillment for military purposes has been completed or declassified as we have seen with prior military projects.

The fact is, it's quite wrong thinking to bring up aliens just because you don't understand how this technology works. You also cannot be quick dismiss our current level of advancing technology, but just as quick to invoke aliens. This is absurd because it requires several leaps of flawed logic (not to mention severely undermining human ingenuity), starting with "alien life" itself which if exists isn't going to remotely resemble anything earth like or behave human like in any way. These "UFOs" tend to be given human characteristics (they have a brain eyes DNA etc...) or given human technology (they are driven by alien computers) because it's so easy to romanticize aliens visiting earth that way. Never mind the zero shred of evidence of any sort of unidentified object detection outside the earth's orbit, nor the sheer unlikelyhood of alien life remotely resembling or processing stimuli the same way we do (PBS has a great series on this). This is why no astrophysicist or astrobiologist take these UFO claims of alien origins seriously.

Don't fall for the classic ideological trap that UFO conspirators fall under:

You don't know what it is.....therefore it must be aliens.

You don't know how this works....therefore it must be aliens.

You don't know who can build something like this....therefore it must be aliens.


Classic flawed assumptions and bad critical thinking. It's why UFO conspirators cannot be taken seriously. Neil DeGrass Tyson touched on this and bears repeating yet again:


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Old May 20, 2021, 10:09 AM   #141
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https://amp.tmz.com/2021/05/20/senat...humans-aliens/

Sen. Martin Heinrich NEW UFOs TOO ADVANCED FOR HUMANS

Quote:

Count Sen. Martin Heinrich among those who think there's something otherworldly about the UFO sightings in our skies ... he says the technology is too advanced for humans.

We got the Senator from New Mexico on Capitol Hill Wednesday and asked him about the UFO sightings pilots in the Armed Forces say are becoming very common.

Sen. Heinrich is definitely intrigued by the new UFO footage, telling us it's something Congress needs to investigate, because everything he's seeing tells him the crafts aren't being built or piloted by people.

It's interesting ... the Senator says if foreign governments had this kind of advanced technology, there would be other indications of their capabilities, and he says that's just not the case.
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Old May 20, 2021, 10:58 AM   #142
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I do believe its possible they are man made. Back in the 50's and 60's black projects like the U-2 and SR-71 spy planes certainly would have seemed otherworldly to people back then, and were the source of many UFO sightings. No doubt whatever tech they are currently working on in secret today is equally incredible to us now. So this is why if you held a gun to my head and asked, I'd have to say the UFO's we are seeing today are more likely to be man made.

However, the only thing that gives me pause and why I still entertain extreme possibilities is the fact that similar type UFO sightings have been reported for 70+ years with the same maneuver characteristics as what are being reported today. So its a conflict in logic that the same bleeding edge tech currently being developed in secret now would have existed and was sighted back in the 40's and 50's and earlier.
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Old May 20, 2021, 11:14 AM   #143
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At first glance it seems to easy to say nazi secret program that went part of operation paperclip after the war and since then secret US gov program except there are characteristics that make this unlikely. One both nazi and allied pilots reported these in recurring patrols while bomber fleets were airborne yet no one ever got shot down by them. If these were nazi its hard to think they wouldnt have used them to full effect to help Germany win the war.

So its not we saw one or 2 of them fly shakily at first in the 40's to be followed by larger fleets later one... They existed in significant numbers early on. We wouldnt leave successful technologies on the table like that wed build them by the thousands.
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Old May 20, 2021, 03:13 PM   #144
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https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/l...rger-bunfight/

Quote:
THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE: Playbook can’t quite believe he is writing this — or whether he had something dodgy for dinner — but there are increasing rumors among well-informed government insiders that the publication of a U.S. government report on UFOs due next month could become one of the stories of the summer, or indeed, century. Yesterday, former President Barack Obama gave an interview to James Corden’s show in which he confirmed: “There is footage and records of objects in the skies that we don’t know exactly what they are.” Good to know that if the corona roadmap stays on track we’ll be reopening just in time for the alien invasion.
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Old May 20, 2021, 03:38 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exposed View Post
Yes you can actually, drones don't need nearly amount of energy as an F-35 and are compact and are far more agile, compact and silent. You only need advancements in maneuverability and propulsion for military drones to exhibit the behavior we've seen...]
I don't care if it's your toaster oven. If you want to make your toaster oven travel at over bajillion knots a second, it takes a **** load of energy. To squeeze a power unit to provide that energy in such a small package is cuckoobananapants.


To get to that level of technology requires steps. Right now, Space X is leading the race with their raptor engines. This Tic Tac is ****ing insane levels above that.
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Old May 21, 2021, 11:49 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllexxisF1 View Post
I don't care if it's your toaster oven. If you want to make your toaster oven travel at over bajillion knots a second, it takes a **** load of energy. To squeeze a power unit to provide that energy in such a small package is cuckoobananapants.


To get to that level of technology requires steps. Right now, Space X is leading the race with their raptor engines. This Tic Tac is ****ing insane levels above that.

It's clear you're not aware of any of the existing theoretical methods of propulsion that doesn't require thrust or energy levels from a standard combustion engine. If you think humans are not capable of non combustion engines and only offer "aliens" as a recourse, then there is alot you need to learn and watching alien conspiracy hit pieces isn't going to aid you in this matter.
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Old May 21, 2021, 11:51 AM   #147
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Old May 21, 2021, 11:55 AM   #148
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/21/s...-reid-ufo.html

Senator Harry Reid wrote an article for the New York Times.

Harry Reid: What We Believe About U.F.O.s
We still don’t know what they are — but we may be close to finding out.

Quote:
One day in 1996, I received a call from George Knapp, an investigative reporter at KLAS-TV, the CBS affiliate in Las Vegas, and a friend of mine. “Harry,” he said, “there’s something you have to attend.” He invited me to an upcoming conference that would focus on what the U.S. government generally refers to as “unidentified aerial phenomena,” but what most other people simply call U.F.O.s, a subject Mr. Knapp had, and still has, a particular interest in.

A large conference room at the event was filled with academics, interested members of the public and, yes, a few oddballs. I was very impressed with the academics, who spoke of unidentified aerial phenomena in the language of science, discussing the issue in terms of technological advancement and national security. I was hooked.

Over the following years, as I became increasingly interested in U.F.O.s — in part through my conversations with former astronaut John Glenn, a fellow senator with a similar curiosity — my staff warned me not to be seen to engage on the topic. “Stay the hell away from this,” they said. I politely ignored them. I was inquisitive and, like Senator Glenn, I thought it was an issue that demanded attention, and I was in a position to act.

And act I did.
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Old May 21, 2021, 05:46 PM   #149
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Another senator on the issue:


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Old May 26, 2021, 09:55 AM   #150
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https://www.politico.com/newsletters...rY3McMYe5BagZc

Quote:
JOHN PODESTA thinks the truth is out there.

And he believes that President JOE BIDEN can help.

The former White House chief of staff and Democratic party luminary has been pushing the federal government to be more transparent on all things UFO — or “unidentified aerial phenomena” for people who want to sound more serious — for over two decades.

Now that the Pentagon and the media are taking the subject more seriously, Podesta thinks Biden should move the ball forward by creating a dedicated UFO office inside the White House’s Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP).

“They're more used to dealing in an open-source environment, used to dealing with scientific information disclosed to the public, and having a conversation with the scientific community than, you know, black programs at the Pentagon,” Podesta told West Wing Playbook while driving with his wife across rural Wyoming.

The idea for the office, which Podesta credits to novice UFO researcher and journalist LESLIE KEAN, would be a “central hub” to pool all the X-Files from across the federal government and then, ideally, share them with the public. OSTP declined to comment.

Podesta says he is particularly interested in the 1965 crash of an unidentified object in Kecksburg, Pa., in 1965. “There were clearly more documents generated than were disclosed under the Freedom of Information Act given the attention the government paid to it,” he said.
Kecksburg was almost certainly a russian satellite but keeping such old secrets doesnt make sense... Clearing the air on many reports by simply releasing the information would do a lot of good for the ufo community.
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