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Old May 18, 2021, 03:37 PM   #91
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Just watched the much-touted documentary 'The Phenomenon' and yeah.

Aliens are real.

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Old May 18, 2021, 04:26 PM   #92
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So if the general public were to think of the fastest jet around the ones that know something about aviation would think of the SR-71. It went Mach 3+.

The SR-71 was built in 1963. 58 years ago..... Many of the 'cigar shaped UFO' claims were of the SR-71... In order to replace it then something much faster and much more maneuverable would have to be made.

Chances are, those planes are top secret and we won't know about them.
Well how fast are the tictac ufo's moving? Is it on the same order of magnitude as conventional aircraft? If it's just a bit faster than a normal jet fighter, then it's easy to say it's likely to be an experimental aircraft, using well-understood propulsion technology, not alien technology.

If it's moving 100x faster though, then that shifts the probabilities a bit... definitely requires a form of propulsion we don't understand... makes a more plausible case for aliens, or at least experimental aviation labs that are working WAAAAAY beyond normal human understanding.
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Old May 18, 2021, 04:27 PM   #93
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I'm looking for speed estimates, and I'll post them here:

It was just behaving in ways that aren’t physically normal. That’s what caught my eye. Because, aircraft, whether they’re manned or unmanned, still have to obey the laws of physics. They have to have some source of lift, some source of propulsion. The Tic Tac was not doing that. It was going from like 50,000 feet to, you know, a hundred feet in like seconds, which is not possible.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/tic-tac-ufo-video-q-and-a-with-navy-pilot-chad-underwood.html

So let's say he means dropping 50,000ft in 10 seconds, that's 3,600mph, or about mach 5. So it's not an unheard-of speed... although it's certainly unheard-of acceleration.

Actually maybe it's not?


Sprint missile was by far the fastest accelerating missile in history. Sprint accelerated at 100 g, reaching a speed of Mach 10 in 5 seconds.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-sp...e%20the%20heat.

That's actually about the same acceleration as the tictac then... albeit that's done with rockets, producing an ungodly amount of head and exhaust, but it proves that humans can build something that accelerates like that.

From looking at the video at the time and more recently, do you get a sense as to how much heat this thing was giving off?
Well, normally, you would see engines emitting a heat plume. This object was not doing that. The video shows a source of heat, but the normal signatures of an exhaust plume were not there. There was no sign of propulsion.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/tic-tac-ufo-video-q-and-a-with-navy-pilot-chad-underwood.html

Also for context, ICBMs travel at ~mach 20... so the tictac speed isn't that alien... although maybe doing that inside the atmosphere is.
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Old May 18, 2021, 04:52 PM   #94
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They said they estimated 600g acceleration. And from 80 000 feet to sea level in 2-3 secs. Or mach5+ to a dead stop instantly.

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Old May 18, 2021, 04:56 PM   #95
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Let's just say, if we have the tech to do this... Why the hell are they wasting billions on the F35? When you think about it like that... Pretty much says either it's a cover, or we're not alone.
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Old May 18, 2021, 07:09 PM   #96
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Haha the poor F35 program
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Old May 18, 2021, 07:30 PM   #97
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Those who are quick to believe in "aliens" tend to fall in the same category as flat earthers, both apparently are quick to dismiss basic scientific understanding in favor of conspiracable evidence and the annoying persistent logical fallacy just because you don't understand something y, means it must be x.

The next 10 years will see a significant advancement of space exploration and optics, yet I have a feeling we will continue to see "UFO's" and still never detect a single shred of corroborating evidence of an interstellar object entering earth's orbit (outside of meteors, etc..) . We already have the means to do so now, yet it's quite puzzling why this is ignored by a certain sect of people who "want to believe".



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Old May 18, 2021, 10:24 PM   #98
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Those who are quick to believe in "aliens" tend to fall in the same category as flat earthers, both apparently are quick to dismiss basic scientific understanding in favor of conspiracable evidence and the annoying persistent logical fallacy just because you don't understand something y, means it must be x.
So, full disclosure, I totally 100% believe that there is life out in the universe and I totally believe that that life could be or is intelligent. I just don't believe that they are coming here. I think that there is a difference in people that 'believe in aliens' and people that believe that 'aliens are coming here'.

I mean, the Drake Equation is, IMO, pretty lenient with it's estimations especially with recent discoveries of exoplanet. Even with the most conservative estimations that still leave thousands if not millions of civilizations that could be out there.

I still don't think that we are interesting enough to come all this way. We are like the hillbilly second cousin that lives 3 states over. No one is going out of their way to visit....
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Old May 18, 2021, 11:07 PM   #99
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Maybe its not about visiting maybe its about turf. Many european empires looked down on those they conquered. Even many in lands they didnt even bother to contact such as the typical isolated jungle tribes. But they owned those lands through their empires.

We dont care about the ants in the jungle but we want to own that jungle. Intelligent species like us are often predators and territorial.

But aliens are just one possibility on the table. I dont think keeping them as an option means you think the earth is flat. In fact its quite the other way if we only consider absurdely long secret US gov program as the only option. Its the same as flat earthers as in ad reductio ad absurdem. I dont think anyone can reduce something this amazing but basically unknown to one option.

Not yet.
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Old May 19, 2021, 02:25 AM   #100
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Intelligent species like us are often predators and territorial.

.
Intelligent species or like us, you can't have both
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Old May 19, 2021, 03:31 AM   #101
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The other thought process is that intelligent species 'like us' that are predators and territorial usually kill themselves off or do something that prevent them from gaining long distance space travel...

If you are too busy fighting wars you are generally too busy to go into deep space...
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Old May 19, 2021, 03:58 AM   #102
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it basically comes down to this:
  • Is there life in any form in the universe besides ours? Yes, most likely
  • If so, will it be like anything we know? Most unlikely
  • Will (whatever kind of lifeform) come to "visit" us? Most unlikely for a LOT of reasons.
  • If so, what would be the most likey cause for all the "sightings"? Human made "objects".

Of course it is and always will be the wet dream of any nutjob to see any real evidence of "aliens" visiting earth and or "influencing" our evolution. But that won't ever happen.
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Old May 19, 2021, 07:29 AM   #103
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Those who are quick to believe in "aliens" tend to fall in the same category as flat earthers,...
Wow, you must be fun at parties.
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Old May 19, 2021, 08:30 AM   #104
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So, full disclosure, I totally 100% believe that there is life out in the universe and I totally believe that that life could be or is intelligent. I just don't believe that they are coming here. I think that there is a difference in people that 'believe in aliens' and people that believe that 'aliens are coming here'.

I mean, the Drake Equation is, IMO, pretty lenient with it's estimations especially with recent discoveries of exoplanet. Even with the most conservative estimations that still leave thousands if not millions of civilizations that could be out there.

I still don't think that we are interesting enough to come all this way. We are like the hillbilly second cousin that lives 3 states over. No one is going out of their way to visit....
I have no doubt there is some form of "life" elsewhere in the universe (it's big after all). But I do have issues with those first jumping to claim UFO's must be alien rather than considering the likelier and more mundane possibilities.

The evidence just isn't there, the observations don't back it up, everything points to these "UFOs" (unidentified by definition) must be terrestrial in nature regardless of how outlandish it looks. Building alien conspiracy theories out of these UFO's might be fun and intriguing, but really shouldn't be taken with a serious grain of salt.
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Old May 19, 2021, 08:39 AM   #105
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Why do you have issues if someone believes these *might* be aliens?

If we all agree that these are real crafts, the explanation can't be that they're only made by human beings.

Especially considering that people have been reporting this phenomenon for over 60 years.

If you were to employ scientific posture for this topic, anything that hasn't been disproven is still a possibility is it not?

\\Insert Spock quote.

So start with this craft and the measurable performance they employ. Moreover, this is only what has been leaked, the government surely has more evidence.

Let's just start there.
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Old May 19, 2021, 09:04 AM   #106
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Ya the whole 'they cant travel between stars' perspective starts to wane when you see the performance of these craft for days on end. The energy source powering them must be something else. Even if it was just us making them Id say we have arrived in our ability to start travelling the galaxy.
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Old May 19, 2021, 09:21 AM   #107
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Why do you have issues if someone believes these *might* be aliens?

If you were to employ scientific posture for this topic, anything that hasn't been disproven is still a possibility is it not?
by your "logic" it could be red, dancing unicorn pickles. Is it likely? No, but you'd be hard pressed to prove they aren't....

the problem with the "believers" or pre astronautics is, that there is always "maybe it was this way" and never "yes, this is a 100% scientific prove that it was this way". There could be an alien base below the northpole, there could be this, there could be that. Yeah. Where is the prove? You have none? Fine, then it's just what it sounds like, bs. I have no problem with people believing whatever they want as long as they don't act as if it's THE truth.
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Old May 19, 2021, 09:33 AM   #108
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Why do you have issues if someone believes these *might* be aliens?



Same reason you might have issues with someone claiming Leprechauns stole your box of cereal during the night rather than someone in your household who denies taking it.



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If we all agree that these are real crafts, the explanation can't be that they're only made by human beings.


This bad leap of logic is what brands UFO conspirators as nonsensical. Have you proven these "unidentified flying objects" are real in the first place or who made them? If so why are they still unidentified? What evidence do you have that such a craft cannot be made by humans? I give you many many examples of UFO sightings where many thought were beyond our technological ability, only to turn out those sightings were actually from prototypes from the military. Many stealth test runs were mistaken for UFO's during the 70's and 80's as an example.



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Especially considering that people have been reporting this phenomenon for over 60 years.


And yet never any corroborating evidence. Fact is people have been seeing unexplained phenomenon for far far longer, UFO's included. People have reported seeing ghosts as well. Problem is these "phenomenon" are never substantiated. Some UFO sightings are even tied to the technology involved (foo fighters), and natural phenomenon like ball lightning was once an unexplained phenomenon as well.



Point is, what people "see" and report isn't actual evidence of something outworldly (aliens) or otherworldy (ghosts).





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If you were to employ scientific posture for this topic, anything that hasn't been disproven is still a possibility is it not?

Sorry but you haven't employed any bit of scientific posture in this thread. You even began with a really bad use of Occam's razor. Occam's razor isn't intended to give merit to unlikely explanations like aliens just to fit a flawed biased comparison, by definition it is intended to favor the simplest of two or more comprehensive, testable, theories.



In astrophysics, here's an example where Occam's razor was invoked:


https://www.astronomytrek.com/oumuamua-alien-theory/


The essence is this: Just saying that we do not understand the object’s acceleration is therefore not strong enough of a finding to conclude that it must presumably be the work of aliens.


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\\Insert Spock quote.

So start with this craft and the measurable performance they employ. Moreover, this is only what has been leaked, the government surely has more evidence.

Let's just start there.
Sounds like you are just starting with conspiracies right from the getgo.



What evidence do you have these unidentified objects must be aliens? What evidence do you have these unidentified objects even originated from space?


Show me one spec of evidence from any of the thousands of astrophysical organizations around the world that have detected an unknown object approaching or entering earth's orbit. Choose from the array of detectors used to track micrometeroids to other arrays tracking objects within the solar system. Which one has seen a "UFO" (whatever it's spacial term is)? Thousands of technologically advanced optics scanning every arc of the sky out into the solar system from myriad of different organizations and not one has seen anything approaching or entering earth's orbit of unknown origin?


Shouldn't that be a clue to you that perhaps whatever "UFO" you're seeing on earth isn't in fact from spacial origin at all, and must have a terrestrial explanation regardless of how advanced or outlandish it looks? There have been many cases of UFO phenomenon that when figured out turned out to be mundane. Why wouldn't you expect this to be the case now? Is because you're compelled with the notion of fancy humanoid aliens or alien computers over say, something we have in development under wraps?

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Old May 19, 2021, 09:49 AM   #109
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I still don't think that we are interesting enough to come all this way. We are like the hillbilly second cousin that lives 3 states over. No one is going out of their way to visit....
This made my morning!
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Old May 19, 2021, 09:52 AM   #110
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@exposed - Ok, do you believe the craft in the San Diego incident is real?
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Old May 19, 2021, 10:03 AM   #111
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@exposed - Ok, do you believe the craft in the San Diego incident is real?
Do you know the difference between real and unidentified?
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Old May 19, 2021, 10:25 AM   #112
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Do you know the difference between real and unidentified?
Dude, do you think the thing, in their sights, is real? as in you can touch it, it exists.


It's a simple question.
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Old May 19, 2021, 10:43 AM   #113
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Dude, do you think the thing, in their sights, is real? as in you can touch it, it exists.


It's a simple question.

And I have a simple answer: I don't know if it's "physically" real. Is there any evidence to show one way or another?

Now I have a simple question for you as well. What evidence is there of this being of interstellar origin?
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Old May 19, 2021, 10:45 AM   #114
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Wow, you must be fun at parties.
People who are "fun at parties" tend to be derps who like to light their farts on fire...also tend to be the flat-earther and aliens visiting earth types too

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Old May 19, 2021, 11:05 AM   #115
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The evidence just isn't there, the observations don't back it up, everything points to these "UFOs" (unidentified by definition) must be terrestrial in nature regardless of how outlandish it looks. Building alien conspiracy theories out of these UFO's might be fun and intriguing, but really shouldn't be taken with a serious grain of salt.
I wouldn't go that far. There's no evidence to suggest they "must be terrestrial in nature".

There's no evidence to suggest that they're alien, except that they demonstrate a level of aviation capability WAAAAY beyond what's currently known/understood. It might be some kind of super secret experimental aircraft, but it's capabilities are pretty far beyond what we'd expect for those.

Ultimately we just don't have any evidence about where they come from. Either explanation is a bit of a jump... aliens might be the bigger jump of the two though.
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Old May 19, 2021, 11:23 AM   #116
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I wouldn't go that far. There's no evidence to suggest they "must be terrestrial in nature".

There's no evidence to suggest that they're alien, except that they demonstrate a level of aviation capability WAAAAY beyond what's currently known/understood. It might be some kind of super secret experimental aircraft, but it's capabilities are pretty far beyond what we'd expect for those.

Ultimately we just don't have any evidence about where they come from. Either explanation is a bit of a jump... aliens might be the bigger jump of the two though.
There is actually, we have not detected any "unidentified" objects entering earth's orbit from space except the usual natural space debris or meteors, let alone our solar system, despite a vast global array of sophisticated observational technology scanning every inch of the sky in every electromagnetic wavelength manned by different governments, institutions and academic organizations. The objects that "sneak" by these detections are meteorites so small and hit our atmosphere so fast they burn up almost immediately.

Anything large, like the sizes indicated in these footages, would most certainly be detected and emit a very very large signature as it entered the earth's atmosphere just by it's presence.

But you can always do the copout "well they have stealth technology", making further and further leaps in logic until Occam's Razor is more like a blunt twig. And this is what separates conspiracy nutcases from intelligent folks in the scientific community, especially astrophysics who's jobs are to study the skies.
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Old May 19, 2021, 11:24 AM   #117
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They are recent and old:



But really exposed you're still not sure after gov confirmation of at least 3 modes of detection, visual, flir and radar simultaneously that these are real?

If there is tech that can spoof all 3 simultaneously its so far beyond what we can even conceive it makes real ufos as actual vehicles look mundane in comparison.
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Old May 19, 2021, 11:34 AM   #118
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They are recent and old:



But really exposed you're still not sure after gov confirmation of at least 3 modes of detection, visual, flir and radar simultaneously that these are real?

If there is tech that can spoof all 3 simultaneously its so far beyond what we can even conceive it makes real ufos as actual vehicles look mundane in comparison.
My question to you is what exactly is "real"? You stated you believe these are from parallel civilizations living simultaneously on earth. Where is the "realism" in this?

I, and most other folks, are perfectly acceptable with UFO phenomenon as "real" as long as you understand that the U in UFO means unidentified, and nothing else. The moment you start trying to invoke fallable metaphysics into the unidentified part of UFO is where you begin to falter. That's all I'm pointing out.

This is again worth repeating.



The lone voice of logic and reason is Neil DeGrass Tyson, a certified astrophysicist, and the anchors appear to be hell bent on perpetrating an alien conspiracy. This unfortunately reflects the public where many want to believe in aliens visiting earth despite the sheer unlikelihood of this being the case.
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Old May 19, 2021, 12:29 PM   #119
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Probably all related to this research: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...lsion_research

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What are the facts, insofar as they are publicly known, or (as at this date) knowable? Well, they seem to amount to this: The Americans have decided to look into the old science-fictional dream of gravity control, or "anti-gravity," to investigate, both theoretically and (if possible) practically the fundamental nature of gravitational fields and their relationship to electromagnetic and other phenomena – and someone (unknown to the present writer) has apparently decided to call all this study by the high-sounding name of "electro-gravitics." Unknown, too – at least unannounced – is the name of agency or individual who decided to encourage, stimulate, or sponsor this effort, also in just what way it is being done. However, that the effort is in progress there can be little doubt, and, of course, it is entirely to be welcomed. (A. V. Cleaver)
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Old May 19, 2021, 12:35 PM   #120
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There is actually, we have not detected any "unidentified" objects entering earth's orbit from space except the usual natural space debris or meteors, let alone our solar system, despite a vast global array of sophisticated observational technology scanning every inch of the sky in every electromagnetic wavelength manned by different governments, institutions and academic organizations. The objects that "sneak" by these detections are meteorites so small and hit our atmosphere so fast they burn up almost immediately.

Anything large, like the sizes indicated in these footages, would most certainly be detected and emit a very very large signature as it entered the earth's atmosphere just by it's presence.

But you can always do the copout "well they have stealth technology", making further and further leaps in logic until Occam's Razor is more like a blunt twig. And this is what separates conspiracy nutcases from intelligent folks in the scientific community, especially astrophysics who's jobs are to study the skies.
I think you might be putting too much faith in these space monitoring institutions and organizations. I understand why though, it jives perfectly with the conclusion you are always working backwards from.

For someone who is so grounded in reality I find it surprising you believe they would be so forthcoming with the public if they had knowledge of unknown objects entering our atmosphere from space. It would likely be as highly classified as the most top secret projects the government runs. Do you really believe they would tell us?

Also, from what I understand those monitoring system programs are optimized to look for very specific objects; meteorites, falling space junk, ICBMs from other nations, etc. I don't think they all just monitor for anything and everything. However, their systems probably do log data of more than what they are focusing on and that database could potentially be mined for anomalies. However my guess is that is not really being done due to things like resource policies and budget constraints.
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