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Old May 17, 2021, 12:29 PM   #61
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Shapeshifter
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And yet the ET notion not my first choice as an answer. Even less if the accounts of crashes and behaviors and also creatures (they seem very much variations of primates to me) indicating they are aware and sometimes afraid of aggression on our part are true. IMO its a parallel or older civilisation that maybe ahead of us by a few hundred or thousand years at the most. Much of the tech we see maybe just a few decades away from our own labs. Its stuff we've dabbled in science fiction for generations and we know science fiction has a tendency to become science fact not very long after the fiction has been written.
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Old May 17, 2021, 01:40 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by AllexxisF1 View Post
Interesting theory.

Right up there with these UAP's being objects from our own future.
I wouldnt go that far. Time travel is a bit too far out for me. The idea here is that there are multiple variations of the parallel civilisation concept. Humans are too born to tribal and classicist and ethnic divisions ect... We see that in places like India and africa and all over really all the time where one class or tribe is wealthy and progressing rapidly and the other isolated from the rest living nearby at a near archaic subsistence level.

Take some feudal group from the middle ages during the enlightenment where science was taking off. See the concepts floated by such as Da Vinci. They have immense wealth from centuries of domination and empire building where everyone pays tax to the king. They acquire some of the best and brightest and start developping a sideline class/civilisation which probably goes into overdrive when the revolutions start overthrowing the feudal regimes. They are maybe 100-200 years ahead of us but thats saying a lot. They are technologically much more advanced and have genetic engineering of themselves making them look alien. But healthier, smarter, longer lived ect...

Thats just one possibility. No aliens needed.
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Old May 17, 2021, 01:53 PM   #63
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But wouldn't a move advance civilization on this planet be the more predominant?

Looking at history it's not like the one leading in technology just sits tight, they go out and conquer. In your theory, they remain hidden.
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Old May 17, 2021, 02:00 PM   #64
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It might be too small to be dominant... They might number a few hundred thousand or couple million. The higher/richer the class the smaller it is typically. One thing we dont know is what was the key technology that gave them that leap. Did they hit a ceiling after that leap? Maybe they see us catching up eventually. They seem concerned by nuclear wepans and when fighter aircraft target them so maybe they arent invulnerable. Maybe they have some high end tech but rely on us for their subsistence for some things they cant easily provide for themselves. So they are dependant and need for us to be stable as the larger underlying civilisation that can produce a wider variety of things.

http://www.nicap.org/reports/cuban1.htm

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The story became known to CAUS in the form of a statement by a security specialist who was assigned to the 6947th Security Squadron centered at Homestead Air Force Base, a unit of the U.S. Air Force Security Service (AFSS). The specialist had attended a lecture in 1978 by nuclear physicist and UFO researcher Stanton T. Friedman and informed Friedman of the incident at the conclusion of the talk. Friedman asked for additional details, which were provided later in the form of a typed statement by the specialist.

The 6947th Security Squadron's mission was to monitor all Cuban Air Force communications and radar transmissions. One hundred of the squadron's men were assigned to Detachment "A," located at Key West Naval Air Station. This forward base against attack from Cuba was on Boca Chica Key, a tropical island in the Florida Keys, east of Key West and about 97 miles from the nearest Cuban coastline. Several of these units were scattered geographically to enable direction-finding equipment to locate fixed or mobile land-based radar sites and communications centers and to plot aircraft movements from flight transmissions.

One day in March, 1967, the Spanish-speaking intercept operators of Detachment "A" heard Cuban air defense radar controllers report an unidentified "bogey" approaching Cuba from the northeast. The UFO entered Cuban air space at a height of about 10,000 meters (about 33,000 feet) and sped off at nearly Mach 1 (nearly 660 mph). Two MIG-21 jet fighters were scrambled to meet it.

The single seat MIG-21 UM E76 is the standard, top-of-the-line fighter supplied to Soviet bloc countries such as Cuba (MIG stands for Soviet aircraft designers Mikoyan and Gurevich). It is capable of Mach 2.1 (1,385 mph) in level flight, service ceiling of 59,000 feet, and combat radius of more than 300 miles on internal fuel.

The jets were guided to within five kilometers (three miles) of the UFO by Cuban ground control intercept radar personnel. The flight leader radioed that the object was a bright metallic sphere with no visible markings or appendages. When a try at radio contact failed, Cuban air defense headquarters ordered the flight leader to arm his weapons and destroy the object. The leader reported his radar was locked onto the bogey and his missiles were armed. Seconds later, the wingman screamed to the ground controller that his leader's jet had exploded. When he gained his composure, the wing man radioed there was no smoke or flame, that his leader's MIG-21 had disintegrated. Cuban radar then reported the UFO quickly accelerated and climbed above 30,000 meters (98,000 feet). At last report, it was heading south-southeast towards South America.
The 2004 report by the Nimitz F18 creew said the tic tac reacted rapidly to being seen/targeted.
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Old May 17, 2021, 02:05 PM   #65
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Getting to the brass tax of this, if the Navy agrees that this thing was real, then I'm sure the U.S. DOD has been actively trying to study and or capture one of these things off our coast these last few years.

If not, then why not?

I'm looking at this as a blank slate. We saw them, we all agree they're real. Now it's time (or they already have) to begin to spend money and material to figure what the hell they are.
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Old May 17, 2021, 02:17 PM   #66
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The feudal world also inspired 'power behind the throne types' who saw it as a more sustainable and flexible way to be at or near the top of the food chain. The parallel civilisation might want to be relatively hidden and stealthy which is merely an 'as long as possible' sort of thing usually but for reasons of dependency cant vacate the world and thus are in some ways integrated with us at some level.

What the feudal worls was obsessed with is maybe the same as what they are interested in. Power in all its forms so weapons and anything thats related like vehicles and propulsion. The fountain of youth so some kind of breeding/genetic engineering. But also to be hidden/invisible to the masses behind their 'castle walls' so they can do things they couldnt easily do before as the people often revolted.

They might have focused on these things to the detriment of others. Which is why they are still here. But thats not to say they cant be enlightened to some degree at least some of them. Whatever engagement they have with us may have the simple benefit of fair trade to keep it as sustainbale as possible.
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Old May 17, 2021, 02:19 PM   #67
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Getting to the brass tax of this, if the Navy agrees that this thing was real, then I'm sure the U.S. DOD has been actively trying to study and or capture one of these things off our coast these last few years.

If not, then why not?

I'm looking at this as a blank slate. We saw them, we all agree they're real. Now it's time (or they already have) to begin to spend money and material to figure what the hell they are.
If the gov doesnt do a full blown task force like Project Blue Book then we know the gov knows something at this point and is just trying to cover this up as long as they can. Typically they want the media frenzy to go away as it usually does so they drag out any attempt at investigation.
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Old May 17, 2021, 02:21 PM   #68
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if it's not our tech, and it's not some breakaway civilization we somehow missed ala wakanda type thing, then it's alien.

"if" it's alien however I highly highly doubt it's little green men, or grey as popular media loves to show.

They'd be unmanned robotic probes, AI controlled.

This is how humanity will end up exploring the stars, what with the limits of the speed of light and distances involved. We will send out something akin to von neumann probes one day to other stars to do the work for us.
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Old May 17, 2021, 02:22 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by AllexxisF1 View Post
The funny part is, once you have agreed that these unidentified objects are real, then Occam's Razor gets pretty damn funny.

Because the odds that some Nation-state has this level of technology are so far out, the simple conclusion is that has to be extraterrestrial.
Not really and this is a bad misuse of Occam's razor.
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Old May 17, 2021, 02:29 PM   #70
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And yet the ET notion not my first choice as an answer. Even less if the accounts of crashes and behaviors and also creatures (they seem very much variations of primates to me) indicating they are aware and sometimes afraid of aggression on our part are true. IMO its a parallel or older civilisation that maybe ahead of us by a few hundred or thousand years at the most. Much of the tech we see maybe just a few decades away from our own labs. Its stuff we've dabbled in science fiction for generations and we know science fiction has a tendency to become science fact not very long after the fiction has been written.

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if it's not our tech, and it's not some breakaway civilization we somehow missed then it's alien.

"if" it's alien however I highly highly doubt it's little green men, or grey as popular media loves to show.

They'd be unmanned robotic probes, AI controlled.

This is how humanity will end up exploring the stars, what with the limits of the speed of light and distances involved. We will send out something akin to von neumann probes one day to other stars to do the work for us.
When this is resolved, if ever, you may be very disappointed.

Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence, and there's no evidence to makes the jumps and leaps you both are looking for here.

In fact, the departure from rational is quite alarming. You'll notice none of the highest scientific organizations around the globe, especially those in astrophysics, are concerned about this or more bluntly giving this the time of day. This is because there is zero evidence of anything astrophysical. Zero observations is zero merit.

The problem with government conspiracies (and 60 minute hit pieces) is that the line between observation, evidence, and deception is often blurred and the general armchair public loves it.
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Old May 17, 2021, 02:43 PM   #71
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Maybe they'll finally let people in to see this?
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Old May 17, 2021, 03:14 PM   #72
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Not really and this is a bad misuse of Occam's razor.
How so?
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Old May 17, 2021, 03:27 PM   #73
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How so?

What logical connection or relationship is there between the footage and "aliens"? How did this supersede the practicality of other explanations. Occam's razor is not a ideological tool to be used on whim, the sooner you realize this the sooner you'll see how absurd your use of Occam's razor is.
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Old May 17, 2021, 05:50 PM   #74
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I'm still going to go with 'experimental aircraft and top secret stuff' as my go-to. Mainly because I think that we, as a race and a planet, are too damn bland to be interesting to ETs.

Plus, we went from a bicycle shop making an airplane in 1903 to landing a man on the moon in 1969. From that point on, not much has changed in the general publics eye. That is the leap that I can't fathom. That technology hasn't advanced much past the level of 1970's tech when it comes to propulsion? Come on.

It took 65 years to get from from Kitty Hawk to the moon.
It's been 52 years since we landed on the moon.

And we live in a nation that prides itself in making toilet paper top secret.....

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Old May 17, 2021, 05:56 PM   #75
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When this is resolved, if ever, you may be very disappointed.

Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence, and there's no evidence to makes the jumps and leaps you both are looking for here.

In fact, the departure from rational is quite alarming. You'll notice none of the highest scientific organizations around the globe, especially those in astrophysics, are concerned about this or more bluntly giving this the time of day. This is because there is zero evidence of anything astrophysical. Zero observations is zero merit.

The problem with government conspiracies (and 60 minute hit pieces) is that the line between observation, evidence, and deception is often blurred and the general armchair public loves it.
Michio Kaku had something to say about this and it was that once you do get extraordinary evidence and this is just that in fact its then the debunkers who need counter extraordinary evidence to pursue their own claims.

Large orthodoxies in academia like any other human organisation dont move quickly when things are asked to be changed in a drastic fashion. But give them time. If we get a task force that floods the public eye with more evidence they wont be able to ignore it.
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Old May 17, 2021, 05:57 PM   #76
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I'm still going to go with 'experimental aircraft and top secret stuff' as my go-to. Mainly because I think that we, as a race and a planet, are too damn bland to be interesting to ETs.

Plus, we went from a bicycle shop making an airplane in 1903 to landing a man on the moon in 1969. From that point on, not much has changed in the general publics eye. That is the leap that I can't fathom. That technology hasn't advanced much past the level of 1970's tech when it comes to propulsion? Come on.

It took 65 years to get from from Kitty Hawk to the moon.
It's been 52 years since we landed on the moon.

And we live in a nation that prides itself in making toilet paper top secret.....

The problem with that is that we have similar claims running since WW2. So its not that recent.
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Old May 17, 2021, 06:19 PM   #77
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Old May 17, 2021, 06:22 PM   #78
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Whatever it is, Disney will incorporate it into the MCU.
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Old May 17, 2021, 06:55 PM   #79
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The problem with that is that we have similar claims running since WW2. So its not that recent.
And there were reports of exotic propulsion being researched by Germany at the same time as well.

Maybe that tech was being tested and we incorporated that into our skunkworks after project paperclip and the defection of the German scientists after WW2.

Like I said, that is a much more plausible explanation.
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Old May 17, 2021, 07:33 PM   #80
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Michio Kaku had something to say about this and it was that once you do get extraordinary evidence and this is just that in fact its then the debunkers who need counter extraordinary evidence to pursue their own claims.

Large orthodoxies in academia like any other human organisation dont move quickly when things are asked to be changed in a drastic fashion. But give them time. If we get a task force that floods the public eye with more evidence they wont be able to ignore it.

That's the thing, extraordinary evidence doesn't exist in this case. Remember all you have is footage of unidentified flying objects. By definition, unidentified means you don't know what it is, so you can't say it or even invoke Occam's razor that it is aliens / parallel universe beings / etc..

And if you DO want to make those claims, that is where evidence is required. Then the burden of proof is on you.

Just because something is unidentified or unexplained, doesn't mean it's aliens or (insert another belief here).

As I've stated before, there's no correlating evidence anywhere or anytime in history of unidentified objects entering earth space from interstellar origins outside of meteors / comets/ etc.. (Including the famous Oumuamua object that had a rather mundane explanation). This despite the sheer amount of technology and eyes we have around the globe tracking orbital space debris to tracking asteroids, comets, meteors flinging around our solar system.

This evidence in itself is enough to properly invoke Occam's razor that what you're seeing on earth, no matter how outlandish or far fetching or advanced it looks, must be of terrestrial origin, even if we don't know the explanation and will NEVER know the explanation of these sightings.

This is why you don't see astrophysic organizations around the world taking this seriously. The evidence just isn't there for what you're looking for, and you might be surprised at the explanation if and when it does come.

I also personally agree with Andino here. You just need to look at recent military patents.

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Old May 17, 2021, 08:36 PM   #81
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Its not evidence of aliens but it is evidence that ufo's are real. And the amazing characteristics of the vehicles are as astounding as we've heard of for decades.
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Old May 18, 2021, 12:38 AM   #82
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I also personally agree with Andino here. You just need to look at recent military patents.
Didn't even think about the patent stuff.

There is some wild patent stuff out there.
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Old May 18, 2021, 01:20 AM   #83
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https://thehill.com/opinion/internat...AuKZp8bmw&rl=1

All 3 sides of the aisle on the issue... odd bedfellows.

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At first glance, John Brennan and John Ratcliffe have little in common. Indeed, beyond serving atop America’s intelligence agencies, Brennan and Ratcliffe epitomize the deep political discord of the post-Trump era.

Brennan, a former CIA director, launched scathing verbal assaults against President Trump, quickly becoming Public Enemy No. 1 among conservative media outlets and many Trump supporters.

As Trump’s hand-picked director of national intelligence, Ratcliffe faced a torrent of criticism for politicizing intelligence for Trump’s benefit.

The two even engaged in something of a feud, with Brennan launching a blistering attack on Ratcliffe for releasing sensitive, unverified intelligence allegedly to boost Trump’s 2020 reelection bid.

Yet for their extreme political differences, Brennan and Ratcliffe share a unique bond. They are among a small but steadily growing cohort of former government officials speaking candidly about a series of bizarre, unexplained encounters that occurred in American airspace in recent years.

Perhaps emboldened by groundbreaking reporting by the New York Times, interviews by Fox News’ Tucker Carlson and the public disclosure of photos, videos and jaw-dropping pilot accounts of encounters with mysterious objects maneuvering in ways that defy the laws of physics and aerodynamics, Brennan and Ratcliffe’s recent comments are remarkable — and remarkably bipartisan. They break from decades of official deflection and inaction on unidentified aerial phenomena.

In March, Ratcliffe heightened public anticipation over a forthcoming government report on the military’s encounters, stating that “there are a lot more sightings than have been made public.”
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Old May 18, 2021, 09:03 AM   #84
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Does the object seen in the F-18 camera footage and radar is real?

Yes.

Can the performance of this UAP be measured and quantified?

Yes.


Do any militaries in the world have the capability that matches this UAP?

No.

Do any secret projects in the militaries of the world have this capability?

***Maybe***

*If the answer is no, that no one on Earth has this capability, then it has to come from somewhere else.

*If the answer is yes, then some Nation has invented a new propulsion system that can be fitted into a drone.

*The small inconvenient fact that persists, is that pilots have been reporting the performance of these UAP's for the last fifty years.

So, yes you can use Occam's Razor here against these two theories. The simple obvious answer is that's it's a drone with a new propulsion system.

Why off the coast of the U.S.? Because testing over a large open ocean is a pretty good place to do that.
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Old May 18, 2021, 11:39 AM   #85
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I can't believe how many people actually believe that aliens routinely visit this planet in various ways...it's kinda laughable actually. The universe is a VAST, VAST place...chances are if there is any intelligent life out there it's far too remote to ever visit. I'd believe a unicorn farting rainbows was on earth before an alien craft
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Old May 18, 2021, 11:51 AM   #86
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The sightings are pretty much worldwide in areas where people can see them so its not just training areas. That we are highlight sightings in training areas lately is just because the military class monitoring equipment in training areas is much more capable and getting better all the time.

When you think about it tho its easy to class the military industrial complex as one such theory of a hidden or parallel civilisation. Its gotten so big and vast that yes some compartmentalized element of it could be behind at least some of the ufo's. But I dont see any example of a military technology being kept secret that long, 70-80+ years. 10-20 years sure but beyond that it starts to strain credulity in that respect.
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Old May 18, 2021, 12:20 PM   #87
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I still say it's some Skunk Works project.
The few Top Brass that actually know about it are playing dumb to keep the secret.

I mean, we were flying at Mach 3 in the cold war... no way we just decided "good enough". US also spends more on military than most of the world combined...we're doing something with all that.

Letting the "normal" pilots see it also tests the capabilities of the craft against the best of current (public knowledge, even if some is classified) generation tech.
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Old May 18, 2021, 01:54 PM   #88
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I still say it's some Skunk Works project.
The few Top Brass that actually know about it are playing dumb to keep the secret.

I mean, we were flying at Mach 3 in the cold war... no way we just decided "good enough". US also spends more on military than most of the world combined...we're doing something with all that.

Letting the "normal" pilots see it also tests the capabilities of the craft against the best of current (public knowledge, even if some is classified) generation tech.
So if you watch footage of high-performance quadcopter drones, they seem to move in ways similar to what's described in the UFO reports... albeit much faster. Nearly instant acceleration, stopping, etc. I wonder if you built a quadcopter with jet engines, or maybe rockets, if you could achieve that kind of speed? If not, then we must be talking about gravity engines, etc... much more sci-fi areas.

Heck, even rc helicopters move in ways that appear very alien.
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Old May 18, 2021, 02:53 PM   #89
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So if the general public were to think of the fastest jet around the ones that know something about aviation would think of the SR-71. It went Mach 3+.

The SR-71 was built in 1963. 58 years ago..... Many of the 'cigar shaped UFO' claims were of the SR-71... In order to replace it then something much faster and much more maneuverable would have to be made.

Chances are, those planes are top secret and we won't know about them.
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Old May 18, 2021, 03:03 PM   #90
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Be cool to see gforce measurements in those drones. Also not just the propulsion but the energy source as the autonomy of the ufos is up to tens of hours of constant observations...
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