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Old Mar 18, 2006, 02:54 PM   #1
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Tec
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The ultimate CCC/.NET vote. Microsoft drops .NET from Vista

[Repost of the content. Last time the forum kept the thread but ate the content somehow, creating a 0-entry post?]

This one's for all the people who said "choke on the .NET in CCC, that's where Windows is headed." Or not. Even Microsoft has decided that .NET isn't good enough for their products. Read it for yourself.

The .NET assemblies have slowly been replaced by native code as even MS recognizes .NET is not ready for prime time. From the article:
Quote:
My conclusion is that Microsoft has lost its confidence in .NET. They implement very little of their own code using .NET. The framework is provided as part of the operating system, but this is so that code written by third party developers can run on Vista without the large download of the framework. Supplying the .NET runtime for third party developers in this way is similar to Microsoft supplying msvbvm60.dll as part of XP.
I do recommend reading the entire article, since the ebb and flow of MS's ".NET is the future" pitch giving way to "This isn't working out like we hoped" is clearly evident.

Hopefully now that even their pitchmaster has thrown in the propganda towel, ATI will take the hint and either resume work on CP, write a clean, fast replacement, or put some resources and formal support behind one of the alternatives.
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Old Mar 18, 2006, 04:49 PM   #2
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Default Well, NOW what?!

If Microsoft is dumping .NET (and that really surprises the hell out of me), then what is the raison d'etre, if any, for ATI to continue to rely on it for the CCC?

Meanwhile, I've been trying to get a response from ATI's Customer Care department about using another kind of ATI Control Panel. I've written two tickets at their site. They only acknowledged the first one, but provided no answer. I'm hoping for better luck with the second one. Here's a cut/paste:

"Please, all I am trying to find out is whether or not the new 6.3 Control Panel for the FireMV 2400 PCI OpenGL cards will work with a Radeon x800Pro, which is the card that I have.

For several reasons, I don't want to use the CCC. But I love my x800 Pro card, and love Catalyst Drivers. But it's a major drag not having a new Control Panel any more. If the OpenGL Control Panels will work without a lot of "surgery", that would be great
!"

It's likely that everybody at ATI is running around in circles today with their hair on fire if MS really has sh*t-canned the .NET framework. They laid a lot of money and prestige on the line trying to put lipstick on the CCC pig....
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Old Mar 18, 2006, 05:38 PM   #3
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It works fine.
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Old Mar 18, 2006, 06:49 PM   #4
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTeeth
It works fine.
Yes, if you ignore the load times, the resources used and the issues caused by CCC, it does work fine.

I still don't see the point in making a control panel all flashy. It just needs to do it's job, who gives a **** what it looks like. I'd prefer to have that extra 50MB of RAM and process cycles back.
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Old Mar 18, 2006, 08:22 PM   #5
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@acrimony:
Hell, u're using 2GB of RAM. You will NEVER notice whether there are 50MB for CCC (which actually are 18MB at my system!) or not!
Even with 1GB RAM it's hardly noticeable!

And load times have increased by each driver release. Issues will always be there, just like with the old CP.
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Old Mar 18, 2006, 08:49 PM   #6
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ATI should just write their Driver UI in WxWidgets. seriously it will solve every problem.

Multiplatform, fast, etc....
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Old Mar 18, 2006, 10:42 PM   #7
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acrimony
Yes, if you ignore the load times, the resources used and the issues caused by CCC, it does work fine.

I still don't see the point in making a control panel all flashy. It just needs to do it's job, who gives a **** what it looks like. I'd prefer to have that extra 50MB of RAM and process cycles back.

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Old Mar 18, 2006, 11:48 PM   #8
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I am in the process of buying a new card. I have ATI 9800 Pro, and have been using Omega drivers because I hate the CCC. CCC is bloated and looks dog ugly! I just want functionality that is fast to load.

I think this time around I'm going with Nvidia. They still have a classic layout and don't require that .NET ****. I've had several ATI cards, ATI Rage, ATI 8500, 9800 Pro. So I'm not biased either way. I just don't like bloat nor being forced to use CCC instead of Catalyst Control Panel. ATI has been doing a disservice to their community, by not listening to us. Even if I have 2GB of RAM, 50MB for a video driver is TOO MUCH, it is bloated. There is no reason that a video driver should take that much memory. ATI needs to buy their developers a new compiler that optimizes memory usage, or get new developers altogether.
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Old Mar 19, 2006, 02:54 AM   #9
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Default

I posted a link awile ago, of IT guys stating this same thing. The fact is Vista wont be built around .Net, if it was I doubt anybody would buy it. Could you see 40 computers on your network running this extra .Net process and not come to a crawl?. I wish ATI would have picked another platform to control the drivers.

IMHO is It just makes it easy/quick for ATI and nothing else.
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Old Mar 19, 2006, 06:24 AM   #10
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Default

Well, ATI already have a control panel that doesn't use .net, offers the same options, loads faster and uses less resources. CCC offers a new look for users and that is all. With Microsoft out of the way I honestly don't see a reason to even use CCC anymore since it is slower and uses more reasources. Why spend time and money making it faster when the old control panel already is faster and better optimized while offering the same functionality? If they are after a new look then they could do what Nvidia did and make a control panel that is equally effeciant to the old CP and even looks nice WITHOUT .net.
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Old Mar 19, 2006, 02:27 PM   #11
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Default And the reply from ATI about the OpenGL control panel was...

...absolutely nothing of any use at all.

I had posed this question, twice, in two "customer care" tickets: "Please, all I am trying to find out is whether or not the new 6.3 Control Panel for the FireMV 2400 PCI OpenGL cards will work with a Radeon x800Pro, which is the card that I have."

What I got back, twice, was auto-regurgitated email about downloading drivers. This was the first time I'd ever written to ATI itself for help, and I sure won't make that mistake again.

OK, now, back to the matter at hand -- if MS really is dropping .NET from Vista, is there any reason that anyone would continue using it for anything? I still can't quite make myself believe this. I'm a member of the MSDN and surely they would have said something to us about it....
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Old Mar 19, 2006, 10:31 PM   #12
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Default



...pardon me
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 01:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by androgen
Yup.
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 11:01 AM   #14
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Default

And the laughs are directed at...?

In other news...

Quote:
The XNA Framework contains a custom implementation of the Microsoft® .NET Framework and new game-development-specific libraries designed to help game developers more easily create cross-platform games on Windows and Xbox 360 using the highly productive C# programming language. Using the XNA Framework, game developers will benefit from the ability to re-use code and game assets in developing multiplatform titles, without sacrificing performance or flexibility.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060320/sfm082.html?.v=40

Oh noes, somebody didn't get the memo about .Net for the lose and anything else for the win. And as for the link in the OP, it even states...

Quote:
Microsoft's mantra should be: new applications should always be written in .NET
Which is exactly what ati is doing.
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 12:42 PM   #15
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I think the bottom line here is the old control panel will work just fine in vista. And no offence but exactly what does XNA Frame work have to do with drivers or their control panel?. It says its for programing cross platform games?.

Last edited by Flakman : Mar 20, 2006 at 12:45 PM.
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 01:53 PM   #16
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Vista itself will not use .NET because (as MS has always said) .NET is not appropriate for all situations - namely, the operating system itself. There is no/little managed code in the OS. HOWEVER, that doens't mean that they dropped .NET. Future applications from MS *might* be written in .NET in the future, but the OS is native code.
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 05:11 PM   #17
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flakman
I think the bottom line here is the old control panel will work just fine in vista. And no offence but exactly what does XNA Frame work have to do with drivers or their control panel?. It says its for programing cross platform games?.
Merely to show that .Net is alive and well, and even at the forefront of Microsoft's new big deal initiative, XNA. This is to provide contrast to the original post of the doom and gloom of .Net. That's what it has to do with drivers and a control panel... A forward looking driver/control panel, which the point was further driven home with the quote from the original link in which forward looking apps should be written in .Net.

Now then, for all the tray tools lovers, use that and be happy. If it's "just registry tweaks" like the elite have pointed out, then roll your own app and be happy. No need to constantly bash CCC/.Net.
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 07:42 PM   #18
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Default One question, please, about .NET...

If .NET is really an integral part of Microsoft OS', going forward, does nVidia plan to jump on board and adopt it, too? Looks like they'd have to, if .NET is really going to have such a ubiquitous presence.
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 09:24 PM   #19
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Default

the artical you linked to leaves out some informatiom
(cough*** someone desn't like .net**)

Quote:
Executive Summary
This article presents results of an investigation of the usage of .NET on five versions of Windows. The operating system files for the first version of Windows tested, XP Pro with Service Pack 2 applied, did not use .NET at all. This is understandable because XP was released before .NET was first released. The next version of Windows was the PDC 2003 build of Longhorn. This has a similar number of unmanaged executable files as XPSP2 but it also had thirty five .NET assemblies. Amongst these assemblies were two services. In addition, the desktop shell, through Windows Explorer, hosted the .NET runtime. It is clear that Microsoft intended the .NET framework to be an important constituent of the Longhorn operating system.
Funny why didn't they mention .Net 1.1 was even an OPTIONAL PART OF SP2
if you made a slipstreamCD or downloaded the full package you will find the .net 1.1 installer......

Shines a new light on at lest part of this artical .. who cares if the OS
doesnt use.net at all!!!!

Has this guy even seen say "managed directX for .net" that newer games that game like BF2 to nam one use...

MS has big plans for .net regardless
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 09:31 PM   #20
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Article seems like its jumping to conclusions to me.
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Old Mar 21, 2006, 09:57 AM   #21
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon1
@acrimony:
Hell, u're using 2GB of RAM. You will NEVER notice whether there are 50MB for CCC (which actually are 18MB at my system!) or not!
Even with 1GB RAM it's hardly noticeable!

And load times have increased by each driver release. Issues will always be there, just like with the old CP.
I totally agree with u!
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Old Mar 21, 2006, 12:49 PM   #22
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I find it so strange that in the PC enthusiast crowd, there are more .NET haters than are people in China.

I'm in the computer/web-applications programming business. Here it is the complete opposite. Everyone seems to want to know .NET (even though the company I work for does little with it).

I just find it strange that it differs so much.
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Old Mar 21, 2006, 03:50 PM   #23
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I just installed the latest Vista Beta 5308 and .NET Framework was already installed.I also installed the new ATi 5308 and it comes with CCC.

Just incase some people didnt know.
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Old Mar 21, 2006, 05:47 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneCoolAMD
I just installed the latest Vista Beta 5308 and .NET Framework was already installed.I also installed the new ATi 5308 and it comes with CCC.
Are you having problems with anti-aliasing? I want to try vista x64 on my main machine, but on my 2nd machine (geforce 6800gt) enabling AA causes games to stutter badly. That is with built-in vista driver and also with the beta driver from nvidia.

I'm starting to dig Vista, and I'd like to test it out on my main machine, but not if I can't get AA on it anymore. I didn't mind this problem so much on my 2nd machine, it looks like crap even with AA
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Old Mar 21, 2006, 11:34 PM   #25
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Question

the "CCC affair" is simply an inexplicable mistery: IS THERE A SINGLE VALID REASON FOR the creation of the ABOMINATION called Catalys Control Center ???? WHO CREATED it ? and WHY ??????

ATI... please.. give us back the old control panel!!!

A control panel is something that should allow to change the settings of a graphic cards in a fast and practical way.. not a slow, buggy screensaver with a car running on an endless road ..that eats every resource of the PC..

we need:

SIMPLICITY
SPEED
RELIABILITY

(that's the opposite of CCC)

i can't really understand why ATI seems to like to loose customers with unexplicable silly decisions.. the only truth is that ccc is heavy, unpractical and quite useless.. the only thing it deserve is to be dumped with .NET
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 02:18 AM   #26
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Guess we wont know for sure until next year how well it works in Vista.

http://news.com.com/Taking+stock+of+...3-6052372.html
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 02:51 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon1
@acrimony:
Hell, u're using 2GB of RAM. You will NEVER notice whether there are 50MB for CCC (which actually are 18MB at my system!) or not!
Even with 1GB RAM it's hardly noticeable!
Even if I had 8GB of RAM I wouldn't see the need for eating 50MB+ of RAM for a control panel. I reformatted recently, and when I was using CCC I was using 194MB of RAM staring at my desktop. With no CCC I sit at 123MB. Same services stopped, only difference being CCC is not installed.

Regardless of the amount of RAM being used, having the multiple process CCC uses running uses CPU cycles. Even if it's minuscule, it's unneccassary. This is what people call bloatware. Give me basic functionality, I don't need some jazzy interface to change anti-aliasing settings and neither does anyone else.
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 10:40 AM   #28
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Default Please forgive the repeat, but it's a very important question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nofool
If .NET is really an integral part of Microsoft OS', going forward, does nVidia plan to jump on board and adopt it, too? Looks like they'd have to, if .NET is really going to have such a ubiquitous presence.
If .NET is so vital and important to Microsoft in future OS' (now further into the future than before ), does anyone know if nVidia is going to adopt .NET as a mandatory constituent?

It's a tongue-in-cheek question. We can b*tch and complain forever about the CCC and its reliance on .NET, but if nVidia is going to follow suit and do essentially the same thing, then we face very much the same pig-and-lipstick situation.

What's nVidia going to do? Anybody know?
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 06:04 PM   #29
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WxWidgets FTW!

I agree with the earlier poster. WxWidgets are fast, and they're mutliplatform so us linux users could finally get a control panel.
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Old Mar 24, 2006, 09:06 PM   #30
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flakman
Guess we wont know for sure until next year how well it works in Vista.

http://news.com.com/Taking+stock+of+...3-6052372.html
bah, stuck with xp.

Was rly lookin forward to aeroglass and 3d windows.
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