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-   -   Nvidia RTX DLSS/Ray Tracing Discussion (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=34049038)

the_sextein Jul 18, 2020 09:50 AM

My personal expectations when the 2080TI was announced was that RTX would be like SM3.0 in that it would only be supported in a handful of titles during the card's lifetime and the implementation would be ho hum. As for DLSS, I wasn't even the slightest bit interested because I usually expect enough power from the top end cards to allow good performance at native resolution. Since the 2080TI was falling short of 60fps minimums with no SLI support from day one I didn't bother especially at the asking prices.

I considered DLSS Nvidia's way of fighting the game console's fake resolution marketing claims so that it was still clear who was the graphics leader. I'm not surprised that Nvidia found a way to do these resolution hacks better than AMD but I must say I am truly surprised that DLSS is considered as good or even better than native by some. I'm skeptical that it's actually better than native but even if it's not, DLSS could be the answer to 8K gaming in the near future since we clearly won't have the raw power to push it in new titles natively for some time. I've got to say that DLSS has put on a good show and looks very promising now that it's had time to mature and I'm sure RTX effects will be more transformational in the near future now that the 3000 series has the actual brute force to push RTX effects in a more full feature sort of way.

demo Jul 18, 2020 09:14 PM

In some cases it does look better than native, namely up close when there's transparencies (like hair), but I guess that's to be expected from some form of SSAA.

It seems to lose detail in mid to long distances though. I find terrain looks noticeably clearer in Death Stranding at native (ground and rock parallax, grass, textures). It also introduces aliasing artifacts along edges in motion, usually in high contrast scenes, and once you notice it you can't un-notice it.. in fact, you start to see it everywhere in motion. Reminds me of ugly SMAA/FXAA shimmer, but not as bad.

Pretty amazing tech though, and great for the 4k+ era.

Exposed Jul 19, 2020 10:56 AM

Thats because you're over sharpening from your own words. Sharpening should never be confused with "fine detail".

DLSS 2.0 will give you finer (actual fine detail) over native. I've never seen a case where dlss 2.0 was fuzzier or blurring than native, and that includes death stranding. The mountains, rocks look just as detailed like native. I find the grass to look even better up close and in the distance with dlss 2.0.

I haven't seen any tech site replicate your findings either. If DLSS 2.0 was losing any sort of detail it be shown in comparisons and id be the first to notice because texture detail is very important to me.

NIGELG Jul 19, 2020 12:48 PM

It's all in the eye of the beholder.

Not everyone will see some things the same.

Trunks0 Jul 19, 2020 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338207083)
Thats because you're over sharpening from your own words. Sharpening should never be confused with "fine detail".

DLSS 2.0 will give you finer (actual fine detail) over native. I've never seen a case where dlss 2.0 was fuzzier or blurring than native, and that includes death stranding. The mountains, rocks look just as detailed like native. I find the grass to look even better up close and in the distance with dlss 2.0.

I haven't seen any tech site replicate your findings either. If DLSS 2.0 was losing any sort of detail it be shown in comparisons and id be the first to notice because texture detail is very important to me.

Um... Arstechnica noted a detail loss, but only in a cut scene.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/...itive-version/

And it's been noted before. But it's not like it's loosing it everywhere. Overall it's looking better. And with a little refinement might be further solvable.

SIrPauly Jul 19, 2020 02:35 PM

It kills me that I can't investigate and share findings with Dlss.

Exposed Jul 19, 2020 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trunks0 (Post 1338207101)
Um... Arstechnica noted a detail loss, but only in a cut scene.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/...itive-version/

And it's been noted before. But it's not like it's loosing it everywhere. Overall it's looking better.


Yes, only in a cutscene. He suggests Nvidia implement a different filter for cutscenes, but in my opinion, why bother. Gameplay is what matters.

Trunks0 Jul 19, 2020 02:50 PM

Debatable. Your eyes are more likely to notice fine details during a cut scene when you are not being distracted by game-play. But if you didn't know it, you wouldn't miss it. I'm surprised Ars even caught it.

Demo has always noticed stuff like this. So if any member was going to notice a detail like this, it's gonna be Demo.

SIrPauly Jul 19, 2020 02:58 PM

Demo has a keen eye and personally don't disregard what he offers. The review I offered mentioned about artifacting especially in high color and lighting contrasts.

bill dennison Jul 19, 2020 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trunks0 (Post 1338207106)
Debatable. Your eyes are more likely to notice fine details during a cut scene when you are not being distracted by game-play. But if you didn't know it, you wouldn't miss it. I'm surprised Ars even caught it.

Demo has always noticed stuff like this. So if any member was going to notice a detail like this, it's gonna be Demo.

different screens may show it more also

wonder how it is on on my 55 CX i notice a lot more with this oled
but i'm done buying games i will never play just to lick the pretty pictures :bleh:

SIrPauly Jul 19, 2020 04:51 PM

This investigative review on Dlss 2 is pretty intricate and detail oriented. Personally investigate quality of features from a foundational low resolution and work my way up.

https://youtu.be/N8M8ygA9yWc

the_sextein Jul 19, 2020 09:06 PM

That's an interesting video comparison. It looks like some light sources are blown out and the sparks are erased from the scene but it provides better AA. I'm more concerned with texture quality myself but it seems the various methods of AA have a negative effect on the texture quality at times so it's not a case where one always looks better than the other. At 4k I find AA less of a game changer than it used to be at lower resolutions but it's still helpful to the overall image. Hopefully DLSS 3.0 is a bit better. All that aside, Nvidia still has to program support for DLSS on a per game basis so it simply won't be available in many titles. I'm glad it's around though, It's always nice to have another option to play with to squeeze every last drop of quality out of the image when you are struggling for good performance.

Based on some of the video's I've seen, we may need DLSS even with a 3080TI to run Cyberpunk 2077 at 4k. I figure SLI won't be supported or they would be proudly advertising it's support of it by now.

demo Jul 22, 2020 06:47 PM

I just tried playing DS on my monitor for the first time, 21:9 3440x1440, and have to admit DLSS looks far better than native on this display. Not just a little, but better by a country mile.

Really odd as I ran it on my 4k TV again and think native is better there.

Napoleonic Jul 22, 2020 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demo (Post 1338207942)
I just tried playing DS on my monitor for the first time, 21:9 3440x1440, and have to admit DLSS looks far better than native on this display. Not just a little, but better by a country mile.

Really odd as I ran it on my 4k TV again and think native is better there.

Do your have your TV tech post processing effects applied? TV usually pre-configured like that.

SirBaron Jul 23, 2020 02:36 AM

DLSS Is great but really only useful for my OLED, 2560x1080 it's kinda pointless.

Not really in the market to buy a new monitor until they make a OLED with no burn in (I can dream) that is ultrawide and same size :lol:.

Or MicroLED starts to become dominant.

I really don't see much reason to upgrade as this monitor looks great, and is sharp enough, and I prefer playing on here than my OLED, beacuse I like to be close to the monitor.

demo Jul 23, 2020 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Napoleonic (Post 1338207976)
Do your have your TV tech post processing effects applied? TV usually pre-configured like that.

Samsung QLED set to gaming mode which supposedly removes post processing effects.

It is however at 4:2:2 12-bit HDR, compared to RGB 10-bit HDR on monitor. I wonder if anything is being lost or not translated well with chroma subsampling?

Trunks0 Jul 23, 2020 02:56 AM

Try flipping it over to 10-bit? Panels not likely 12-bit anyway and if it ends up looking better it will have been worth it for such an easy thing to change.

demo Jul 23, 2020 03:13 AM

Yeh, 10 and 12-bit look identical. I even set 4:4:4 8-bit (HDR off) just to check, and 4k native still looks better IMO. Really strange as on monitor it's night and day difference.

SIrPauly Jul 23, 2020 06:03 PM

Dlss at 8k:

https://www.tweaktown.com/articles/9...des/index.html

Trunks0 Jul 23, 2020 06:58 PM

So... could you layer Digital Super Resolution and DLSS?

demo Jul 23, 2020 09:57 PM

I tried this and it looks fantastic but I came across two issues, one I could resolve and the other I could not.

First problem was on a 4K TV, DSR uses 4096x2160 as base resolution meaning all DSR resolutions on offer don't scale into 3840x2160 nicely, and end up looking worse. Solution was to use CRU to delete all entries of 4096 x 2160. After that, DSR uses 3840x2160 as base and 7680x4320 (4xSSAA) and 5760x3240 (2xSSAA) become available, and wow do they look great and run well with DLSS. :drool:

The other issue though, is that I couldn't get DSR to run with 4:2:2 10 bit HDR. It keeps reverting to RGB 8-bit. In the end I decided I'd prefer to have HDR.

SIrPauly Jul 23, 2020 10:16 PM

It sure is fun to investigate.

the_sextein Jul 24, 2020 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demo (Post 1338208216)
I tried this and it looks fantastic but I came across two issues, one I could resolve and the other I could not.

First problem was on a 4K TV, DSR uses 4096x2160 as base resolution meaning all DSR resolutions on offer don't scale into 3840x2160 nicely, and end up looking worse. Solution was to use CRU to delete all entries of 4096 x 2160. After that, DSR uses 3840x2160 as base and 7680x4320 (4xSSAA) and 5760x3240 (2xSSAA) become available, and wow do they look great and run well with DLSS. :drool:

The other issue though, is that I couldn't get DSR to run with 4:2:2 10 bit HDR. It keeps reverting to RGB 8-bit. In the end I decided I'd prefer to have HDR.

Can you use DSR at 4-2-2 10bit without DLSS being enabled?

demo Jul 24, 2020 08:37 AM

Nope, when a DSR resolution is selected it defaults to RGB 8-bit. If I select 10 or 12 bit 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 the control panel wigs out and closes..

But, I've just been playing with 8-bit RGB HDR with DSR+DLSS and frankly it looks fantastic. I am now a DLSS convert, it's pretty awesome.

SIrPauly Jul 24, 2020 09:21 AM

If Nvidia can improve compatibility and content would also be awesome.

the_sextein Jul 24, 2020 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demo (Post 1338208275)
Nope, when a DSR resolution is selected it defaults to RGB 8-bit. If I select 10 or 12 bit 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 the control panel wigs out and closes..

But, I've just been playing with 8-bit RGB HDR with DSR+DLSS and frankly it looks fantastic. I am now a DLSS convert, it's pretty awesome.

Thanks demo, I don't have my 1080TI's in my system but when I was using HDR with Hitman 2018 I thought it looked good in 8bit RGB but it's probably a game by game basis on how important it is. I do think full RGB 8 bit looks better than 444 10bit when HDR is not enabled.

I was hoping to use DSR with DLSS to push 8k on my 4K panel. I was not sure I would be able to do it but now I know that I can so this information helps. Thanks for the info. I would assume running HDR in 8 bit would kill a lot of the color accuracy in some titles but it probably comes down to the game and weather or not the team pushed color to the limits for HDR or not.

I will probably use SLI to push 8K DSR on older games like stalker and GTA V. I will have to use DLSS to do it on newer titles. I figure DLSS might be needed for 4K on some titles like CyberPunk and it will probably come in handy at 4k on a regular basis once the card has been out for a while. I just hope Nvidia manages to support a lot of games with it.

Destroy Jul 24, 2020 12:14 PM

I feel like this DLSS thing will become a crutch and promote inefficient, sloppy coding.

the_sextein Jul 24, 2020 01:24 PM

You're probably right. That is why I always liked SLI. They still had to optimize to get the game running nicely on a single GPU for the mainstream and the second card allowed you to decimate the game without having to rely on hacks.

Still, if I can play at 4K native or 8K DLSS. I'll probably choose 8K DLSS unless there are serious visual issues that don't make up for the DSR upgrade. If I have to choose between 8K DSR and 4K HDR? I'll probably go 4K HDR unless I try it out and the 10bit color doesn't make much of a difference. I'll have to see on a case by case basis.

SIrPauly Jul 24, 2020 01:59 PM

If anything, Dlss type features may make it possible to enjoy Raytracing features or Path tracing abilities at higher resolutions more than without the feature.

The feature makes sense for Gpu limited titles like Final Fantasy or Monster Hunter.

The feature makes sense to get rid of temporal aliasing in modern engines with less limitations.

The keys may be quality and compatibility. Dlss 2.0 has made great strides here.

The other key is content. If Nvidia can get more developers to add it and possibly offer a more global setting enhancement would be welcomed, one may imagine. For example: Red Dead Redemption 2 is Gpu limited and offers Taa. Wouldn't it be fantastic to have a Dlss choice here? Probably, not going to happen but would be welcomed.

What an impressive crutch.

acroig Jul 24, 2020 03:23 PM

I agree with everything Pauly said.


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