Rage3D Discussion Area

Rage3D Discussion Area (http://www.rage3d.com/board/index.php)
-   Other Graphics Cards and 3D Technologies (http://www.rage3d.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=65)
-   -   Nvidia RTX DLSS/Ray Tracing Discussion (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=34049038)

Exposed Apr 6, 2020 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziklitschli (Post 1338186157)
I can frivolous one liners as much as I want thankfully, freedom babe.

I have 2,5 remote jobs and 2 kids small enough that I have to teach them myself atm (wife is a teacher but is teaching her classes remotly) and then keep them busy till evening so kindly stop the crazy nerd routine.

I have this crazy fix for Path of Exile but managed 20 minutes of it the last 3 days. I have a ****ing mustache. I'm not into a quote match (that, admitely, I shouldn't have started in the first place) with someone like you who will not shut up unless run to the ground (which I'm not saying would happen, to be clear), which I never enjoy in the end anyway, find it hard to be not nice to people.

Okay.....


Quote:

https://hothardware.com/reviews/inve...-5-and-control

"Because DLSS 2.0 applies itself to objects in motion as the scene moves, there's a little bit of temporal distortion (no, this is not Star Trek). That means that things which move and animate, like Jessie, give off a very faint halo. Try as we might, we couldn't capture it in screenshots in a way that was obvious because the halo is only apparent in motion."

It's funny how you repeat it ad nauseam yet everyone out there mentions sth and mother logic herself says artifacts will be there.It's not me having nothing, it's just mind bending that you require smb to show you that, like you didn't understand basic limitations in the world. Also if there's sth when scaling from 1080p, then it's probably going to be there upscaling from 2560, no?

Thanks for the link. That halo was also one of the artifacts Digital Foundry found in their overview of Control as well. This is non existent in other DLSS 2.0 games like Deliver Us The Moon and Youngblood. And you still can't give me a link with full DLSS 2.0 quality at 4k in your day long internet search, so none of these situations even apply.

How about running Control on your PC and turning on DLSS on/off? What are YOUR results/ impressions?

Will you ignore their overall findings as well?

Overall we're pretty stoked about NVIDIA's revised DLSS algorithm. For one, it's much easier for developers to implement because the AI routine is content-agnostic. Its availability in Unreal Engine 4 and relatively simple API means it's a simple way to take advantage of a neat hardware feature that can boost performance without negatively affecting image quality. We've looked at DLSS 2.0 in just a couple of games, but already we think that it's a tech worth watching.



Or their overwhelmingly blown away impressions with Mechwarrior 5? The fact that regardless of DLSS performance or quality mode, it improved the image over the base native quality?

Not to mention, 29fps native at 1440p vs 53fps with DLSS 2.0 quality mode on a GTX 2060, or 72fps with DLSS performance which still looks much better than native with any other AA combination despite the minor artificats of performance mode.

Quote:


No, only those that don't work.

Only if it doesn't fit your narrative.



Quote:

This quote that you warrior so much with kind of defeats itself - they are comparing to native with TAA. TAA ruins IQ so much that it's no wonder that sharpened AI upscaling can look better at places.

I was never talking about native as in with TAA. They are talking native in that particular game and Alex actually says "with TAA" all the time.
You're also defeating yourself with this post here. DLSS is an anti-aliasing method of its own, and most people will run some form of AA when playing. DLSS is essentially 64x Super Sampling (the bulk of the work already done via AI) without sacrificing the sharpness of native.

Native without AA is usually a jagged, shimmery mess of not having AA enabled at all. Which is how you play, right?



Quote:



Listen, ignoring that cringey quote, I don't really know what we are arguing about. I already told you that DLSS 2.0 is good for an upscale, this is like the best you can get from me about an upscaler, it's actualy also a huge improvement. Screenshots not enough for reconstructing techniques, that's common knowledge and they can have a supportive role at best. I even agree with you that for RTX 2060 users it's a good thing (except me heh) and that a standard user will be happy with it. It's just not a sth that should ever be a flagship feature and that's subjective, it's only your weird demands of admitting its unachievable perfection that fuels this bs. It's even general technique now, not per game, how can it be perfect.
Believe it or night, I do respect your opinion. But I disagree about your opinion on screenshots.

The original argument (from long ago) was that a 1440p image using any kind of upscaler could never match a native 4k image.

DLSS 2.0 has upset those folks who held on to this belief. So we've had numerous sites explore DLSS 2.0 quality mode at 4k and the response was overwhelmingly positive, stating DLSS 2.0 quality is nearly indistinguishable from native 4k and sometimes better, and WITH a performance boost.

So if an image was less than native 4k resolution, surely you can point it out right? That was the point of my screenshots. To tell the difference in fidelity between DLSS 2.0 quality (upscaled from 1440p) and native 4k. It is a 1:1 pixel comparison with all 3840x2160 pixels at your disposal. Motion has no relevance. Let me also be clear that I see no halo effect with Deliver Us the Moon or Youngblood with DLSS 2.0, and I game on a 65" 4k LG display. I don't have Control but I will get around to playing it soon.

How has DLSS testing gone on your end? Which games have you played with it on/off?

Exposed Apr 6, 2020 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demo (Post 1338186159)
Deliver us the Moon is fortunate in the sense it has a lot of plain geometry. In games with intricate geometry and many alpha/transparent textures (IE- foliage, grass, hair, fences, wire mesh etc), DLSS often shimmers in motion. I also notice some odd/blurry looking jaggies occasionally, that look like missed edges from the lower, pre-processed, resolution. They look really odd, like running non native res on an LCD screen - which I guess is what it's doing.

The sharpening artifacts are also a big issue for me, but I'm convinced Nvidia just added a sharpening filter when everyone complained how blurry DLSS was originally, and I bet this can easily be toned down (Digital Foundry alluded to this).

Just note, I've known Z-Man for about a decade and much like Sirpauly (and myself to a lesser extent), he is absolutely anal about AA quality. I think those two gentlemen know more about AA modes than the rest of the forum combined. They are the types of guys to use exotic mixed AA modes (IE- SGSSAA+trMSAA+CSAA plus texture LOD adjustment) that can only be used via Inspector and require correct compatibility bits. I trust Z-mans judgement, he is seeing what I'm seeing.

I suppose what they (and I) notice is that DLSS is very good for shader based AA, and a welcomed feature, but like all shader AA its real goal is performance and not quality. To that end it does very well, but it does not look anywhere near as clean, as sharp, or as shimmer free as 'real AA'. It doesn't seem to filter textures or shaders cleanly like SSAA either, instead just sharpening them (again, convinced there is simply a sharpening filter added). I'd like to know what happened to MFAA. I liked the idea of real MSAA with temporal jitter, for 4xMSAA quality at 2x performance hit etc. That seemed promising.
Shader AA scales extremely well with resolution - or to be more precise, pixel pitch and PPI. It looks horrid at lower PPI and pixel pitch, but does the job just fine with extreme PPI and pixel pitch. I don't think we're at the point where real AA can be discarded yet, though, as even at 4K 55" I notice jaggies just as bad as a 27" 1440p monitor (similar PPI). You know, a 60" 4k display has the same PPI as 30" 1080p. Meaning both need some serious filtering to eliminate jaggies and shimmering.

It would be pretty strange to see foliage, grass, hair, fences, etc.. on the moon wouldn't it?

Deliver Us The Moon doesn't use alot of transparencies, what it does have alot of though is alot of reflective surfaces and windows/glass. This is where ray tracing shines.

I didn't see any motion artifacts with Youngblood either. Have you? I can't remember if it had alot of transparencies, much like the moon game the outdoor levels had alot of reflective store windows, etc..

Is this even a problem with DLSS 2.0? You can see even DLSS performance mode in the Control reviews shows it handles transparencies like hair just fine, though performance mode has its own set of minor artifacts. But then you're comparing 29fps to 73 on an RTX 2060. Is that really a tough choice to make when you have a 2060, or a 2080Ti when the target resolution is 4k?


Quote:

EDIT: Another thing of note, is that while those comparison screenshots look great, they are compared to TAA/FXAA etc. It would be interesting to see against native with MSAA/SSAA, and without JPG compression. I have always found it hard to compare AA via screenshots. For example, 4xMSAA looks pretty good vs SSAA in screenshots, but in person the difference is night and day.

Why would you want that? I already stated that without DLSS, 4k performance with Deliver Us the Moon is ****. Roughly 30fps. Turning on DLSS quality mode jumps this back up to 60fps with no visual difference from native 4k, and sometimes better (see my last set of screenshots with the panel).



I would imagine turning on SSAA instead of in game would tank performance to 15fps or lower.



Lastly, DLSS is essentially a super sampling method in itself. The AI is trained at extremely high resolution (64x SS) as pointed out in Pauli's link. You're basically getting the effect of "free SSAA", albeit done from a lower constructor resolution of 1440p but if the goal is to output to native 4k and there is an improvement, DLSS has done its job has it not? If it hasn't, do you see any indication in my screenshots where its lower resolution than native?

demo Apr 6, 2020 09:42 AM

I guess another way of saying it is that DLSS is the fall back option, not the first choice for quality, nor does it offer additional IQ enhancements on top of games. It's fantastic for performance, but the trade off is IQ that falls short of native res with shader AA.

In my mind, by its very nature, using DLSS means 'lower IQ' by default.

Exposed Apr 6, 2020 09:56 AM

That is true, if you're already getting 60fps in a game for example, there is zero incentive to turn on DLSS. The goal of DLSS is give you playable framerates at a resolution you would normally struggle in while maintaining native fidelity.

Metro Exodus with Ray Tracing results in 30fps or less at 4k. Ray tracing does look good in this game, especially in the snowy levels. Turning on DLSS (1.0) gave back performance while maintaining roughly 90% IQ of native. In other words, it's a better option than native 1440p and is equivalent to 1800 or 1900p. You could also use a 3rd party tool to drop native resolution down to 1800p and a sharpening filter. I preferred the simplicity of just turning on DLSS. This was pretty much the only game where DLSS 1.0 actually shined after the last DLSS update.



Wolfenstein youngblood -- performance actually isn't that bad with native 4k and ray tracing on. There are dips however where gameplay can be choppy. Ray tracing looks good in this game, much like reflections in Battlefield 5. If I were to play this game fully (I won't because this game sucks), I'd turn on DLSS quality mode to maintain 60fps locked at 4k.


Deliver Us the Moon -- a ray tracing showcase. Reflections everywhere, not just simple reflections either. Global illumination on lunar surface looks great. Not playable at all at 4k native with Ray Tracing, horrendous performance. Turning on DLSS quality brings back performance up to 60fps, though I did notice in some areas performance will still dip. One of the few games where ray tracing is used for almost everything, not just reflections. There isn't a visual difference between native and DLSS 4k and no one else has been able to spot a difference either (in fact, DLSS 2.0 quality mode shows improvement over native in many areas), probably the best showcase for DLSS 2.0 so far.

jimjobob Apr 6, 2020 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186197)

I didn't see any motion artifacts with Youngblood either. Have you? I can't remember if it had alot of transparencies, much like the moon game the outdoor levels had alot of reflective store windows, etc..

This was the thing that actually stood out as being better to me with DLSS in Youngblood. The floor Shimmered a lot less during movement and so did the vents and such on the walls.

acroig Apr 6, 2020 10:27 AM

I can't wait until we start arguing about the 3080..... :(

Exposed Apr 6, 2020 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjobob (Post 1338186214)
This was the thing that actually stood out as being better to me with DLSS in Youngblood. The floor Shimmered a lot less during movement and so did the vents and such on the walls.

Was that with DLSS on or off? Unfortunately I quit the game after getting frustrated with the cheesy boss battles and incompetent AI companion.


Quote:

Originally Posted by acroig (Post 1338186217)
I can't wait until we start arguing about the 3080..... :(


3080ti or bust. :p

jimjobob Apr 6, 2020 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186218)
Was that with DLSS on or off? Unfortunately I quit the game after getting frustrated with the cheesy boss battles and incompetent AI companion.

That was with it on. I originally looked to turn it off because I have not been a fan of DLSS and I did not know about 2.0. I had a brain fart and missed half the options so I thought it was locked on which I complained about in the Youngblood thread because I knew from past experience that things were better with it set to off. I eventually realized my mistake and found the option to disable it. When I did so and returned to game, the IQ seemed to get worse especially the shimmering. I first off started playing around with AA to try and improve it and it was still worse so I turned it back on and noticed immediate improvement. I then turned it on and off repeatedly because I could not believe that it looked better with DLSS than w/o. Eventually I just left it on and then later learned about 2.0.

acroig Apr 6, 2020 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186218)
3080ti or bust. :p

For us yes but at least we can argue about something else, this is getting stale. ;)

SIrPauly Apr 6, 2020 01:18 PM

Here is another in-depth analysis of Youngblood:

https://youtu.be/N8M8ygA9yWc

Ziklitschli Apr 6, 2020 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186194)
Okay.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186194)
And you still can't give me a link with full DLSS 2.0 quality at 4k in your day long internet search, so none of these situations even apply.

See this is a reason for the job&kids quote, I'm not crying here (especialy that keeping kids busy with boardgames, football and PS4 couch coop is fun - though still necessary) but just trying to comunicate how low on importance this thing is for me. It's not that I can't, I'm not trying, this was the only site I checked, also read Techspot conclusion I think and some bits from other sites that show up in the search. I didn't even watch the entire DF video, I put it on it because they pop up in proposed, skipped to a few important bits, seen enough. I'm completly uninterested in the game and using the tech and any reading/ searching/ discussing it feels like work, and I'd rather do the garden or attic during the lockdown, and those are not my favourite activities heh. You're going to dismiss it anyway so whatever.

I posted 2 basic things and you're just making it into this epic. I'm out, this is my opinion, do whatever you want with it. Little of the things I'm actualy saying cross over anyway, I'm not fitting things into narrative, dismissing the conclusions etc. I just read people impressed with the improvement and making conclusions about that particular game and scenario, not some general truths about DLSS trumping native in games. Not to mention this better than native thing started straight as nVidia marketing quote afaik.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186194)
You're also defeating yourself with this post here. DLSS is an anti-aliasing method of its own, and most people will run some form of AA when playing. DLSS is essentially 64x Super Sampling (the bulk of the work already done via AI) without sacrificing the sharpness of native.

Native without AA is usually a jagged, shimmery mess of not having AA enabled at all. Which is how you play, right?

We're not on the same page here, and getting on one seems like a walk through fire. It is not better than native but better (at some things) than native ruined by TAA, that the leading AA method atm is so flawed doesn't make the other one great, you're just taking me stating the most obvious thing and somehow make it into another stupid challenge. No this is not how I play, TAA native is not how I play either. I made a mistake of buying a 2060 for a 24" 2560 monitor, seemed ok enough performance wise to get through this ridiculously priced gen without crying. What I've seen with TAA + native in games was so bad that I switched the monitor immediately for 23" 1080p one (a pixel pitch a bit large for my taste btw heh), to play games with DSR. Planned to switch GPUs asap but decided to wait for 3xxx and am kind of happy with the decision, seeing how little of AAA games I play anyway.

The minimum to play for me is either native res 4xmsaa + x4 trssaa, or DSR x4 no gauss +x2/x2 respectively. If nothing else is avilable, I use x4 DSR so 2x2 SS with SMAA or TAA as a last resort, depending on the game. I'm not touching TAA native, sharpened or not not sure which is worse heh and ss is the only sharpen method I accept for it. Most games from this gen I end up with 45 - 60 fps ie Dark Souls 3, Far Crys, Prey, ArmA 3, Hitman etc but I will withstand 35+ or even 30 locked if I have to, refuse to drop settings except some pp crap so I'm kind of ****ed in general heh. None of the latest and greatest appeals to me (even Metro) and it's enough to play Wargame series, TW series, BMS, M&B, Stalkers etc etc and basically the whole history of PC gaming with proper IQ and performance.

So to play Control, I'd either go for DSR 4k to 1080p with FXAA/ TAA whatever is there and 30fps and if unachievable, wait or upgrade depending on the level of fix towards it. DLSS is out of a question obviously, never say never though as everyone can be met with a tragedy of a new game and an old PC.

And yes its x64 supersampling, better than native and flawless. You win.

Megaman Apr 6, 2020 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acroig (Post 1338186217)
I can't wait until we start arguing about the 3080..... :(

DLSS 3.0 will keep the flames burning

bill dennison Apr 6, 2020 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megaman (Post 1338186336)
DLSS 3.0 will keep the flames burning

wait till the AMD navi 2x and xbox series x & ps5 get out with AMD's & MS$ type of RT and whatever they call their version of DLSS hit


then the pitchforks and torches will really come out :lol:

acroig Apr 6, 2020 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megaman (Post 1338186336)
DLSS 3.0 will keep the flames burning

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill dennison (Post 1338186342)
wait till the AMD navi 2x and xbox series x & ps5 get out with AMD's & MS$ type of RT and whatever they call their version of DLSS hit


then the pitchforks and torches will really come out :lol:

Fun times, can't wait.

Ziklitschli Apr 6, 2020 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destroy (Post 1338186178)

Also, the mandatory TAA in Doom Eternal. Not even a good choice of AA tbh, I respect its pure stabilising power but can't stand the smear. I never had a problem accepting some AA blur for the cause but this is hard.

NWR_Midnight Apr 6, 2020 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill dennison (Post 1338186342)
wait till the AMD navi 2x and xbox series x & ps5 get out with AMD's & MS$ type of RT and whatever they call their version of DLSS hit


then the pitchforks and torches will really come out :lol:

I'll just ask Exposed what my opinion is, as that is the only opinion he will accept :hmm: :lol:

Megaman Apr 6, 2020 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWR_Midnight (Post 1338186349)
I'll just ask Exposed what my opinion is, as that is the only opinion he will accept :hmm: :lol:

:lol:

Seyiji Apr 6, 2020 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megaman (Post 1338186352)
:lol:

Don't encourage him I don't want Exposed to fly in here dick first and break it off in his ass :runaway:

Megaman Apr 6, 2020 09:16 PM

Itís not my ass so I donít care.

Higgy10 Apr 7, 2020 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demo (Post 1338186192)
Actually yes ^ I'm pretty annoyed with how TAA is the new standard and most games don't offer MSAA or SSAA at all anymore. At least it's better than FXAA I suppose (Ughhh).

I understand the possible issues with MSAA, but at least offer SSAA (thankfully some games natively support downscaling).
But yeh, I miss the old days when mixed AA modes were the height of IQ enhancements, allowing users to go above and beyond what the game offered or devs intended. It's the main reason I ran SLI/CFX all those years. Not just for the AA quality itself, but the impact those modes also had on textures, shaders, motion clarity, etc.
Now it just seems you set your game to max, enable TAA, and that's it. Doesn't matter if you upgrade hardware, the games graphics cannot be enhanced any further. Hell, we're lucky if the game has a sharpening filter slider to de-blur the shader AA... haha progress.

Now get off my lawn.

ya seriously tho, how hard would it be implement proper ssaa support(rg or sgssaa) Most know its a demanding option but would be nice to have available. Like you said it offers alot more than just aa quality itself. To many tradeoffs with these modern aa modes

SIrPauly Apr 7, 2020 05:18 AM

I don't mind trade-offs if there are performance benefits. What bothers me a bit or a constructive nit-pick - Nvidia also marketed Dlss×2, gold standard, ground truth image quality - so, for someone like me, did go bonkers for anticipation but was disappointed by early iterations. Surly, hope Dlss continues to mature to garner more traction and to bring Dlss×2 as an option.

Exposed Apr 7, 2020 08:14 AM

I just flung in here dick first and broke my ass.

Now who wants to talk more about DLSS? :bleh:

acroig Apr 7, 2020 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186402)
I just flung in here dick first and broke my ass.

Now who wants to talk more about DLSS? :bleh:

:lol: , it's OK bud, I think point's been made. We don't have to justify anymore. :D

Seyiji Apr 7, 2020 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186402)
I just flung in here dick first and broke my ass.

Now who wants to talk more about DLSS? :bleh:

Don't contain it tis cool.

Exposed Apr 7, 2020 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acroig (Post 1338186407)
:lol: , it's OK bud, I think point's been made. We don't have to justify anymore. :D

If you insist, let us resume enjoying our shiny 2080Ti's :lol:

Also

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seyiji (Post 1338099177)
Dicks are nice >:3



acroig Apr 7, 2020 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186418)
If you insist, let us resume enjoying our shiny 2080Ti's :lol:

One point I will concede is that the list of titles with RTX and or DLSS is woefully small. 18 months after launch I would have hoped for much more but I assume dev are waiting for a bigger base of RTX enabled cards before they take the plunge.

Exposed Apr 7, 2020 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acroig (Post 1338186421)
One point I will concede is that the list of titles with RTX and or DLSS is woefully small. 18 months after launch I would have hoped for much more but I assume dev are waiting for a bigger base of RTX enabled cards before they take the plunge.

RTX support has to start somewhere, but it's growing. But like the Geforce DDR, you didn't buy it for it's initial hardware T&L support did you?

Let us remind ourselves why we bought a 2080Ti by loading up Red Dead Redemption 2 and playing at non console peasant settings. :lol:

acroig Apr 7, 2020 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186425)
RTX support has to start somewhere, but it's growing. But like the Geforce DDR, you didn't buy it for it's initial hardware T&L support did you?

Let us remind ourselves why we bought a 2080Ti by loading up Red Dead Redemption 2 and playing at non console peasant settings. :lol:

Indeed, maxed out at 45 fps.... :(

Why is Vulkan support in this title such crap?

bill dennison Apr 7, 2020 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186425)
RTX support has to start somewhere, but it's growing. But like the Geforce DDR, you didn't buy it for it's initial hardware T&L support did you?

Let us remind ourselves why we bought a 2080Ti by loading up Red Dead Redemption 2 and playing at non console peasant settings. :lol:

not really

how many new 2020 nv rtx games ?

or are the devs waiting on ps5 xbox series x and AMD ?

all we have seen is old last years games fixed

.........

and i don't like westerns

if i want that i will go ......... outside :eek:

........


NWR_Midnight Apr 7, 2020 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megaman (Post 1338186354)
It’s not my ass so I don’t care.

:lol:


Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186402)
I just flung in here dick first and broke my ass.

Now who wants to talk more about DLSS? :bleh:

:lol:


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:50 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All trademarks used are properties of their respective owners. Copyright ©1998-2011 Rage3D.com