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-   -   Nvidia RTX DLSS/Ray Tracing Discussion (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=34049038)

Exposed Mar 10, 2020 08:31 PM

That's a 50% lucky guess :lol:

OverclockN' Mar 10, 2020 11:33 PM

Looks to me like

4k
DLSS
DLSS
4K

The washed out DLSS image is easy to pick out. I could be wrong, and it's nice they are close enough you have inspect it like that. But it seems the DLSS image is too saturated, like someone has the gamma too high.

Cream Mar 11, 2020 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338180515)
That's a 50% lucky guess :lol:

:)

I guess the point is there is very little difference, which is good.

Exposed Mar 15, 2020 05:38 PM

The few that replied are partially correct, but won't reveal just yet, this is too fun. It's very different when you don't know which, whether consciously or subconsciously people will tend to scrape up flaws (which may or may not actually exist) to stand by a belief that one image should always be inferior to another. I almost thought about labeling them from the getgo, except calling the 4k image the DLSS one and the DLSS image the 4k one and sit back and read the comments and then reveal after everyone said their fill. :lol:

But, one thing that needs to be realized though in these screenshots is you're seeing effects and performance not possible on a 1080Ti at 4k. You're not gonna get those ray traced store front window reflections in Youngblood for example. Or consistent performance for constant 60fps gameplay unless you start turning down settings. So the entire point of DLSS is to give cards that have the ability to gain back that performance, at either negligible or equivalent IQ, with stuff like ray tracing enabled. Deliver us the moon uses a TON of ray traced effects including global illumination (noticeable on the lunar surface) and reflections (better than Battlefield 5 reflections) throughout the outpost. Performance with these on at 4k is crushing. DLSS is not meant replace native 4k, but give you an option to run it. Keep that in mind when comparing DLSS to native, especially when you don't have the hardware to run these games at those settings and resolutions in the first place.

That being said, here's another set of screenshots from Deliver Us the Moon:




OverclockN' Mar 15, 2020 08:26 PM

If a few of us were wrong already, I think the point was proven. We don't need to keep guessing. :p

Kain Mar 17, 2020 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338181689)
The few that replied are partially correct, but won't reveal just yet, this is too fun. It's very different when you don't know which, whether consciously or subconsciously people will tend to scrape up flaws (which may or may not actually exist) to stand by a belief that one image should always be inferior to another. I almost thought about labeling them from the getgo, except calling the 4k image the DLSS one and the DLSS image the 4k one and sit back and read the comments and then reveal after everyone said their fill. :lol:

But, one thing that needs to be realized though in these screenshots is you're seeing effects and performance not possible on a 1080Ti at 4k. You're not gonna get those ray traced store front window reflections in Youngblood for example. Or consistent performance for constant 60fps gameplay unless you start turning down settings. So the entire point of DLSS is to give cards that have the ability to gain back that performance, at either negligible or equivalent IQ, with stuff like ray tracing enabled. Deliver us the moon uses a TON of ray traced effects including global illumination (noticeable on the lunar surface) and reflections (better than Battlefield 5 reflections) throughout the outpost. Performance with these on at 4k is crushing. DLSS is not meant replace native 4k, but give you an option to run it. Keep that in mind when comparing DLSS to native, especially when you don't have the hardware to run these games at those settings and resolutions in the first place.

That being said, here's another set of screenshots from Deliver Us the Moon:




I think the list of names on the electronic panel(?) next the door under "Sleep Quarters" gives this one away.

Exposed Mar 17, 2020 05:16 PM

I noticed that too. I had to double check to make sure I had the right settings. Which one do you think that one is?

Kain Mar 17, 2020 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338182143)
I noticed that too. I had to double check to make sure I had the right settings. Which one do you think that one is?

Guessing that the second screenshot is DLSS.

Exposed Mar 17, 2020 05:51 PM

That one is native, the top one is dlss. I went back in game to double check. Native 4k with TAA high doesn't show the panel names as clearly as DLSS 4k. You get some of the clarity back with native 4k no AA but then it's a jagged, shimmery eyesore, and the names still aren't as crisp/readable as the DLSS shot. This is probably similar to the radar monitor in youngblood, one of those cases where DLSS gives better than native output. I would say this is a good example of AI doing its job well, not simply a sharpening filter.

Kain Mar 17, 2020 06:34 PM

Interesting. :up:

Cream Mar 17, 2020 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338182146)
That one is native, the top one is dlss. I went back in game to double check. Native 4k with TAA high doesn't show the panel names as clearly as DLSS 4k. You get some of the clarity back with native 4k no AA but then it's a jagged, shimmery eyesore, and the names still aren't as crisp/readable as the DLSS shot. This is probably similar to the radar monitor in youngblood, one of those cases where DLSS gives better than native output. I would say this is a good example of AI doing its job well, not simply a sharpening filter.

WOW...…….

bill dennison Mar 18, 2020 12:32 AM

Quote:

Vulkan API Now Supports Ray Tracing, Built Upon NVIDIA’s RTX – Industry’s First Open, Cross-Vendor & Cross-Platform Ray Tracing Standard
Quote:

NVIDIA - “NVIDIA ships beta drivers today with support for the provisional standardized ray tracing functionality in Vulkan,” said Morgan McGuire, research director at NVIDIA. “Bringing accelerated ray tracing to the Vulkan cross-platform, open standard API is another significant step towards enabling the highest quality of visual realism for real-time games and applications everywhere.”

AMD - "Standardizing ray tracing in Vulkan is an important step towards making ray tracing available across a wide range of devices, as well as enabling developers to use this technology to its full advantage. AMD intends to provide support for all of the major features in this extension, including ray shading, ray queries, and CPU acceleration structure management. We will be working with developers to ensure great performance from our Vulkan Ray Tracing implementation; these efforts will help us to provide end-users with even more visually stunning graphics on AMD Radeon™ GPUs,” said Andrej Zdravkovic, senior vice president, software development, AMD.
:cool:
https://wccftech.com/khronos-group-v...vidia-rtx-dna/

acroig Mar 18, 2020 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill dennison (Post 1338182180)

At some point Doom will get it.

zzz1 Mar 18, 2020 11:35 AM

1 DLSS
2 4k
3 4k
4 DLSS
:)

acroig Mar 18, 2020 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zzz1 (Post 1338182247)
1 DLSS
2 4k
3 4k
4 DLSS
:)

Dude you must be the ultimate lurker here! 16 posts in 14 years? :eek:

Exposed Mar 18, 2020 11:57 AM

My guess it's a sock account (someone's alt). :lol:

zzz1 Mar 20, 2020 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acroig (Post 1338182251)
Dude you must be the ultimate lurker here! 16 posts in 14 years? :eek:

I guess you could say that :lol: I visit these forums from time to time, usually the PC gaming sub, to see which games would be fun to play. Unfortunately, I usually don't have time to actually play them, so I don't have much to say about them :cry: :lol:

@Exposed Actually, it's my main and the only account here. :p

acroig Mar 20, 2020 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zzz1 (Post 1338182709)
I guess you could say that :lol: I visit these forums from time to time, usually the PC gaming sub, to see which games would be fun to play. Unfortunately, I usually don't have time to actually play them, so I don't have much to say about them :cry: :lol:

@Exposed Actually, it's my main and the only account here. :p

Well join us more often then! :)

Cynicalking Mar 23, 2020 10:37 PM

Mechwarrior 5 Mercenaries got DLSS 2.0 today. Control will get updated on March 26, when the first expansion launches.

Seyiji Mar 24, 2020 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynicalking (Post 1338183670)
Mechwarrior 5 Mercenaries got DLSS 2.0 today. Control will get updated on March 26, when the first expansion launches.

Nice to see the old broke bitch method is getting replaced :up:

Exposed Mar 24, 2020 09:08 AM

Too bad Mechwarrior 5 is a shitty game, like Youngblood.

Seyiji Mar 24, 2020 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338183737)
Too bad Mechwarrior 5 is a shitty game, like Youngblood.

Any hole is a goal?

Cynicalking Mar 25, 2020 10:43 AM

Control's patch is up. Will post impressions later, takes a while to download with my **** internet.

acroig Mar 25, 2020 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynicalking (Post 1338183991)
Control's patch is up. Will post impressions later, takes a while to download with my **** internet.

Cool, I'll do as well, thanks.

Exposed Mar 25, 2020 11:07 AM

Nobody has mechwarrior 5?

acroig Mar 25, 2020 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338183998)
Nobody has mechwarrior 5?

I don't. Deliver Us The Moon looks awesome.

Jaillum Malord Mar 26, 2020 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynicalking (Post 1338183991)
Control's patch is up. Will post impressions later, takes a while to download with my **** internet.

The updated DLSS is very impressive on 1080p upscaled to 4K....eye poppingly so!

Higgy10 Mar 26, 2020 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338183998)
Nobody has mechwarrior 5?

ya but like you said, the game sucks

Exposed Mar 26, 2020 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Higgy10 (Post 1338184187)
ya but like you said, the game sucks

Damn. I might get it when it's super cheap or if it goes on xbox game pass.

Destroy Mar 26, 2020 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338183998)
Nobody has mechwarrior 5?

Nah. Waiting for it to be on Steam and cheap; its not as good as it should of been.

Ziklitschli Apr 5, 2020 03:05 PM

The screenshot challenge is nonsense. Most upscaling techniques can hold much better on stills than in motion and DLSS 2.0 is good enough to hold for sure. The screenshots also seem low on transparencies and fine detail (haven't seen all though just this page), even FXAA holds on fat geometry when still.

Not to mention, @Exposed, that it's hard to take your championing of DLSS 2.0 seriously when even with pre 2.0 version, you claimed that it's so good, 90% (or even 90 sth) of native res etc etc. Now, in the Digital Foundry Control DLSS 2.0 video, they show the older DLSS breaking left and right and how the new one is better 1080p to 4k than the old one 2560 to 4k.

Anyway, I have nothing against it existing, just the way it's promoted as a feature. Just like that crap hiding details on edge of the screen etc because you don't look there that much. Soon console games will look like a light LSD trip, morphing and switching and going in and out of focus (some already do), it's all "lower your IQ" options and not features worth to put on a box. NVIDIA 1280x720, NEW FEATURE TO KEEP YOUR 60! DLSS is good now for an upscaling tech but you need native res for a truely pristine image and that's not going to change.

Exposed Apr 5, 2020 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziklitschli (Post 1338186059)
The screenshot challenge is nonsense. Most upscaling techniques can hold much better on stills than in motion and DLSS 2.0 is good enough to hold for sure. The screenshots also seem low on transparencies and fine detail (haven't seen all though just this page), even FXAA holds on fat geometry when still.

You know what else is nonsense? Coming in here making blanket claims without even taking the time to actually do some research. Because if you had, you'd see there were not one, but three different sources with video showing just how indistinguishable DLSS 2.0 is from native 4k. Not to mention, using zoom magnifications from 200 to 800%. So you didn't have to use my screenshots, the data is out there for itself.

Sorry, but my screenshots are 100% untouched in full 3840x2160. You seem to be making excuses without even looking at them, or looking at them and frustrated you can't tell the difference because you are one of those people that look for reasons to **** on a specific brand feature? It would be very clear which screenshot would be FXAA, in fact I'll include them in my next set of screenshots to show just how foolish your statement was.

Quote:

Not to mention, @Exposed, that it's hard to take your championing of DLSS 2.0 seriously when even with pre 2.0 version, you claimed that it's so good, 90% (or even 90 sth) of native res etc etc. Now, in the Digital Foundry Control DLSS 2.0 video, they show the older DLSS breaking left and right and how the new one is better 1080p to 4k than the old one 2560 to 4k.
I've always said DLSS 1.0 was 90% as good as native 4k in Metro Exodus. This was after their updated DLSS patch. I've never said the same about any other game. Now, you wanna go back and reread those posts (and those screenshots)?

Also, the new Digital Foundry video just proves my point even further (and yours even less). They basically state with DLSS 2.0 Performance mode (1080p upscaled to 4k), there's only minor differences from Native 4k. With 1440p as the base reconstructor, it's damn near indistinguishable, and they have video and screenshots that shows this.

So thanks for bringing that new video up proving my point further. Heck you don;'t even have to take theirs, or my word for it, just take a look at the comments in the PC gaming section of this forum on Control. Others saying it looks as good and even better than native, surely they must have eye issues?

Quote:

Anyway, I have nothing against it existing, just the way it's promoted as a feature. Just like that crap hiding details on edge of the screen etc because you don't look there that much. Soon console games will look like a light LSD trip, morphing and switching and going in and out of focus (some already do), it's all "lower your IQ" options and not features worth to put on a box. NVIDIA 1280x720, NEW FEATURE TO KEEP YOUR 60! DLSS is good now for an upscaling tech but you need native res for a truely pristine image and that's not going to change.
Of course nothing would truly beat native resolution. But what happens when native 4k gives **** performance? You would rather play at 4k 25-30 fps than DLSS 2.0 which would give indistinguishable (and sometimes better) quality at 60 fps?

bill dennison Apr 5, 2020 04:32 PM

:lol:

DLSS 1.0 was 70% complete and utter garbage at 4k .

it made RT faster and that was it's only use, IQ was crap



i have looked at DSLL 2.0 A bit so far and it is better at 4k but it is not like 100% like 4k .


I will only use DSLL if I can not get a game to run any other way

...........


with the amount of games with RT and the problems with DLSS

my 2080 ti strix is a great 4k card, but nvidia's whole RTX is a fail at 18 months .

Exposed Apr 5, 2020 05:28 PM

Which is why you played Metro Exodus without ray tracing/DLSS at native 4k, right? :lol:

Despite what you say Bill, you still find reasons to give money to Nvidia somehow. :lol:


Digital Foundry also has their newest video on the recent DLSS 2.0 patch for Control, though it focuses more on the performance mode rather than quality mode.


Ziklitschli Apr 5, 2020 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186061)
You know what else is nonsense? Coming in here making blanket claims without even taking the time to actually do some research. Because if you had, you'd see there were not one, but three different sources with video showing just how indistinguishable DLSS 2.0 is from native 4k. Not to mention, using zoom magnifications from 200 to 800%. So you didn't have to use my screenshots, the data is out there for itself.

That claims were about the challenge itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186061)
Sorry, but my screenshots are 100% untouched in full 3840x2160. You seem to be making excuses without even looking at them, or looking at them and frustrated you can't tell the difference because you are one of those people that look for reasons to **** on a specific brand feature? It would be very clear which screenshot would be FXAA, in fact I'll include them in my next set of screenshots to show just how foolish your statement was.

Another sentence you didn't understand. Calm down, what I meant is that upscale artifacts are visible on some things more than the others and I saw a lot of geometry but little transparencies. Didn't say that your screens are touched at all, said that even fxaa would look good on those pics, read again.

On the other hand, I can bet that you didn't even turn off TAA or variants of it for the screenshots, when it is known to hide upscale artifacts.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186061)
I've always said DLSS 1.0 was 90% as good as native 4k in Metro Exodus. This was after their updated DLSS patch. I've never said the same about any other game. Now, you wanna go back and reread those posts (and those screenshots)?

Ok then and no, don't care. Still, a pre 2.0 DLSS so not that far off.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186061)
Also, the new Digital Foundry video just proves my point even further (and yours even less). They basically state with DLSS 2.0 Performance mode (1080p upscaled to 4k), there's only minor differences from Native 4k. With 1440p as the base reconstructor, it's damn near indistinguishable, and they have video and screenshots that shows this.

It's not indistinguishable. I respect Digital Foundry but they tend to go for positivity wherever possible, and are fans of dynamic resolution solutions and push those as a feature, where I consider it total crap. Not to mention, I already said DLSS is good for an upscale, not sure what you're on about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186061)
thanks for bringing that new video up proving my point further. Heck you don;'t even have to take theirs, or my word for it, just take a look at the comments in the PC gaming section of this forum on Control. Others saying it looks as good and even better than native, surely they must have eye issues?

My post wasn't as much about DLSS as it was about your challenge.

I don't care for people claiming it looks better than native.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186061)
Of course nothing would truly beat native resolution. But what happens when native 4k gives **** performance? You would rather play at 4k 25-30 fps than DLSS 2.0 which would give indistinguishable (and sometimes better) quality at 60 fps?

I'd go for worse framerate to play in native res every time, obviously. Don't have any problem with you choosing otherwise, just with all your arrogant yet uninformed pushing of it.

Exposed Apr 5, 2020 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziklitschli (Post 1338186081)
That claims were about the challenge itself.

You said stills don't show upscaling artifacts. In other words, motion artifacts? So what sources do you have that discusses DLSS motion artifacts? Seems to be non existent in the three outside sources previously mentioned who have done video comparisons. Or are you simply drumming up artifact arguments without bothering to check?


Quote:


Another sentence you didn't unerstand. Calm down, what I meant it's that upscale artifacts are visible on some things more than the other and I saw a lot of geometry but little transparencies. Didn't say that your screens are touched at all, said that even fxaa would look good on those pics, read again.

Again, making assumptions without checking? Can you show me a single review from the last 15 years that shows FXAA looking close to it's original native screenshot? Last I checked FXAA is also a blur fest and DLSS 2.0 has shown it does not blur compared to the native image (unlike DLSS 1.0 which did) while retaining it's upscaling algorithm.

Quote:


On the other hand, I can bet that you didn't even turn off TAA or variants of it for the screenshots, when it is known to hide upscale artifacts.

A clear example here of not understanding the technology. You can't turn "on" TAA or any other AA method when DLSS is running. DLSS IS the anti-aliasing method. All of your criticisms so far are based on wrong assumptions.

Quote:


Ok then and no, don't care. Still, a pre 2.0 DLSS so not that far off.
You cared enough to bring it up.

What's funny is that every major tech outlet that has done an overview on DLSS 2.0 are all in agreement, so you can completely ignore everything I state. The dissidence seems to be coming from people who for some reason cannot accept or make a partial judgement for whatever reason (though it's clear why for some people).

You look at this thread and who has provided all the videos, sources, screenshots, etc...? What has the "sour grapes" provided? Blanket statements with nothing to back it up.


Quote:


It's not indistinguishable. I respect Digital Foundry but they tend to go for positivity wherever possible, and are fans of dynamic resolution solutions and push those as a feature, where I consider it total crap. Not to mention, I already said DLSS is good for an upscale, not sure what you're on about.


You were the one that brought them up to show the differences between the "old" DLSS and the "new". You cannot accept their stance on one and disregard the other, the other being DLSS 2.0 quality is nearly indistinguishable and sometimes better than native (which let me say again, was also the finding of other tech sites like Hardware Unboxed). Also, they're fans of dynamic resolutions on consoles. On PC they're really in depth in their overviews and get into technical details most other sites don't. Of course, that means if you use them as a source, better be prepared to accept their findings as a whole, not pick and choose.




Quote:



My post wasn't as much about DLSS as it was about your challenge.

I don't care for people claiming it looks better than native.
In other words, you have a problem accepting that as a reality(or even just a possibility) despite that being the findings from other tech sites.



So you tell me, which one is native and which one is DLSS? Shouldn't be that hard, it's a pixel to pixel comparison. Where are these upscaling artifacts? Please point them out.,





Quote:



I'd go for worse framerate to play in native res every time, obviously. Don't have any problem with you choosing otherwise, just with all your arrogant yet uninformed pushing of it.
Ah, so this a "I hate that you're right" kind of debate? Is that why you can offer nothing of substance? Can you at least provide some form of counter evidence to what has been posted? Artifacts, etc..?



If you own a Turing then you are free to choose to play in whatever settings you want, with or without DLSS/RTX etc...

SIrPauly Apr 5, 2020 06:03 PM

If I had any say, I would be promoting Dlss 2.0 strongly. To receive that kind of performance boost for 4k, with impressive fidelity is almost magical and too good to be true. Great feature for flexibility.

SIrPauly Apr 5, 2020 06:17 PM

It also helps raytracing and brings much more value to the Rtx family even the Rtx 2060.

Exposed Apr 5, 2020 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIrPauly (Post 1338186085)
If I had any say, I would be promoting Dlss 2.0 strongly. To receive that kind of performance boost for 4k, with impressive fidelity is almost magical and too good to be true. Great feature for flexibility.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...-zero-analysis

"There are a couple of interesting effects delivered by DLSS. On inner surfaces, textures appear to deliver more detail - sometimes even more than native resolution (and to be fair, sometimes less, though you need extreme magnification side-by-side shots to tell). It's not just a factor of contrast adjustment or sharpening either. On the rock wall ahead of Jesse in the very first playable scene in Control, single pixel detail on reflective elements of the rock wall shine with DLSS when they don't with native rendering. Remember that DLSS is a replacement for the temporal anti-aliasing found in many games - and TAA does tend to add some level of blur that DLSS does not."



It's not magic, it's simply evolution of graphics. Why would anyone hate on this is beyond belief. If you get a massive performance boost while retaining quality, why wouldn't that be a good option to have? Especially when 4k performance is suffering and not everyone can afford a 2080ti? If anything this video shows that RTX 2060 owners can get near 4k image quality with DLSS Performance mode without having to shell out bucks for a more expensive card.

bill dennison Apr 5, 2020 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exposed (Post 1338186078)
Which is why you played Metro Exodus without ray tracing/DLSS at native 4k, right? :lol:

Despite what you say Bill, you still find reasons to give money to Nvidia somehow. :lol:


Digital Foundry also has their newest video on the recent DLSS 2.0 patch for Control, though it focuses more on the performance mode rather than quality mode.


after playing with it i did turn it off on Metro Exodus when it came out and i played

looking at for it keep getting me killed :bleh:


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