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Funny how people read into things differently.

Vulkan is a API that was long overdue, and, since it is open to all, this makes it easier to program on for a variety of open systems.

However, the way things seems to be going these days is, because most of the games are console ports, at this time, it is just easier to have code that works on the XB1 & PCs (which is DX 12).
The flip side of that is, PS4 doesn't use DX12, and, from what I have been hearing is they want Vulkan, and AMD & others are helping them achieve that goal.
This translates to, PS4 games ports will most likely use Vulkan, and XB1 game ports will most likely use DX12.

Valve is pushing people toward Vulkan as well, since, not only can it work on windows, but linux as well, and user of Windows 7 & 8 do NOT have to upgrade to windows 10 as they would for DX12.
 
Funny how people read into things differently.

Vulkan is a API that was long overdue, and, since it is open to all, this makes it easier to program on for a variety of open systems.

However, the way things seems to be going these days is, because most of the games are console ports, at this time, it is just easier to have code that works on the XB1 & PCs (which is DX 12).
The flip side of that is, PS4 doesn't use DX12, and, from what I have been hearing is they want Vulkan, and AMD & others are helping them achieve that goal.
This translates to, PS4 games ports will most likely use Vulkan, and XB1 game ports will most likely use DX12.

Valve is pushing people toward Vulkan as well, since, not only can it work on windows, but linux as well, and user of Windows 7 & 8 do NOT have to upgrade to windows 10 as they would for DX12.

Just my two cents, but all that you have written remains to be seen...;) I have nothing against Vulkan, but whenever I hear someone preaching a new API as if it's going to save the world I get a bit recalcitrant...;) OpenGL is badly in need of replacement inside Windows--but let's face it--when it comes to AAA computer games that require decent horsepower to run--the Windows market is the place to be. Valve's splinter of Linux distribution is so small it is nearly non-existent--indeed, Valve would close shop quickly should it decide not to support Windows--so that is not in the cards. Windows will continue to hold the largest share of the gaming market, by far, in perpetuity--unless Microsoft decides to go out of business for some reason...;)

Nothing in the mobile markets has the horsepower, and indeed, probably never will have the horsepower when compared to state-of-the-art desktop computer-gaming tech. If VR should catch on--and I have my doubts about that--it will require horsepower that no mobile device remotely on the horizon will have the computational power to drive. It will be a boon to desktop computing hardware sales, no question about it, so that's why I support it. I could care less about the actual VR tech itself. My tastes run to large-screen, 4k+ gaming, etc.

As for the consoles...bear in mind that the one redeeming factor about both the xBone and the PS-foreskin (sorry for the pun!) is that they are both 100% x86 PCs inside. It's encouraging to me because eventually Microsoft is going to catch on that the old console paradigm of 8-10 years between hardware versions is dead as a doornail. Or it will be Sony, first. Nothing is stopping either of these companies from releasing new and improved game consoles every 2-3 years (!) that take direct advantage of the continuing improvements in x86 computer tech. All improved models would automatically be 100% backwards-compatible with the older models--because they are all x86 PCs, etc. Basically, every couple of years or so for just a few hundred bucks, console owners can double/triple their gaming hardware muscle...;) Start selling peripherals like optional keyboards, mice, hard drives, SSD's, etc.--and presto!--consoles have disappeared forever, swallowed whole by x86 computer tech! Now *everyone's* on a desktop of some kind, in reality! Bravo! So where does Vulkan come in?

This is where a developer really has to analyze the potential of cross-market code. If he's developing a high-quality game that will demand PC-level horsepower to run--he's going to be looking foremost at the Windows/d3d markets because they are by far the largest market for that kind of product--mobile tech can't run it, etc. OK, still a small slice of the pie, OS X uses decade-old OpenGL and Apple has as much interest in Mac gaming as it does in helping law enforcement protect American citizens from terrorism...;) But Macs can run Windows natively, too--thanks to Apple's Bootcamp--so that's another ding for D3d, even though it's a fairly small ding.

As I mentioned earlier, the critical balance for whether Vulkan makes it--and I hope it does--will be developer support and that is 100% dependent on the level of support the Khronos Group gives developers through its development tools. The market is not necessarily cross-platform at all, really--it's the Windows market primarily in which Vulkan will sink or swim (as Vulkan is introduced as a Windows API, specifically.)

My own opinion is that Vulkan's adoption rate is probably going to parallel Mantle's--but that's a maybe. Mantle was announced by AMD prior to Microsoft announcing anything past D3d11...people were asking if there was going to *be* a Dx12 release from Microsoft. No response immediately came from Microsoft so AMD launched Mantle as a way of lighting a fire under Microsoft's derriere--and it worked--and so now that Microsoft is back in the PC-gaming API business again, AMD no longer needs to concern itself with Mantle--and Mantle is all but gone already. Vulkan is being launched squarely against d3d12, and it will be the tools for developers primarily that will determine the ultimate success or failure of the Vulkan API.
 
i wouldnt be arguing with Bob if i was you, hes an actual developer.

I'm happy to debate with people, but someone rocking and saying 'no' without bothering to support it with any facts, reasoned arguments or other words just isn't worth my time ;)
 
OpenGL is badly in need of replacement inside Windows

There was an old saying about OpenGL; it was the best choice when you had no other choice :wink:

--but let's face it--when it comes to AAA computer games that require decent horsepower to run--the Windows market is the place to be. Valve's splinter of Linux distribution is so small it is nearly non-existent--indeed

Indeed, the stats on the Steam Hardware Survey point to this; Win7 controlling just over 30% of the market and Win10 just under with total Windows dominance at 95% of the share.
(and that uptake of Win10 is why the "gamers wont have to update past Win7" argument people have made holds very little water imo).

Linux based OSes don't even make up 1% of the share.

Nothing in the mobile markets has the horsepower, and indeed, probably never will have the horsepower when compared to state-of-the-art desktop computer-gaming tech.

While true mobile is the one area where, potentially, Vulkan will be a massive win.
OpenGL|ES had quickly become a mess, in terms of the API, driver support and indeed the overhead on the runtime - this is part of why Apple made Metal and, assuming everyone falls in to line, should be something Vulkan solves.

(I spent just over a year supporting Android at my last place; at the start I was a card carrying Android fan, now you couldn't pay me to use an Android device.. hateful hateful things...)

As for the consoles... [...] So where does Vulkan come in?

This remains my question; I know some people have asked for Vulkan support on the PS4, I even heard potential of maybe happening, but I have to ask why?
The API layer is, without a doubt, the thinnest bit and the PS4's Gnm will look, from a high level point of view, like Vulkan - so you don't save complexity and indeed you'd still have to have extensions to allow for the hardware of the PS4 where it differs significantly from a PC. (Pretty sure some NDA stuff still exists on this, thus vagueness...)

And as I mentioned before, most places have a PS4 back-end up and running and have for some time now - over two years since console release and it was maybe 18 months before release I got to see the specs (I think, memory is a little vague..) - so the PS4 ship has largely sailed and for everyone else coming in now, well, Unity and UE4 are the solutions.

[source]
As I mentioned earlier, the critical balance for whether Vulkan makes it--and I hope it does--will be developer support and that is 100% dependent on the level of support the Khronos Group gives developers through its development tools. The market is not necessarily cross-platform at all, really--it's the Windows market primarily in which Vulkan will sink or swim (as Vulkan is introduced as a Windows API, specifically.)
[/quote]

You will have games with Vulkan support out there, UE4 has already demonstrated the API running (although there was nothing particularly magically 'Vulkan' about it) and Unity have in house work going on although I get the impression it isn't a priority and they have bigger fish to fry stability and performance wise.
(Heck, knowing what I know about the UE4 code base I'd be surprised if the performance delta was really that great as much of that code wasn't great when I last saw it...)

My own opinion is that Vulkan's adoption rate is probably going to parallel Mantle's--but that's a maybe.

I'm not so sure.
Mantle filled a need, a cross platform need amusingly, which with the release of D3D12 largely got swallowed up on Windows - if you are a big AAA developer then I'm not sure where your motivation is for using it.
The only, only, way I can think it makes sense is if you are starting out basically now and are writing your low overhead renderer from the ground up and, importantly, weren't planning on hitting the Xbox - then it might make sense. Otherwise, I'd still say D3D12 first - hits two platforms right off the bat.

Vulkan is being launched squarely against d3d12, and it will be the tools for developers primarily that will determine the ultimate success or failure of the Vulkan API.

The tools and plans for the tools look sane; the problem is it launched when it did; months behind Win10 and D3D12's public release.

Everything is still beta where as D3D12 has had some settling time now.

The good news for Vulkan is that D3D12 has probably found many of the underlying issues so things might go smoother.. but it was still late to the party and while not bad it hasn't brought enough with it to make everyone stop hanging around the host and hang with it instead.
 
Given the spec has only just been finalised it feels unlikely, at least to start with - it will likely depend on who does the hardware as much as anything.

If it is another AMD based chip then Mantle is possible, or they could continue their tradition of an API like another one, so it will be their custom API but 'Mantle like' (much like how the Wii and WiiU was 'opengl like') - which would put it in the same area as the PS4 API wise.

As it's not a console I'm in any way involved in take the above for the slight guess work that it is.
 
Well if the Steambox start gaining numbers over time plus Valve Source Engine(s) uses Vulkan not only on Linux but PCs and Android etc. Others may use the Source Engine for PC, Steambox consoles and Android. There is probably plenty of room for a successful second API due to that DX12 is Windows only. Windows dominate or does it? Considering Android numbers maybe not. For higher end gaming of course Windows is king.
 
There was an old saying about OpenGL; it was the best choice when you had no other choice :wink:

....


The good news for Vulkan is that D3D12 has probably found many of the underlying issues so things might go smoother.. but it was still late to the party and while not bad it hasn't brought enough with it to make everyone stop hanging around the host and hang with it instead.

Not much I can disagree with...;)
 
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