ATI AIW X1900 and ATI TV WONDER 650

[d1st4nt]

I've checked the other threads and haven't seen this issue addressed directly, so I was wondering if I could get some direct help with it...

That being said, here's my dilemna:

I have 3 tv tuners. 1) ATI x1900 AIW, 2) ATI TV WONDER 650, 3) AVERMEDIA ULTRATV 1500 MCE.

Now then, I installed the latest Drivers/Software Suites from ATI's website for both 1 and 2 and loaded 3 off the cd it came with.

I've configured MCE to only use 1 and 2. Here's my trouble.

Initially, MCE was only picking up static (salt and pepper screen) from my cable input, which is live and working (checked it on a tv). After going back through and using the TV setup multiple times I upgraded from static to a solid blue screen.

Does anyone else have this setup, and if so, should I only use the drivers that came WITH the cards, should I only install half of the software packages? I'm a bit confused on this bit.

Any help would be appreciated, this computer build is to appease my wife who is very pregnant and very impatient for it working

[Steve N]

I had a bugger getting this to work, despite reading here on the board it would be "simple".

The x1900 will definately work on it's own in MCE if you do a full install off the CD.

The 650 will work if you install the recommended package off ATI/AMD website (I didn't bother with the CD, or with Catalyst Media Center).

If you install both, the x1900 will not work in MMC, but it "should" work in Windows Media Center. The 650 will sort of work in MMC, but will probably end up crashing. It will work in Windows Media Center.

In other words, both cards work in MC, but won't work together in any native ATI application, that I could manage.

Now, you have to verify that they are working individually too. I found the 650 was VERY VERY fussy about signal strength, far more than my AIW. My AIW will work fine with no cable amplifier, with a bit of static on 2 weak channels out of 70. The 650 won't detect any channels without an amp on the line. With one amp it detected about a dozen channels, with a second amp it found all 70 but there was a ton of visual and audio static. Meanwhile the AIW was clear as a bell on the same line. NOTE: I tried this even without a splitter, feeding a single line into the 650, and it was still too weak.

So the first thing you should do is find out if your 650 works on it's own. MCE should be configuring it perfectly well if it has any signal strength. I would clean out your drivers, just install the Catalyst display driver, no WDM or Control Center. If the T200 shows up anyway, disable it in Device Manager. Then do the 650 install and see if the cable signal is strong enough and if Windows MC will set it up alone. If so, then add the full install for the x1900 after and set it up again in Windows MC as a second stream.

[d1st4nt]

thanks, i've noticed the same thing with my 650... which is a shame b/c now i'll have to configure my avermedia and x1900 together i suppose until i can fix that problem.

does anyone know of a good utlity to set watch/record order for the tuners? meaning if i want the x1900 to be used only for live tv and the other card for recording?

[Agustus]

Well, neither my AIW X1900 or my TV Wonder 650 have exhibited any issues with respect to signal strength in MCE. They were both very easy to setup in MCE (Vista is another story though).

My suggestion is to keep it simple. Therefore, don’t install any unnecessary applications.

There are also a few possible issues to be aware of:

1) MCE 2K5 SP2 + RU2 (Rollup2) only officially supports 2x analog tuners and 2x digital tuners (you have 3x analog + 1x digital)

2) The TV Wonder 650 has 1x analog + 1x digital functionality but concurrent operation is not possible due to design limitations. These limitations cause “Erroneous Errors” in MCE. Therefore, it may be advisable to either not configure analog functionality on the TV Wonder 650 in MCE (since you already have an excess of analog tuners) or at the very least be very careful to configure the TV Wonder 650 analog and digital components in such a way as to minimize the possibility of concurrent operation within MCE.

There is no need to disable a tuner in “Device Manager”. Simply chose which tuners you want to use when manually configuring the tuners in the MCE tuner setup.

Here is a really good “Media Center Tuner Priority”

http://www.salloway.org.uk/MediaCenter/util/index.htm

There is also WatchHDTV has a beta that works with the TV Wonder 650 so it can be used at the very least to test digital TV on the 650. WatchHDTV is a great program BTW.

http://watchhdtv.net/download.aspx

Generally speaking though, all I had to do to get my AIW X1900 working in MCE was to install the ATI “Media Center Edition Encoder” and the latest ATI “Media Center Edition Catalyst” drivers.

For the TV Wonder 650 all I needed to install was the latest “550/650” drivers.

I was certain that I had a properly configured MCE setup before these parts were added and I was certain of having a good reasonably clean analog and digital signal.

I used a radioshack 1-to-4 Bidirectional Cable-TV Amplifier for both analog and digital (one for each) and it works very well:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=search

[d1st4nt]

thank you

that works perfectly.

I only have the encoder, the drivers, and the decoder loaded and it works like a charm... best part, my other analog tuner is freely available for use with Orb

Now I don't have to be so bored at work.

in addition? I wanted to set the 650 as the recorder b/c a) the quality is slightly better on the analog side (I don't have an HDTV signal coming in yet), and b) b/c if the 650 starts recording and then is selected immediately after by MCE for live TV, MCE breaks until you restart it (found out this issue the hard way and verified it on ATI's customer care).

again, thank you so much for the help

Now if only thegreenbutton.com was still up, I could finish outfitting MCE

[Agustus]

Don’t mention it

The Greenbutton.com is back up,…..finally!

As AIW X1900 and ATI TV WONDER 650, as stated before, the AIW X1900 analog tuner should be set to primary and the 650 analog should be set to secondary for the greatest level of flexibility if digital TV will be used (setup in MCE).

For example, if setup as recommended:

Dual analog watch and record is possible as well as analog + digital watch and record. Dual analog + digital watch and record will not function properly resulting in “Erroneous Errors” (prompt to reboot ect)..

If the 650 analog is primary:

Dual analog watch and record is possible but analog + digital watch / record will not function properly and result in “Erroneous Errors” (prompt to reboot and such).

For users with such a setup who wish to use the 650 as primary analog it is likely best to deselect the digital TV option in the MCE tuner setup.

Anyway, enjoy!

[ATImeShifter]

Dual analog watch and record is possible but analog + digital watch / record will not function properly and result in “Erroneous Errors” (prompt to reboot and such).

Ok, I'm a bit confused. As you know I have both the AIW x1900 & 650, and will likely be upgrading to MCE and sticking with it unless and until Vista offers full AIW support (and is proven to be otherwise relatively functional and stable).

I'd like to set MCE up so that at any time, I have the option of doing any of the following:

1 - Watch one analog station, record another analog station
2 - Watch an analog station, record a digital station
3 - Watch a digital station, record an analog station
4 - Record one analog station, record another analog station
5 - Record an analog station, record a digital station

Which of these can or cannot be done, and which can be done, but with limitations and/or issues, and what might those be?

Also, is PIP possible with any of these combos?

This is assuming, of course, no scheduling conflicts, and that things are set up properly.

[Agustus]

With the AIW X1900 and the TV Wonder 650 a user logically has 3 tuners in total (2x analog + 1x digital). Effectively there are only 2 tuners in such a setup though since there is no concurrent operation on the 650.

For the sake of simplicity, reliability and ease of configuration it is advisable that users setup their primary watch and primary record analog tuners to be the same. In such a case as this the AIW X1900 would be that primary analog tuner.

If the AIW X1900 is set as the primary tuner then the first tuner used will be the AIW X1900 leaving the 650 to function as either an analog tuner or a digital tuner when or if needed.

If the 650 analog is set as the primary analog tuner then there can be no reliable analog + digital functionality in the vast majority of cases on said system because it would force the TV Wonder 650 to use both its analog and its digital tuners simultaneously almost all the time,….resulting error messages, missed recordings and so on.

You can think of it as load balancing and if the 650 is tasked with a load consisting of either analog or digital your fine but if both are forced on it,….it will choke.

So to answer your question:


“2 - Watch an analog station, record a digital station” - not at all likely to happen unless the AIW X1900 is set to be the primary tuner for both watch and record.

“3 - Watch a digital station, record an analog station” - same thing, not likely to happen, errors and prompts to reboot or restart MCE are likely though.

“5 - Record an analog station, record a digital station” - again, same thing, not likely to work due to high probability of the 650 being tasked with both the analog and the digital load.

Anything with dual analog or single digital should work but you can see how this can effectively hobble a MCE system.

[ATImeShifter]

Sorry, still confused. ;-)

If I set the AIW x1900 as the primary analog tuner, which of 1-5 can and cannot be done? Maybe I'm thick, but it seems to me that any combination of being able to watch or record an analog or digital station while recording another analog or digital station should be possible with these 2 cards (other than, of course, digital for both, which is clearly not possible since there's only 1 digital tuner between the 2 cards).

IOW, are the limitations you mentioned for 2, 3 & 5 only when you set the 650 as the primary tuner, or also when you set the AIW x1900 as the primary tuner?

[Agustus]

IOW, are the limitations you mentioned for 2, 3 & 5 only when you set the 650 as the primary tuner, or also when you set the AIW x1900 as the primary tuner?

Correct, the problems start to occur when the 650 is set as the default analog tuner.

Most people will probably want the 650 as the default tuner because it’s a hardware “encoder” solution with better video quality and lower CPU usage but such a configuration will more then likely cause problems.

If the AIW X1900 is set as the default analog tuner you can do everything from 1-to-5 without issue.

[ATImeShifter]

Thanks, that clears things up for me...sort of. ;-)

I.e. if I do--as you recommend--set the x1900 as the default tuner, will I still be able to select the 650's analog tuner instead of the x1900's tuner when recording shows, or will MCE always force the x1900's tuner to be used first unless I'm recording 2 analog shows at once? And if I can select the 650's tuner for recording, is that only for manually recorded shows, or scheduled ones as well?

Of course, even if I can do any of this, it's irrelevant if I'm watching a digital station--which is kind of why I got the 650...

[Agustus]

Thanks, that clears things up for me...sort of. ;-)

No problem man ;-)

I.e. if I do--as you recommend--set the x1900 as the default tuner, will I still be able to select the 650's analog tuner instead of the x1900's tuner when recording shows, or will MCE always force the x1900's tuner to be used first unless I'm recording 2 analog shows at once? And if I can select the 650's tuner for recording, is that only for manually recorded shows, or scheduled ones as well?

Such a configuration would make the AIW X1900 the default “go to” analog tuner and as such the default watch / record tuner for all analog. The 650 analog tuner will only be used if the AIW X1900 is currently occupied.

You can initiate the 650 analog tuner by starting an analog recording on an arbitrary channel, thus using the AIW X1900 tuner, and then tuning to another analog channel, thus using the 650 analog tuner. Doing this for this expressed purpose would defeat the reasoning of assigning the AIW X1900 as the primary analog tuner but for a quick record or watch it should be OK.

Ideally the video fidelity of these analog tuners shouldn’t be so imposing that the user would want to do this.

Of course, even if I can do any of this, it's irrelevant if I'm watching a digital station--which is kind of why I got the 650...

Well then it would really be advisable to have the AIW X1900 set as primary to help alleviate the possibility of tuner conflicts that exploit the non-concurrent limitations of the TV Wonder 650.

[ATImeShifter]

Despite AMD's and some peoples' claims that the 650's tuner is the best of its kind, I've not noticed any visual differences between its tuner and the AIW x1900's, pro or con. Perhaps that's just me, but neither hold a candle to the much older analog tuner that ATI used on its previous line of tuner cards.

In any case, my primary reason for preferring the 650's tuner over the AIW x1900's is because I often experience audio/video sync problems with the latter, especially when recording (but, strangely, also while simply watching when using CMC, which never happened under MMC). Perhaps it's more of a software issue, though. Have you experienced such problems in XP MCE05, and if so are there workarounds?

[Agustus]

A long time ago before the AIW line had readily available official MCE drivers and support I did see some slight audio sync issues rarely but they were manageable. I’m not sure I recall the workaround or fix but it was something simply like pause and play or resizing to a window and back to full screen,….skip back skip forward, nothing involved.

I haven’t come across audio sync issues with the AIW X1900 in MCE and I don’t expect that you will either given your Core 2 Duo CPU.

[ATImeShifter]

Well, I only ask because I've had these problems in both MMC & CMC under XP Pro on my current system, so it's obviously not system-related. Given that you don't see this problem in MCE, it would appear that it's software and driver-related (and to a certain extent hardware-related, given that the AIW x1900 doesn't have a hardware encoder).

Ironically, none of which was a problem on my 5+ year old dual PIII/AIW 7200 system. Progress is not always a good thing, it seems...

[Steve N]

I had audio sync problems last year, now they've cleared up, no hardware change, and there is still no problem when I occasionally reinstall the orginal drivers on my CD, 9.10. Since I haven't kept track of other changes, thinking it was ATI, I can only guess that this cleared up with some Windows update.

[ATImeShifter]

I finished installing XP MCE05 and can't figure out where and how to set the AIW x1900's tuner as the default and the 650's as the secondary. Any tips you can offer? I've gone through the settings and can't find a section for doing this.

So I just configured both tuners as per the setup screens, which gives me a watchable signal (although from which tuner I'm not sure), but when I record and try to watch some other channel, MCE gives me an error telling me that I have to shut down MCE and restart it. Is this the error you mentioned, and does this mean that the 650 is the default tuner--and if so, how do I reverse this?

Oh, and what's the deal with MCE looking like a new and improved version of CMC? Are they both based on PowerCinema? I just put up a new thread on this. Weird...

[Agustus]

I finished installing XP MCE05 and can't figure out where and how to set the AIW x1900's tuner as the default and the 650's as the secondary. Any tips you can offer? I've gone through the settings and can't find a section for doing this.

Tip: while watching Live TV (without time-shifting back) unplug the cable feed to determine which tuner is actively being used, simple but effective.

There are no real provisions for tuner priority within the MCE interface or outside of it for that matter. You must either do so from within the registry for the OS using “regedit” (or some other registry editing utility) or you can use a third-party utility specifically designed to set the tuner priority in MCE.

Here is one such utility for MCE 2K5 and Vista:

Media Center Tuner Priority


Set the AIW X1900 with a check mark for all the options: “Enabled for MCE“, “Use this card to watch Live TV with first” and “Use this card to record with first”.

Set the TV Wonder 650 with a check mark only for “Enabled for MCE” and leave all the rest of the options for the 650 blank. Click update registry and your done, actually you might need to reboot before the changes take effect.

The AIW X1900 may be referred to as “ATI T200 AVStream analog tuner”.

The TV Wonder 650 may be referred to as “ATI AVStream analog tuner”.

So I just configured both tuners as per the setup screens, which gives me a watchable signal (although from which tuner I'm not sure), but when I record and try to watch some other channel, MCE gives me an error telling me that I have to shut down MCE and restart it. Is this the error you mentioned, and does this mean that the 650 is the default tuner--and if so, how do I reverse this?

See tip above.

Yes this sounds like it could be the issue that I was referring to earlier and it is an issue with the TV Wonder 650 specifically with MCE. Its not the fault of MCE itself that I can see but rather the 650’s non-concurrent design with respect to its analog and digital components.

This should only occur with simultaneous analog and digital usage. Following the instructions above should alleviate this thus allowing simultaneous analog and digital functionality.
BTW, this error message is “erroneous” and it is not typically necessary to reboot or restart MCE. This is just the MCE way of dealing with a tuner that is not functioning properly and in a very real way the 650 isn’t functioning properly since it is more then likely violating MCE specifications.

If this occurs within a analog + analog watch / record situation then it is more then likely that the AIW isn’t setup properly.

Oh, and what's the deal with MCE looking like a new and improved version of CMC? Are they both based on PowerCinema? I just put up a new thread on this. Weird...

Actually its CMC and PowerCinema that are imitating MCE and they are not the only ones. The MCE code base is unique.

[ATImeShifter]

Thanks. I found a link to this priority-setting utility from an earlier comment of yours and ran it. When I rebooted and started MCE, I got snow for a TV image, so something clearly wasn't set up right.

My cable signal is split 4 ways, w/o amp, which wasn't a problem in MMC or CMC but perhaps MCE has a harder time with split or weak signals. Actually, the splitting is even worse, as first it is split in two, with one signal going to the cable modem and the other to a 2nd 3-way splitter, and from that one signal goes to the STB, one to the x1900, and one to the 650. I might try to temporarily simplify the splitting to see if it's a signal strength issue.

I'm further inclined to believe that MCE is fussier about signal strength by the fact that it seems to have a much harder time locking and holding onto a digital OTA signal, compared to CMC, which also had problems but not this bad. It automatically found all 27 digital stations in my area (North Seattle), whereas MCE only found 16, and I had to manually add 11 others. And it's not actually tuning many of these.

Then again, we've had some pretty awful weather here lately (as you've probably heard and seen on TV--did you see the video of that poor SUV playing bumper pool with poles, cars and fences last night?), so perhaps some of the stations here are down or operating with reduced signals or backup antennas. In any case, looks like I've got some experimenting and tweaking to do. Still, I was definitely able to lock onto and switch between an analog and digital signal in CMC at once, verified by PIP showing both.

Weird.