Warning!!!! ATI Blocks VCR Playback Of Movies You Own On AIW Video Inputs!!!

[tmo]

Macrovision or time-base problems?

VHS have very unstable timings... playing/capturing back these with a capture card might give you skewed images that could look like Macrovision CP.

I tried capturing VHS tapes with the "super" Theater550, just to find skewed and unstable images.

It seems ATI forgot to put a TBC (Time-base corrector) on the Theater550

Most DV camcorders have a built-in TBC. If your tapes are not "Macrovisioned", you might digitize your VHS tapes by taping them using your camcorder (using the RCA Composite video inputs of your DVcam), and then Firewire the video from the DVcam into your PC.

You can also rent a TBC ($$$/day), or get something like Panasonic's DMR-ES30V, which "tapes" on DVD, dubs VHS tapes, and has a TBC and pic quality equal or better than the Theatre550.

You can then edit/transcode/reencode the MPEG2 file created by the DVR machine on the computer.

Sweet box, check it out. (top rated in pic quality by Consumer Reports)

some capture cards don't have this problem

MMC for Theater550 please, Using GraphEdit is not OK

[Dylan.97b]

I was all excited when the Inquirer posted that ATI should release the AIW X1800 soon so I came here to see if there was any more info.
After reading this thread, I think I might just go for a regular Nvidia card instead and keep an extra DRM-free computer with my AIW 7200 in it for TV recording.
I do plan on digitizing some VHS tapes in the near future.

If I were to buy one of those $60 video stabilizers off of eBay, would that get rid both the 1980's macrovision and the recent copyright flag?
Are they the same thing?
Would it increase the recording quality of weak signals?
Is there any signal degradation when using it?

[HillBoy]

I was all excited when the Inquirer posted that ATI should release the AIW X1800 soon so I came here to see if there was any more info.
After reading this thread, I think I might just go for a regular Nvidia card instead and keep an extra DRM-free computer with my AIW 7200 in it for TV recording.
I do plan on digitizing some VHS tapes in the near future.

If I were to buy one of those $60 video stabilizers off of eBay, would that get rid both the 1980's macrovision and the recent copyright flag?
Are they the same thing?
Would it increase the recording quality of weak signals?
Is there any signal degradation when using it?

I bought a Sima GoDVD off eBay for this purpose and while it does let me actually play VHS through my AIW 9600XT, the video quality is simply godawful. With the Cat 5.x drivers, there is still a faint Macrovision effect where the video jiggles and there is a band of flashing white at the top of the screen. As for the rest of your questions:

Yes it would do so somewhat but I wouldn't expect all that dramatic an improvement in video quality. The Sima has 4 settings: Normal-Enhanced-Black/White-Darker and they work fine but the AIW garbles the signal so badly that they don't make that much of a difference. As far as signal degradation, I really haven't seen any with my device.

[Dylan.97b]

I just read this about this guy's problems with ATI and macrovision:

http://www.biline.ca/ati_macrovision.htm

And his solutions that worked:

http://www.biline.ca/macrovision.htm

Sounds like we should **** ATI and get a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-250 instead.

[tmo]

video stabilizers are not time base correctors

If you want to remove Macrovision from a VHS tape you will need a "video stabilizer" (some of them may remove Macrovision) *AND* a TBC.

never tried this setup, but it makes sense.

Good luck

[grog]

I said it before and I will say it again.

The problem as I see it is two fold.

1.) The ATI MMC/TV+ application will not allow copy protected "MacroVision" content to be played or recorded. The problem with playing is a bug as I see it. The problem with recording is not.

To add more detail here, the Theatre 200 chipset includes a good AGC component and as such is able to handle "MacroVision" detection just fine. Actually in the US products that have been manufatured in the last several years require such protection!

http://www.macrovision.com/company/customers_partners/customers/ic.shtml

IC Manufacturers who are partners with the company "MacroVision" include:

ATI Technologies, Inc.
nVidia Corporation

I think it is easy to see that if the content has copy protection the ATI MMC player must not allow it to record even if we feel it is not fair use, it is still the law.

How it works.

The "MacroVision" works by placing noise in the lumanince of the signal.
The AGC circuit is triggered by this signal that the program is protected.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/Stream_d/hh/Stream_d/dvd-design_8f18fffb-c305-456e-95c4-8ba98f7f6480.xml.asp

Macrovision

Macrovision is supported by the last device handling the video data before leaving the computer. In the case of a video port connection to a video card, the video card and the DVD navigator/splitter handle all Macrovision processing. The decoder is not involved.

If the decoder has an NTSC output, Macrovision encoding and Macrovision compliance is the responsibility of the decoder card. The KS_COPY_MACROVISION property indicates the level of Macrovision encoding on the media (levels 0 to 3). The decoder may use this information to enable or disable Macrovision encoding on the NTSC output.

The above is also true for VHS tapes.

How I tested....

"Sling Blade" VHS tape with MacroVision protection.

VHS tape "Sling Blade" includes MacroVision protection.
With the last release of the ATI drivers we are unable to play or record this VHS tape from MMC/TV+ using the Composite Video Input.
We should be able to play it but that as it is we can not.
AmCap for example will play the protected movie as well as GraphEdit but both programs will prevent recording.

From the filter standpoint there are two pins for connecting the "ATI Analog Capture" filter to the "Video Render" or other output filter. These two pins are "Capture" and "Preview". In GraphEdit for example we can play the protected stream provided we are conntected to the "preview" pin but we can not play the stream if a conntection is made to the capture pin.

If you are still with me on this one then it should be easy to see that the "Capture" pin on the "ATI Capture Filter" seems to be the issue though I can not prove this for sure. There are other possible causes but this does fit with what I see with the filters being used.

One way to tell that copy protection is an issue is the "record" buttons will be grayed out on the MMC/TV+ application.

Another way is with NeroVision. Notice that is does the same thing!
We can play the video from NeroVision but the record buttons are grayed out!




"Video from CAM" recorded 16 years ago.

With the latest version of MMC and last released video drivers for my AIW 9700 PRO and also the ATI HDTV WONDER card (analog side) the tape played and recorded fine.


"Dean Martin Celebrity Roasts" VHS tape with no MacroVision protection.

The "Dean Martin Celebrity Roasts" were produced by Guthy Renker and appear to not use any type of copy protection. So how did this tape fair?

With the latest version of MMC and last release of the video drivers for my AIW 9700 PRO and also the ATI HDTV WONDER card (analog side) the tape played and recorded fine.

NeroVision is recording the content just fine. MMC/TV+ was able to record as well.




Everything say's this is a copy protection issue to me.
But what about the reports that some "non-copy-protected" VHS tapes will not play as well with MMC? In this case I can only guess that the AGC circuit on the VHS player signal is to weak. In this case the ATI AGC will mistake the signal for noise in the lumanince part of the signal and assume it is protected content.

I have tested this setup with two ATI capture devices (ATI AIW 9700 PRO and ATI HDTV WONDER). I also used two seperate VHS units to test against.
As it stands I can not create the problem described here other than the playback of "MacroVision" copy protected content which I have reported to ATI as a bug.

I also did testing with the ATI 8500DV card and in this case the video playback of "MacroVision" content did not have a problem. The ATI 8500DV card is old enough that it uses the older NON-NSP WDM drivers, so the new video digital path may have an issue with copy protected items being played. Still the ATI 8500DV will not allow recording of the protected information as expected.

I only see a playback issue with VHS copy protected tapes.

Direct Link to Images

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/6050/macro0011dj.jpg

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/3218/macro0027ov.jpg

Greg

[HillBoy]

Well I just spent 2 frustrating hours trying to download the older WDM drivers from ATI's website. Even though I've logged in, I keep getting their stupid-ass "Unauthorized Download" page. I have reached the limit of my patience with ATI. I was about to spend 2 hours trying Grog's suggestion of using an older WDM driver but the hell with it. If ATI is this incompetent, then I no longer want to own any of their products. It's no wonder that myself and others have been waiting for over a year for them to fix this VHS tape issue. If those fools can't even get a website to work right, then how in creation can we expect them to fix the defects in their products. I have had it - I'm looking at over 200 VHS tapes that I need to convert to DVD and my AIW is completely worthless in that respect. I just glad ATI showed me their true colors before I shelled out more money for their HDTV product which probably wouldn't work either.

[rbV5]

I just tried recording to my HDTV Wonder using Composite input and MMC 9.08 TV Player:

*My own VHS tapes that have no macrovision protection record and playback with no issues.

*My VHS-C recordings from a VHS-C camcorder using the VHS-C>VHS adaptor, also record and playback with no issues.

*Some of my Copywrited commercial VHS- tapes with macrovision (assumed since they have the FBI warning) Playback and record with no issues!

*Some of my Copywrited commercial VHS tapes with macrovison protection will not playback at all, or are unwatchable.

I've found none that will playback, but not record of either commercial or home VHS tapes. I've found none of my own VHS tapes that would not both playback and record.


I also have an AIW card in another rig, so I'll test it when I get a chance, but it looks OK on all my own VHS tapes, and hit or miss on commercial tapes.

[xtknight]

I just tried recording to my HDTV Wonder using Composite input and MMC 9.08 TV Player:

*My own VHS tapes that have no macrovision protection record and playback with no issues.

*My VHS-C recordings from a VHS-C camcorder using the VHS-C>VHS adaptor, also record and playback with no issues.

*Some of my Copywrited commercial VHS- tapes with macrovision (assumed since they have the FBI warning) Playback and record with no issues!

*Some of my Copywrited commercial VHS tapes with macrovison protection will not playback at all, or are unwatchable.

I've found none that will playback, but not record of either commercial or home VHS tapes. I've found none of my own VHS tapes that would not both playback and record.


I also have an AIW card in another rig, so I'll test it when I get a chance, but it looks OK on all my own VHS tapes, and hit or miss on commercial tapes.

Have you tried using other software (preferably graphedit) for the tapes that didn't playback? Ironically I get this message about macrovision protection when I switch resolutions on my HDTV tuner and leave the S-Video connected. The image flickers and probably the vertical sync screws up in the process and then it stops my recording. That really gets to me sometimes.

I wonder if it's just ATI MMC preventing this. I don't know if it's actually trapping an error within the driver or determining from the image itself. I tend to think it's trapping a driver error because ATI MMC doesn't have access to the vertical sync signal itself.

Though devices that fix the vertical sync signal should be relatively easy to make.

[rbV5]

Have you tried using other software (preferably graphedit) for the tapes that didn't playback?

No, not yet. I'm going to test MMC with my other cards first. I'm working this week, so I'll have little time to squeeze any testing in, but I will try to at least try MMC with VCR input. Next week, I'll have time to do some comprehensive testing.

I was suprised that more than half of the commercial macrovision protected tapes I've tried so far will both playback and record.

It does look like a bug for protected playback however, since none of the tapes I picked that showed signs of macrovision protection would play at all (or watchable anyway) It acts as if it detects the macrovision, it kills both playback and record instead of just record.

[electric sheep]

Has anyone used ATItool to remove the macrovision check sucessfully?

How are you guys doing this with ATI Tool?
ATi Tool is for overclocking and scanning for artifacts. I've never seen any settings for Macrovision or video capture in ATI Tool.

[rbV5]

I tested my AIW9700pro using latest Catalyst Drivers + MMC 9.08 Window XP MCE.

Composite Input from Sharp VC-A400 VHS VCR.

Results were the virtually the same as with my HDTV Wonder.

*All my home VHS tapes play/record no issues.
*All my VHS-C tapes play/record with no issues
*More than half of my Commercial VHS tapes play/record with no issues.

*The rest of my commercial VHS tapes will not play/record at all (or are unwatchable)

It does look like a bug for commercial tape playback as I got the same results using the Funai VHS VCR, however, I've not yet found a single home VHS tape that wouldn't both playback and record...even poor quality tapes have no issue other than PQ

[MrDave]

Cat's 5.11 and the subsequent new WDM still has a bug.
Any VHS Tape with Macrovision Protection is unable to be "Watched" using MMC 9.08 and Cat's 5.11 on AIW 9600XT , AIW X800XT, and other newer products.

It has become quite apparent that, this being the 8th release after which ATI had introduced this bug, ATI is not going to correct the problem.

I have many VHS tapes I own, And I am unable to use my ATI Retail AIW X800XT as it is marketed. This is because the WDM Drivers (beginning with 5.3 and continuing through cat's 5.11) refuse to allow a VHS Tape with macrovision to be played through MMC. All I wan't to do is Watch my VHS Tapes. But ATI has decided to create a condition where any macrovision encoded tape will be stuck flashing back and forth between two frames of video at the point the macrovision protection was detected. While approximately the first 5 lines of video at the top of the screen are passed through to the player just fine while the rest of the screen is stuck in what looks like a bad "Pause" flickering between 2 frames of video.

Now if you use a device such as a Sima CT-200 Video Stabalizer, the Macrovision pulses happen to be cleaned out of the signal path and you can then watch your VHS Tapes. But, as I've said before, you shouldn't have to spend $115.00 dollars to add a *Sima CT-200 to your $500-$600 ATI card so you can be able to use a VHS VCR and watch your Commercially produced tapes which you OWN.

*(In this manner you are able to use the card the way the retail packaging proclaims the product can operate on it's own. Clearly ATI is, once again, practicing deceptive advertising and falsely stating product specificatios. - All of which can be corrected if ATI took the time to correct the operation of the AGC circuit in the Theater 200 chipset)

[Alt+F4]

Man I was wondering what the hell happened. This past weekend I pulled my VCR out of the closet to watch a tape for a school project, and nogo. I have an AIW 9600 XT and have done it before plenty of other times. What a bunch of crap.

[Rellik Remag]

POST #24

and he has a file under april 2nd 2005 for download
that someone could try

I gave the file in "Method One" a try and it worked!

A few tricks to get it work though, as Windows kept replacing the [April 2 2005] file with a more current file. I didn't have to mess with the Windows Registry.

• Do a search in your Windows directory for ANY files of the exact same filename. I just renamed ALL the file copies it found, and added '.old' to the existing '.ax' extention (*.ax.old).

• Windows XP will keep trying to replace the file, so you'll also have to rename a couple of .cab files that also contain that file. So, I had to also change the file extention to the SP1.cab & SP2.cab. I just added the letter 'x' to the *.cab extention (*.cabx). *

• I rebooted Windows into Safe Mode. I copied the file from "Method One" that can be found in the link posted in POST#24 into the C:\WINDOWS\system32 directory. Over-write the *.ax file if you hadn't already renamed it. Make sure the file has the 4/2/2005 file date.

• Reboot. Verify that the file in the C:\WINDOWS\system32 directory has the file date 4/2/2005. Then you should be good to go.

Current set up:

• ATI AIW X800XT

• Windows XP SP2

• Omega 3.8.221 drivers

• MMC 9.08

I can now digital capture from AIW input from my VCR

*You may want to undo this after you do your video capture. Win XP may need to get new system files or restore deleted/damaged system files from the SP2.cab file.

I'm not sure of the forum rules, so I was a little vague with the filename and such. As the file could be a hacked version. I also couldn't post any links yet in my posts.