Chris Roberts Space Garage Simulator: Star Citizen

[andino]

Concepts. Tons of concepts.

And people purchasing concepts.

Coming soon. Lawsuits.

[aviphysics]

I still think that ftl is the best game to come from a kickstarter. A game which I didn't back. Most of the higher budget titles have failed to impress.

It didn't get the press, but you should have been there to see all the backer controversies during FTL development. IIRC FTL also had substantial delays, but I don't remember anyone threatening law suits.

[aviphysics]

"The development of the game started in 2011 with building a demo on a modified version of the CryEngine 3 game engine,"

4 years.

3 years since crowdfunding was successful.

The work done before the kickstarter was a few guys just getting the concept work ready. I don't think it is at all fair to count that the same as the post Kickstarter development.

[logical]

The work done before the kickstarter was a few guys just getting the concept work ready. I don't think it is at all fair to count that the same as the post Kickstarter development.

I'd still count that time because they were fleshing out what they wanted to do, pinning down the game and started working on a demo. A lot of work is done in the planning stage. That means pre-kickstarter they already had a good idea of where they wanted to go. As soon as they got their money they should have hit the ground running.

[aviphysics]

Concepts. Tons of concepts.

And people purchasing concepts.

Coming soon. Lawsuits.

I may have missed a few things, but here is what is currently playable in Arena Commander.

Working Arena Commander Modes:

1. Racing
2. Death Match
3. Team Death Match
4. Capture The Flag
5. Vandul Swarm
6. Free Flight: This might seem like a non-mode, but it has been really useful for developing emergent gameplay and practicing/experimenting with teammates.

Flyable Ships and variants:

1. 300 Series: 300I, 315P, 325A, 350R
2. Aurora: ES, LX, MR, CL, LN
3. Avenger
4. Cutlass
5. Gladiator
6. Gladius
7. Glaive
8. Hornet: Civilian, Ghost, Tracker, Super
9. M50
10. Mustang: Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, Omega
11. P-52 Merlin
12. Scythe

Maps

1. 3 racing courses
2. 2 for Death Match, Team Death Match, Vandul Swarm and Free Flight
3. 2 for Capture the flag (really variants of Death Match maps)

Weapons
16 guns ranging across 3 sizes and a few additional ship specific guns. Types include ballistic, energy, and distortion. Differing weapons offer varying firing rates, velocity, range, damage and damage type.

Hardpoints can be fitted with gimbals at the cost of weapon size.

7 Missiles (plus a few ship specific missiles) with varying sizes maneuverability, duration and lock types. Lock on types include IR, EM, and Cross Section, which vary in effectiveness between ships and depending on angle of attack. For example, the hot engines of the 350R make IR missiles tough to shake. Counter measure include Flare and Chaff.

Edit: I forgot shield variants, for which there are anti splash and anti direct fire versions for each size. Sizes range from 1 to 4.

[aviphysics]

I'd still count that time because they were fleshing out what they wanted to do, pinning down the game and started working on a demo. A lot of work is done in the planning stage. That means pre-kickstarter they already had a good idea of where they wanted to go. As soon as they got their money they should have hit the ground running.

I think there is a valid argument to be made that it would have been better to retain the original scope for the first release and expand from there. I am not going to argue against that point.

[Eisberg]

Man it's been 3 years already, crap what happened to all that time

I know right. We are still waiting for that other group who was making a space sim using Cryengine 3, apparently it isn't easy.

[nutcrackr]

I may have missed a few things, but here is what is currently playable in Arena Commander.

snip

Thanks for this. Wish there was a decent breakdown of what is currently "finished" and playable on the site.

It seems they do have a few ships made already, and that appears to be the a heavy focus in terms of content.

It's worth nothing that the longest fight ready ship is 31m (glaive I think) and many of their newer concepts are much larger. Endeavor is 200m (just announced). Reclaimer is 158m, Carrack is 123m. These could take quite a long time to build in comparison to the smaller fighters if the quality is the same and the interiors are detailed.

Cargo ships are also very long (385m!), but I assume much easier to create due to duplication of the cargo bays.

I will most likely try the game when they finish the FPS module, then I can get a better picture of what is going on. For now I'll reserve jumping to conclusions and see what the next few months bring.

[bittermann]

Holy crap, DS just doubled down...this is going to be better than the actual game!

http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/10/st...n-the-endgame/

[nutcrackr]

Yeah his blog is a entertaining read. He's still pursuing legal action but is building a case and waiting to see what the Nov 2015 deadline brings.

Here is a list of things he things will be at CitizenCon (funny name considering)

• They are going to parade all the A-List actors – all of whom cost a ton of money – for SQ42. This despite the fact that the stand-alone game is reported to be almost fifteen months away from completion.
• They are going to show the opening cut-scene sequence for SQ42 with Gary Oldman giving his speech, someone flying and landing, NPCs waving etc.
• They are going to show Star Marine. Again. It’s still a mess – and nowhere ready for production release. Reports tell me that if it gets released before year end, it would be a miracle.
• They are going to show multi-crew. Again. Problem now is that, as of the last report I got, it doesn’t run smoothly at all. And so they are now running the demo on super computers with 16 cores, loads of memory etc. Again, not production release ready.
• There is nothing new being released to backers, other than another AC patch apparently.

Gary Oldman is pretty huge, he can't be cheap.

[aviphysics]

Thanks for this. Wish there was a decent breakdown of what is currently "finished" and playable on the site.

The lack of updates to this sort of information is kind of annoying, but there is also a lot of information available from community members. Right now you have to be somewhat willing to look around for the most current information.

It seems they do have a few ships made already, and that appears to be the a heavy focus in terms of content.

It's worth nothing that the longest fight ready ship is 31m (glaive I think) and many of their newer concepts are much larger. Endeavor is 200m (just announced). Reclaimer is 158m, Carrack is 123m. These could take quite a long time to build in comparison to the smaller fighters if the quality is the same and the interiors are detailed.

Thus far, Arena Commander has been serving as a test bed for getting the basic engine and backend working and figuring out the flight mechanics.

I believe the largest ship currently flyable is the Cutlass (29m). It is technically a multi crew ship and it is possible for a turret operator to get into its second seat (tricky to do outside of freeflight), but the turret interface is really rough right now.

For larger ships, there has been two things that they have needed to finish before they are playable.
1) The software to handle the localized physics necessary to allow people to navigate around multi-crew ships in flight.
2) The software for handling characters running around and interacting with stuff.
Both of these were demonstrated in the GamesCom demo, so they seem to be making progress. One can just hope that it won't take too much longer.

The focus for modeling larger ships has been on getting stuff ready for Squadron 42. A lot of this has not been public facing, though some unfinished models were leaked earlier this year.

The Retaliator (70.5m) is currently the largest ship that can be viewed in the Hangar; however, it and several other "hangar ready" ships are getting a second pass (i.e. the model isn't really finished).

They also need to do some rework on some of the older flyable ships, to bring their damage models into the new system. It used to be that they individually modeled each damage state for each part (along with all the LOD states). The new system dynamically applies damage to the ship, which saves a lot of work on modeling ships and requires less resources for the computer running the game.

Cargo ships are also very long (385m!), but I assume much easier to create due to duplication of the cargo bays.

Right now the best example of their large scale work can be seen by exploring the ARC Corp map. You can find youtube videos that show off the scope and detail (I thought it was pretty cool, though it is currently little more than eye candy.)

It will be interesting to see how they do the larger ships. They have talked about the methods they are doing to handle this, but it isn't stuff I recall off the top of my head. IIRC, one of the things they are doing is making heavy use of materials and object libraries to reduce the work for texture artists and modelers.

I will most likely try the game when they finish the FPS module, then I can get a better picture of what is going on. For now I'll reserve jumping to conclusions and see what the next few months bring.

It looks like they are at the tail end of getting a release ready. Unfortunately, they recently announced that jukes aren't going to make it into the first release (basically applying the principle of momentum to changing directions in the FPS module along with the corresponding animations). My hope is that means that everything else is almost ready and they just didn't want to hold up the release for just one feature.

CitizenCon is later this week, which one hopes will bring some more information. I would hope for release dates but, IME, those are bad luck.

[aviphysics]

Holy crap, DS just doubled down...this is going to be better than the actual game!

http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/10/st...n-the-endgame/

Off to look for a repost of this somewhere so I don't have to give him the satisfaction of a click through.

Edit: here is an archived link to the article. https://archive.is/fM9e8
Edit 2: Finished reading the post and the one thing I took away is that DS referred the sources to journalists, even though the Escapist claims their information did not come through DS. It was otherwise a giant wall of text that really didn't say a lot. TLDR version: He says "CR and Sandi are evil, their cofounder is incompetent, the project is dead and he still plans to continue with legal action."

Yeah his blog is a entertaining read. He's still pursuing legal action but is building a case and waiting to see what the Nov 2015 deadline brings.
Here is a list of things he things will be at CitizenCon (funny name considering)

• They are going to parade all the A-List actors – all of whom cost a ton of money – for SQ42. This despite the fact that the stand-alone game is reported to be almost fifteen months away from completion.
• They are going to show the opening cut-scene sequence for SQ42 with Gary Oldman giving his speech, someone flying and landing, NPCs waving etc.
• They are going to show Star Marine. Again. It’s still a mess – and nowhere ready for production release. Reports tell me that if it gets released before year end, it would be a miracle.
• They are going to show multi-crew. Again. Problem now is that, as of the last report I got, it doesn’t run smoothly at all. And so they are now running the demo on super computers with 16 cores, loads of memory etc. Again, not production release ready.
• There is nothing new being released to backers, other than another AC patch apparently.

Gary Oldman is pretty huge, he can't be cheap.

As you posted it, I think that list of what they will show will be somewhat accurate, but I would take the color commentary with more than a grain of salt.

One of the trends I have noticed is that DS likes to marry nuggets of truth with exaggeration, hyperbole and just outright BS.

BTW, here is a nice example of what DS knows about marketing :P

http://i.imgur.com/8cbuvAu.jpg

BTW2: While I was taking time to check out Reddit on this, ran across this delightful tweet exchange where the Escapist journalist admits that the supposed ID was really just a commonly available security card with no identifying information ( https://twitter.com/lizzyf620/status/650617503450841088 ). If you dig through the reply chains, someone also gives an example of how easy it is to forge paystubs.

[Woodgypsy]

It didn't get the press, but you should have been there to see all the backer controversies during FTL development. IIRC FTL also had substantial delays, but I don't remember anyone threatening law suits.

2 men team can work on the project on their free time, even if the initial funds run out. CIG? Good luck with that.

Logical, I think you are being unreasonable. They have only been in deveopment for a little over 2 years, what they are trying to make is obvisiouly going to take longer than that.

And no, this is all happening because of Derek Smart the troll because of his jealousy that has lasted for 20 or more years. If Derek Smart has not started this nobody would care.

Derek is a master troll -- in fact, he is much better at being a troll than CR is at being a business manager, clearly -- and a master troll would not jump in the fray if he did not smell the blood. And SC had been leaking blood all over the place, ever since they started adding these nonsensical, hyperbolic stretch goals which have nothing to do with their core game play (assuming there still is such a thing!). When CIG went that route, I figured that the likelihood of this game becoming successful is about as good as "Mars One" project. Actually, I think these two projects are quite similar, though at least MO does not run Ponzi scheme-like business model, AFIAK.

Thanks for this. Wish there was a decent breakdown of what is currently "finished" and playable on the site.

It seems they do have a few ships made already, and that appears to be the a heavy focus in terms of content.

It's worth nothing that the longest fight ready ship is 31m (glaive I think) and many of their newer concepts are much larger. Endeavor is 200m (just announced). Reclaimer is 158m, Carrack is 123m. These could take quite a long time to build in comparison to the smaller fighters if the quality is the same and the interiors are detailed.

Cargo ships are also very long (385m!), but I assume much easier to create due to duplication of the cargo bays.

I will most likely try the game when they finish the FPS module, then I can get a better picture of what is going on. For now I'll reserve jumping to conclusions and see what the next few months bring.

Selling all these contents before they have clear idea about how these content will be implemented into the game (or, even worse, before knowing if they can be implemented) is a terrible idea, since it will restrict their options for game design. They now have to add their 200m ships no matter what! But then, I am pretty sure CR stopped caring about game design long time ago.

Yeah his blog is a entertaining read. He's still pursuing legal action but is building a case and waiting to see what the Nov 2015 deadline brings.

Here is a list of things he things will be at CitizenCon (funny name considering)

• They are going to parade all the A-List actors – all of whom cost a ton of money – for SQ42. This despite the fact that the stand-alone game is reported to be almost fifteen months away from completion.
• They are going to show the opening cut-scene sequence for SQ42 with Gary Oldman giving his speech, someone flying and landing, NPCs waving etc.
• They are going to show Star Marine. Again. It’s still a mess – and nowhere ready for production release. Reports tell me that if it gets released before year end, it would be a miracle.
• They are going to show multi-crew. Again. Problem now is that, as of the last report I got, it doesn’t run smoothly at all. And so they are now running the demo on super computers with 16 cores, loads of memory etc. Again, not production release ready.
• There is nothing new being released to backers, other than another AC patch apparently.

Gary Oldman is pretty huge, he can't be cheap.

In other words, many expensive "features" which, with the exception of multi-crew ships, add nothing to the core game play. But then, the use of celebrities is a standard trick to draw the attention of the media when there is nothing substantial to show.

[aviphysics]

If anyone likes reading a dramatic series of events on the escapist article source debacle.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3n6lum/escapist_anonymous_sources_uncovered/

[aviphysics]

In other words, many expensive "features" which, with the exception of multi-crew ships, add nothing to the core game play. But then, the use of celebrities is a standard trick to draw the attention of the media when there is nothing substantial to show.

Not convinced that the voice acting comes anywhere close to their major expense. It was also one of the earliest stretch goals, so at this point the vast majority of backers contributed with this already a promised feature.

BTW, Audio fidelity is just as important as graphical fidelity. There is a reason the Batman games hired Mark Hamill instead of Joe Blow.

[andino]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2015/10/04/star-citizen-developer-threatens-lawsuit-against-the-escapist-demands-apology-and-retraction/

A decent read.

[aviphysics]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasoneva...nd-retraction/

A decent read.

Hardly comprehensive coverage. Appears to cherry pick information and doesn't hardly discuss the causes for doubt of the veracity of the Escapist report by the SC community.

For example, the Forbes "Reviews and Opinions" contributor cites "vetted by legal" as though that is the normal procedure for vetting sources. Real reporters have clarified that the only function legal serves is to advice the reporter on whether or not the content will expose them to a lawsuit. It is the reporter's personally responsibility to vet the sources and the procedures the reporter has outlined don't seem adequate (as users on reddit have repeatedly demonstrated how easy it would be to forge/misrepresent the documents she describes as being proof of employment by CIG)

If you want worthwhile reading that covers all the angles, you are just going to have to dive a little deeper.

[andino]

You know, I really don't care.

I don't really have a dog in the fight because I didn't buy into anything.

I'm following it because of the fact that it is a mega kick starter that is somewhat floundering right now.

The drama is just that, drama. The actions, positioning, and words of the people involved are what should be looked at.

Also, I really could care less about what some random internet person on reddit says about so and so or can fake so and so. There are reasons why people are internet experts on reddit and not, you know, experts at actual jobs. But hey, everything on the internet is real, right?

[Woodgypsy]

Not convinced that the voice acting comes anywhere close to their major expense. It was also one of the earliest stretch goals, so at this point the vast majority of backers contributed with this already a promised feature.

BTW, Audio fidelity is just as important as graphical fidelity. There is a reason the Batman games hired Mark Hamill instead of Joe Blow.

Mark Hammil today is much more of a professional voice actor than an A-list celebrity. Sure, it may be worthwhile to have someone like Hammil or Jennifer Hale if you have budget for it. The actual A-list Hollywood celebrities like Oldman are the entirely different business. Their job is to provide their name (for the astronomical money) to give a movie "AAA credential"; it makes some sense for movies, because media exposures and public perception of a movie largely depends on its actors (only movie fanatics care about directors, unless we are talking about star directors like Talantino). So far, it has been shown that the gamers do not care much about having A-list Hollywood celebrities in their games. We know that Roberts loves the idea of producing a Hollywood movie, but it is not a good way to spend money when it comes to video games.

Hardly comprehensive coverage. Appears to cherry pick information and doesn't hardly discuss the causes for doubt of the veracity of the Escapist report by the SC community.

For example, the Forbes "Reviews and Opinions" contributor cites "vetted by legal" as though that is the normal procedure for vetting sources. Real reporters have clarified that the only function legal serves is to advice the reporter on whether or not the content will expose them to a lawsuit. It is the reporter's personally responsibility to vet the sources and the procedures the reporter has outlined don't seem adequate (as users on reddit have repeatedly demonstrated how easy it would be to forge/misrepresent the documents she describes as being proof of employment by CIG)

If you want worthwhile reading that covers all the angles, you are just going to have to dive a little deeper.

The original comment by the Escapist does not say anything about "vetting by legal department". That being said, many of the "doubts" do not have much substance, neither. They pretty much center around "but the sources are annonymous!" -- this is a non-issue; this type of journalism would be impossible without sufficient protection of sources. The best (and the only) way for CIG is to show the evidence which is contrary to the Escapist article. In this case it is not that difficult -- they just need to show the meaningful progress (much like how Ms. Obokata only had to show working STAP cells). The fact that they are unwilling or incapable of doing so does not give any credence to CIG's position.

By the way, the same reasoning applies for any situations where someone makes an extraordinary claim (and capitalizes on this claim), then criticize those who are critical of them -- be it cold fusion, STAP cells, 9/11 conspiracy theory, whatever. Those who are making an extraordinary claim is the one who must provide the evidence. CR/CIG is making very extraordinary claims about the game he is making. The crux of the argument made by the critics of CIG is that it does not seem like the game is progressing at the reasonable pace. All they need to do is to show the meaningful progress....

But then, I wouldn't be surprised if the spaceships in Star Citizen operate by cold fusion.

You know, I really don't care.

I don't really have a dog in the fight because I didn't buy into anything.

I'm following it because of the fact that it is a mega kick starter that is somewhat floundering right now.

The drama is just that, drama. The actions, positioning, and words of the people involved are what should be looked at.

Also, I really could care less about what some random internet person on reddit says about so and so or can fake so and so. There are reasons why people are internet experts on reddit and not, you know, experts at actual jobs. But hey, everything on the internet is real, right?

I did not back it neither -- this project had all the warning signs, to be honest -- and I agree that I am mostly in this for the drama. However, I do have some professional interests in organizational malfeasance. For me, this is a drama which combines one of my hobbies with one of my professional interests; now with an A-list master troll and the army of Ponzi scheme victims (who still wish to keep believing).

[Eisberg]

Mark Hammil today is much more of a professional voice actor than an A-list celebrity. Sure, it may be worthwhile to have someone like Hammil or Jennifer Hale if you have budget for it. The actual A-list Hollywood celebrities like Oldman are the entirely different business. Their job is to provide their name (for the astronomical money) to give a movie "AAA credential"; it makes some sense for movies, because media exposures and public perception of a movie largely depends on its actors (only movie fanatics care about directors, unless we are talking about star directors like Talantino). So far, it has been shown that the gamers do not care much about having A-list Hollywood celebrities in their games. We know that Roberts loves the idea of producing a Hollywood movie, but it is not a good way to spend money when it comes to video games.



The original comment by the Escapist does not say anything about "vetting by legal department". That being said, many of the "doubts" do not have much substance, neither. They pretty much center around "but the sources are annonymous!" -- this is a non-issue; this type of journalism would be impossible without sufficient protection of sources. The best (and the only) way for CIG is to show the evidence which is contrary to the Escapist article. In this case it is not that difficult -- they just need to show the meaningful progress (much like how Ms. Obokata only had to show working STAP cells). The fact that they are unwilling or incapable of doing so does not give any credence to CIG's position.

By the way, the same reasoning applies for any situations where someone makes an extraordinary claim (and capitalizes on this claim), then criticize those who are critical of them -- be it cold fusion, STAP cells, 9/11 conspiracy theory, whatever. Those who are making an extraordinary claim is the one who must provide the evidence. CR/CIG is making very extraordinary claims about the game he is making. The crux of the argument made by the critics of CIG is that it does not seem like the game is progressing at the reasonable pace. All they need to do is to show the meaningful progress....

But then, I wouldn't be surprised if the spaceships in Star Citizen operate by cold fusion.




I did not back it neither -- this project had all the warning signs, to be honest -- and I agree that I am mostly in this for the drama. However, I do have some professional interests in organizational malfeasance. For me, this is a drama which combines one of my hobbies with one of my professional interests; now with an A-list master troll and the army of Ponzi scheme victims (who still wish to keep believing).

The article from Escapists is the one making extraordinary claims, even down to accusing of CIG breaking Federal/State laws. The burden of proof is on the Escapists, and they have not proven anything.

[Arrowhead]

Time will tell who is right either way. Just sit tight.

[badboy]

Time will tell who is right either way. Just sit tight.

but people want stuff now!

The whole world has turned into babies...
Mommy I want the ice cream now!
You'll get it after dinner
YOU SUCK MOMMY AND I HATE YOU!

[SoCalMX70]

The article from Escapists is the one making extraordinary claims, even down to accusing of CIG breaking Federal/State laws. The burden of proof is on the Escapists, and they have not proven anything.

This. A lot of people seem to think that it is on Chris Roberts and Co. to prove something. Nope, the accuser has to provide the proof.

As far as the potential lawsuit coming from CIG, well, if the Escapist can't provide substantial proof to their defamatory claims toward CIG, they can lose... It will take years though.

[Mangler]

What is Derek Smarts real job?

Making broken games that no one buys will not pay the bills, so he must have an alternate revenue stream.

[logical]

What is Derek Smarts real job?

Making broken games that no one buys will not pay the bills, so he must have an alternate revenue stream.

No one knows or cares. But what we know what Chris Roberts job is and it seems he isnt getting it done.

[SoCalMX70]

No one knows or cares. But what we know what Chris Roberts job is and it seems he isnt getting it done.

"Seems". There's still no proof of that.

Should a backer be weary? Damn straight. All the delays, constant vanity (ship) releases and limited real content, etc. Still, that doesn't necessarily mean their company of 261 employees isn't busting their asses trying to make a full game come to reality.

IMO, if this game comes out 2 years from now and delivers even on 50% of the promises, I would consider that quite an accomplishment... and I would buy it. However, that would still be considered a failure on Chris Robert's part. It just "feels" like what they are trying to accomplish is unattainable in any short period of time. I would venture to guess another 5 years to see 100% of the goals achieved.

Also, (if this isn't obviously apparent) Derek Smart is a jackass. I actually allowed myself to read his blogs and some of his twitter posts last night... WOW, this guy really thinks highly of himself. Total arrogant prick and a complete blowhard.

[Mangler]

One have to wonder if they have anywhere near enough money and staff to make the MMO portion of SC.

I mean, games like KOTOR had a staff of 800 people and a budget close to 200 million dollars, and it still took 6 years to make that game.

[logical]

"Seems". There's still no proof of that.

The proof is what is playable.

[SoCalMX70]

The proof is what is playable.

Ok, then he isn't getting it done timely.

[Woodgypsy]

The article from Escapists is the one making extraordinary claims, even down to accusing of CIG breaking Federal/State laws. The burden of proof is on the Escapists, and they have not proven anything.

Smart's blog posts? Sure. But the Escapists article is pretty tame, if anything; the most extraordinary part of the article is the infamous "not hiring a black girl" part, which the author does not state it as a fact. Actually, its attitude is similar to that of NYT's recent attack on Amazon -- of course, quality of Escapists' writing is far, far worse.

This. A lot of people seem to think that it is on Chris Roberts and Co. to prove something. Nope, the accuser has to provide the proof.

As far as the potential lawsuit coming from CIG, well, if the Escapist can't provide substantial proof to their defamatory claims toward CIG, they can lose... It will take years though.

Ehhh, no. The standard required in suing for defamation is relatively high, as long as an article deals with a matter of public interest (with all the crowdfunded money, it sure is) -- which, of course, is a good thing for the freedom of speech. For suing for defamation, they also have to release their financial information; somehow, I don't think they want to do that.

I also have to assert that CIG's business model is highly exploitative (and fraudulent, insofar as they have no realistic projection for the release of the final product), which is deserving of criticisms in itself. Sure, no one is forced to "crowdfund" CIG -- but that should not shield them from criticisms, as with the case of other frauds.

To be honest, I think CIG going bust will be a good thing for crowdfunding in the long run, much like how the Mt.Gox fiasco helped cleaning up the BitCoin ecosystem. The current crowdfunding system has many issues, and can really use a big wake up call. This will do it.

[logical]

Ok, then he isn't getting it done timely.

And thats an issue, especially when he is the one who has set the timelines for the game. If you're pushing your deadlines back multiple times there is something wrong.

[Eisberg]

One have to wonder if they have anywhere near enough money and staff to make the MMO portion of SC.

I mean, games like KOTOR had a staff of 800 people and a budget close to 200 million dollars, and it still took 6 years to make that game.

They can release Squadron 42 when it is ready and that can give them more income for Star Citizen. Squadron 42 and Star Citizen doesn't need to come out at the same time and I highly doubt it will.

[SoCalMX70]

Ehhh, no. The standard required in suing for defamation is relatively high, as long as an article deals with a matter of public interest (with all the crowdfunded money, it sure is) -- which, of course, is a good thing for the freedom of speech. For suing for defamation, they also have to release their financial information; somehow, I don't think they want to do that.

I also have to assert that CIG's business model is highly exploitative (and fraudulent, insofar as they have no realistic projection for the release of the final product), which is deserving of criticisms in itself. Sure, no one is forced to "crowdfund" CIG -- but that should not shield them from criticisms, as with the case of other frauds.

To be honest, I think CIG going bust will be a good thing for crowdfunding in the long run, much like how the Mt.Gox fiasco helped cleaning up the BitCoin ecosystem. The current crowdfunding system has many issues, and can really use a big wake up call. This will do it.

Well, I am in no way stating that such a lawsuit would be a slam dunk. I guess we will find out what happens though. CIG gave The Escapist an ultimatum and was met with a "kiss my ass" response. Why would CIG make such a threat if they are not prepared to go all the way? Also, again The Escapist has made defamatory claims with what seems to be zero proof, and only anonymous sources? 3 of which are proven to be bullshit already? Also, the non-existent ID cards? Does ANYTHING in the article actually add up at this point?

Most worrisome for anyone backing this game has to be where a lawsuit takes CIG's priorities. Where does the money for their lawyers come from? It would seem to be a rather convenient excuse for further delay, wouldn't it?

EDIT: And just to be 100% clear, as I know I can go on tangents, I am not on either side of this. I am not blind to the fact that CIG is obviously struggling here. Are they struggling to the point where they are out of money and the game will never see the light of day? Yes. No. I don't know. How the hell would I know? How could ANYONE know that besides the guys at the very top of CIG's payroll? Right now it's just a shitstorm of supposed hearsay and false accusations.

[bittermann]

Actually from what I understand a couple of the anonymous sources from the article are willing to come forward and give a legal deposition. Maybe ex employees?

[SoCalMX70]

They can release Squadron 42 when it is ready and that can give them more income for Star Citizen. Squadron 42 and Star Citizen doesn't need to come out at the same time and I highly doubt it will.

From what I've heard that has been the plan all along. Release 42 as a standalone "Campaign" type game, keep working on the persistant universe, which would be released in "modules".

[SoCalMX70]

Actually from what I understand a couple of the anonymous sources from the article are willing to come forward and give a legal deposition. Maybe ex employees?

Interesting. I'll have to catch up on the news a bit later. This is all unraveling rather quick!

[nutcrackr]

What DS and others have said, is that the letter from Ortwin was basically a scare tactic to get The Escapists to remove the content immediately. It would not be in their best interest to take legal action for numerous reasons.

That doesn't mean they won't, they might pick out a few of the things, rather than every point raised.

I thought Ortwin and Chirs's letters were quite unprofessional. Many SC fans seem to think they were awesome and "owned" the "haters"

I forsee a stalemate for many months / years.

[Woodgypsy]

EDIT: And just to be 100% clear, as I know I can go on tangents, I am not on either side of this. I am not blind to the fact that CIG is obviously struggling here. Are they struggling to the point where they are out of money and the game will never see the light of day? Yes. No. I don't know. How the hell would I know? How could ANYONE know that besides the guys at the very top of CIG's payroll? Right now it's just a shitstorm of supposed hearsay and false accusations.

You know, this is the main problem of crowdfunding today. If someone is allowed to make millions of funding only with the promise of future products, there must be ways to keep them accountable. For stocks and bonds, the rules (however imperfect they are) to ensure so were established after many trainwrecks -- and crowdfunding needs similar rules, too. While the lack of transparency might be unavoidable for small hobbyist operations, it simply is unacceptable for projects with millions of funding.

[Arrowhead]

Welp, I finally made an order for the Mustang Alpha starter pack because there are worse things I could have wasted my money on.

Either I'll get in on an awesome spacesim one day, or be a part of history when the shitstorm starts. I really do want to see SC succeed because it could be solid even if it doesn't live up to everyone's expectations, though I am still very skeptical.

[aviphysics]

Mark Hammil today is much more of a professional voice actor than an A-list celebrity. Sure, it may be worthwhile to have someone like Hammil or Jennifer Hale if you have budget for it. The actual A-list Hollywood celebrities like Oldman are the entirely different business. Their job is to provide their name (for the astronomical money) to give a movie "AAA credential"; it makes some sense for movies, because media exposures and public perception of a movie largely depends on its actors (only movie fanatics care about directors, unless we are talking about star directors like Talantino). So far, it has been shown that the gamers do not care much about having A-list Hollywood celebrities in their games. We know that Roberts loves the idea of producing a Hollywood movie, but it is not a good way to spend money when it comes to video games.

Let's wait and see who the actual voice talent will be. BTW, it isn't just a matter of voice, as they also did performance capture work.

The original comment by the Escapist does not say anything about "vetting by legal department". That being said, many of the "doubts" do not have much substance, neither. They pretty much center around "but the sources are annonymous!" -- this is a non-issue; this type of journalism would be impossible without sufficient protection of sources. The best (and the only) way for CIG is to show the evidence which is contrary to the Escapist article. In this case it is not that difficult -- they just need to show the meaningful progress (much like how Ms. Obokata only had to show working STAP cells). The fact that they are unwilling or incapable of doing so does not give any credence to CIG's position.

I think they must have edited "vetted by legal" out of the original Escpaist article, as I pretty clearly remembered the phrase from before the Forbes article. Sorry that I don't have proof of that. It was one of the major things that stunk of BS when I first read the article. Regardless, you can read the authors less than thorough vetting process here. It would take me less than a couple hours to set up a linkedin account and a few other fake sources for anyone to check my fake identity against. The HID security card is commonly available and does not identify who you are or whom you worked for. Pay stubs are easily forged. Anonymous sources are supposed to be anonymous to the public, not anonymous to the author.

If their accusations were real and provable, they should have brought them to a credible investigative journalist that would have the reputation to be believed while not spilling the identity of their sources. The fact that no real investigative journalist was willing to take the accusations of illegal and vulgar conduct by the heads of the worlds largest crowd funding project says something.

By the way, the same reasoning applies for any situations where someone makes an extraordinary claim (and capitalizes on this claim), then criticize those who are critical of them -- be it cold fusion, STAP cells, 9/11 conspiracy theory, whatever. Those who are making an extraordinary claim is the one who must provide the evidence. CR/CIG is making very extraordinary claims about the game he is making. The crux of the argument made by the critics of CIG is that it does not seem like the game is progressing at the reasonable pace. All they need to do is to show the meaningful progress....

But then, I wouldn't be surprised if the spaceships in Star Citizen operate by cold fusion.

I think you got it backwards. CIG has promised a lot (maybe too much), but they aren't accusing people of illegal behavior. I live in a country where people are innocent until proven guilty. That means the burden of proof lies with the accuser (i.e. the Escapist.)

I did not back it neither -- this project had all the warning signs, to be honest -- and I agree that I am mostly in this for the drama. However, I do have some professional interests in organizational malfeasance. For me, this is a drama which combines one of my hobbies with one of my professional interests; now with an A-list master troll and the army of Ponzi scheme victims (who still wish to keep believing).

It must be the worst run Ponzi scheme ever, as he is pretty clearly spending the money on developers. Normally the person running a Ponzi scheme would try to hold onto a much larger portion of the money for their own personal gain.