THE ULTIMATE 64bit vs 32bit vs XP vs VISTA thread!!!!

[moshpit]

Nothing unexpected here, same one eyed dribble wrapped in insult, gee I wish I was as mature as mosh. ROFL.

Don't hurt yourself wishing too hard, might strain that last good brain cell

[Anth Seebel]

Talk to someone who actually believes your crap. Enuff said.

[moshpit]

Talk to someone who actually believes your crap. Enuff said.

THAT was a comeback?

[Anth Seebel]

I know better than to get in a forum reply contest with a troll.

[Crisler]

This is really off topic but what the hell. Mosh have you noticed how easy it is to pick out the people who think they are gurus because mommy and daddy bought them a system?

They are argue a point with personal insults and duck direct questions. They talk about others maturity and then spend their time putting in posts that sound more like a three year old bully at the daycare.

For those that want to argue here, you need to understand something, we never all agree. For any one person to think they have ALL the answer for computers, is to make that person a FOOL.

You have basically four kinds of people that post here.

1) Old School Tech that has been around the industry FOREVER and is more worried about stable performance that does exactly what he wants than about saying he has the biggest and the baddest.

2) The young tech that is coming up strong and still learning the ropes but has a solid grasp. Is fascinated with having the biggest and baddest and does not stop until he does.

3) The neophyte that is here to learn and grow beyond their current knowledge. They know their limitation and want to learn more.

4) The want to be guru. The kids that think they have all the answers because of thier vast experience on one or two computers and the fact they read forums. Frown on the opions of anyone that does not agree with their point of view.

I think I can safely say that Mosh and I fit in the first category. Oh I know Mosh is a pain in the butt, as others have said I am. I know he can get crass but he is passionate. He and I have disagreed a lot and agreed a lot as well. But one thing I can tell you is that he only goes on the offensive when a person puts him there by not backing up their opinion with a reaasonable arguement.

So those seeking to directly attack others here, shut the crap up, get out of your diapers, leave your mommies basement and go enjoy life.

RANT off...

To the admins I offer my sincere apologises for my rant, sometimes old age makes the brain sick of stupidity. I will accept any disciplinary action this post requires.

[caveman-jim]

where do you see da caveman?

I think there's actually category 5 - the nooblet. lurks and doesn't post except to repeat what someone else said, that they think is cool - trying to 'tech meme'. responsible for the 'nehalem imc ' and 'ms should do dx10 on xp' level posts.

[Gandalfthewhite]

you also forgot mod/admin trys to get people to stop being tards fails and then bans the lot of them

[moshpit]

This is really off topic but what the hell. Mosh have you noticed how easy it is to pick out the people who think they are gurus because mommy and daddy bought them a system?

They are argue a point with personal insults and duck direct questions. They talk about others maturity and then spend their time putting in posts that sound more like a three year old bully at the daycare.

For those that want to argue here, you need to understand something, we never all agree. For any one person to think they have ALL the answer for computers, is to make that person a FOOL.

You have basically four kinds of people that post here.

1) Old School Tech that has been around the industry FOREVER and is more worried about stable performance that does exactly what he wants than about saying he has the biggest and the baddest.

2) The young tech that is coming up strong and still learning the ropes but has a solid grasp. Is fascinated with having the biggest and baddest and does not stop until he does.

3) The neophyte that is here to learn and grow beyond their current knowledge. They know their limitation and want to learn more.

4) The want to be guru. The kids that think they have all the answers because of thier vast experience on one or two computers and the fact they read forums. Frown on the opions of anyone that does not agree with their point of view.

I think I can safely say that Mosh and I fit in the first category. Oh I know Mosh is a pain in the butt, as others have said I am. I know he can get crass but he is passionate. He and I have disagreed a lot and agreed a lot as well. But one thing I can tell you is that he only goes on the offensive when a person puts him there by not backing up their opinion with a reaasonable arguement.

So those seeking to directly attack others here, shut the crap up, get out of your diapers, leave your mommies basement and go enjoy life.

RANT off...

To the admins I offer my sincere apologises for my rant, sometimes old age makes the brain sick of stupidity. I will accept any disciplinary action this post requires.

Thank you, bro! That was truly kind to say, and I think very accurate. I often go on the offensive when offended by the lack of evidence often provided with FUD based posting that some folks think is the cool thing to do. I could give a crap less about looking cool, hence why I haven't jumped on the "Hate Vista" bandwagon. When ME was out and I was using it, I had no problems telling the world what crap it was even while I was having a good personal experience with it. But then I don't base my recommendations on just how my experience has gone, but on the trends I see with it in the support environment. With ME, support was a constant issue of "Sorry, we cannot fix that behavior, BSODs are common with this OS" versus Vista with "Well, why DID you think that ancient printer was going to work on a new OS? Did your Win9x stuff work with XP when it came out? There ya go then..."

[Jokerzwild]

where do you see da caveman?

I think there's actually category 5 - the nooblet. lurks and doesn't post except to repeat what someone else said, that they think is cool - trying to 'tech meme'. responsible for the 'nehalem imc ' and 'ms should do dx10 on xp' level posts.

That's my category. nooblet's rock! .

[Medion]

Talk to someone who actually believes your crap. Enuff said.

Actually, everyone here, except you and Chris, believe his "crap." Both you and Chris are uninformed posters with the same communication style. I'd be willing to bet you're one and the same.

[traitoR]

I`ve been pretty heavy into computers since i bought my first 486 back in 92 or so, i`m certainly not as knowledgeable as some especially in niche areas but i don`t much care to argue with noobs, if you can`t get vista to run properly you maybe should do some learning, the OS pretty much holds your hand, i remember back in the day working in DOS exclusively, needing intimately more knowledge and still spending a great deal of time to get the proper boot configs for different games and programs. Makes me laugh to see all the whining really, like point and click is tough.

[Jokerzwild]

Actually, everyone here, except you and Chris, believe his "crap." Both you and Chris are uninformed posters with the same communication style. I'd be willing to bet you're one and the same.

I checked .

[moshpit]

I checked .

[gamefoo21]

I`ve been pretty heavy into computers since i bought my first 486 back in 92 or so, i`m certainly not as knowledgeable as some especially in niche areas but i don`t much care to argue with noobs, if you can`t get vista to run properly you maybe should do some learning, the OS pretty much holds your hand, i remember back in the day working in DOS exclusively, needing intimately more knowledge and still spending a great deal of time to get the proper boot configs for different games and programs. Makes me laugh to see all the whining really, like point and click is tough.

I miss those days... Memmaker how you would always disapoint me by leaving me just that last couple of KB short.

[walterman]

Someone on the NVnews forums did some custom tests and noted that 32bit binaries under x64 can be up 25% slower. 32 vista & xp seem pretty much on par though aside increased memory usage.

Yes, it was me.

It was my BR2 perlin benchmark. A piece of code that i wrote in Assembler with SSE3 for my BR2 FSAA patch.

In the posts at nvnews, i was trying to show the differences between running 32bit code in a 32bit OS, and running 32bit code in a 64bit OS.

The difference was huge in my code, around a 25% in my quad.

But again, only a small group of users will care about the possible performance drop, so, please, do not continue the discussion here too.

[chadro]

Yes, it was me.

It was my BR2 perlin benchmark. A piece of code that i wrote in Assembler with SSE3 for my BR2 FSAA patch.

In the posts at nvnews, i was trying to show the differences between running 32bit code in a 32bit OS, and running 32bit code in a 64bit OS.

The difference was huge in my code, around a 25% in my quad.

But again, only a small group of users will care about the possible performance drop, so, please, do not continue the discussion here too.

im lost...sorta...so 32 code in a 32 bit OS is faster than 32 bit code in a 64 bit OS??

[moshpit]

im lost...sorta...so 32 code in a 32 bit OS is faster than 32 bit code in a 64 bit OS??

In worst case scenarios, yes. His is a worst case scenario.

[caveman-jim]

generally you write assembly code to optimize code for a specific architecture. running it on another architecture would obviously be detrimental. that's why runtime compilers such as .NET give more consistant results for cross-architecture compatibility and performance, albeit with an additional overhead.

[walterman]

It's the worst case, yes (computational heavy tasks).

At nvnews, i tried to explain it simply, but i failed.



In this pic you can see the working modes of a x64 CPU.

To run 32bit code under a 64bit OS, you need to switch the processor from '64bit long mode' to '64bit compatibility mode'. Obviously this needs some clock cycles. Once you have switched, the instructions need the same number of clock cycles to finish +-.

In the '64bit compatibility mode', you haven't access to the 16x general purpose 64bit registers or to the 16x SSE 128bit registers (8x GP 32bit, & 8x SSE). This means that native 64bit code has advantages, due to the higher number (& width) of the registers.

In the 64bit modes, the hardware task switching mechanism is disabled, so, the OS needs to create the data structures needed for the task switching. This means more overhead for the CPU when you need to switch from task.




In this pic you can see the virtual address translation mechanism used in x64.

A 32bit virtual address has 3 levels in x86, but, here, in x64, you have 2 extra levels. The CPU needs to translate virtual addresses to physical addresses before accessing to any data in the memory. With 3 levels, you need to read 2 entries from 2 page tables, and then apply the offset to that page. With 5 levels, you need to read 4 entries total. To avoid all these accesses to the memory, just to translate the virtual addresses, the CPUs use the TLBs, that are a special hardware mechanism that work like a cache of the 'translations' (see what happened to the performance of the Phenom due to the TLB bug). So, if you have more levels to translate, you are stressing the TLB more than in 32bit mode. A program with random memory accesses will stress the TLBs much more.

Also, you have WOW64, that translates the system calls from 32bit to 64bit.

My BR2 perlin benchmark makes a heavy use of the CPU, and it has a lot of random memory lookups (i used prefetch instructions to hide the memory latency). Some 32bit video compressors run slower under x64 too, not just my code.

All this info has been extracted from the AMD x64 System Programming manuals.

As historic reference, when MSDOS games started to use the 386 protected mode, the developers stated that this mode was slower than the '16bit real mode', due to the virtual address mechanism, but, it had advantages due to the virtual memory & access to the memory above the first MB of RAM (20bit addresses using 16bit real mode segmented addresses). But, some critical games at that time, like Comanche 1, used a special mode called '32bit flat mode', in which the CPU had access to the whole 32bit memory space, and no virtual memory translation was needed. This was year 1992. Today, the same story is happening again. There is a performance hit when we are moving to 64bit (in some cases), but, it's acceptable due to the advantages of the 64bit mode.

[caveman-jim]

that was nice and simple good job!

[Hidavi]

I will admit that 32-bit apps sometimes lag out a little when you start them on 64, but everything works great generally speaking.

[moshpit]

that was nice and simple good job!

Agreed.

[chadro]

shawweeet! so why isnt this thread stickied yet?

[Destroy]

http://www.dragonsteelmods.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8528&Itemid=39

XP SP3 vs Vista SP1

"As you can see from the comparisons at the level these benchmarks run, XP XP3 is clearly the better choice, but in the real world you'll never 'feel' the differences shown here."

[caveman-jim]

show me where XP SP3 can compete with Vista SP1 for Dx10 gaming

[gamefoo21]

Why is it that everytime Vista is a miniscule percent behind, he posts, "Vista lags behind." but everytime Vista inches ahead of XP, he puts "Miniscule difference, never notice it."

The tests are basically a tie, and only the OGL, seems to put XP ahead.

But eh, he's 'not' biased against Vista.

[Jokerzwild]

Well I finally went "XP free" on my personal pc. I still run XP MCE on my two other pc's but that's because I only have one Vista licence. But mine, which also happens to be the most powerful one in the house is only running Vista Ultimate.

Been running a dual boot for so long, I'm lovin' all this extra disk space!! Looks like I'm totally converted now .

[caveman-jim]

I only have 1 XP box left, my kids box. It's a shuttle SFF PC, has an Athlon XP 2500+ and 2Gb of RAM on it. Runs XP nicely; I did install Vista on it for a short while, but decided not to waste the license and XP is better for all their old games they play, like Freddie the Fish 2 and Lilo & Stitch.

[grog]

Simple logic

         if (memory_total > 4GB) {
                         if (GAME_REQUIRES_DX10){
                                          Go_Vista_64();
                         } else {
                                          Go_Windows_XP_64_or_Vista_64();
                         }
          } else {
                         if (GAME_REQUIRES_DX10){
                                          Go_Vista();
                         } else {
                                          Go_XP_or_Vista();
                         }
         }

[Hidavi]

if only it were that simple

[badboy]

http://www.dragonsteelmods.com/index...8528&Itemid=39

XP SP3 vs Vista SP1

"As you can see from the comparisons at the level these benchmarks run, XP XP3 is clearly the better choice, but in the real world you'll never 'feel' the differences shown here."

look at the comment

for same config hardware:
CPU: Pentium3-650MHz RAM: 1GB SDRAM-PC100 HDD: 40GB 10K RPM MB: Asus P3B GPU: nvidia GeForceTi 256
xp sp3 is really the winner :-)
vista release is'nt installable on this computer (very slow for install)
vista RC2 is installable and running well on same computer except slower.

vista is clearly modified for not run on PentiumIII-650MHz,
lobby of hardware/software background...but should work same speed. core was modified for unsupport it.

damn idiot

[Jokerzwild]

Well I finally went "XP free" on my personal pc. I still run XP MCE on my two other pc's but that's because I only have one Vista licence. But mine, which also happens to be the most powerful one in the house is only running Vista Ultimate.

Been running a dual boot for so long, I'm lovin' all this extra disk space!! Looks like I'm totally converted now .

So I reinstalled again tonight! Went 64-bit . I booted it up and *surprise* it's exactly the same as 32-bit. I expected a small to middling sized nerdgasm at least but I got nothing . No problems at least and now I can use my new 4gb of ram... that did give me a nerdgasm .

[Jokerzwild]

Ah ha! Vista 64 is already askin' for my nerd credentials! Had to figure out a remedy to get 3dmark 06 running. Luckily my creds were all in order .

[Hidavi]

3DMark06 ran fine on my Vx64...

[Jokerzwild]

Mine would hang up trying to find the OpenAL32 driver when I started it. First link on a Google search turned up the answer, had to download a new installer for OpenAL. You might have a newer 3dmark package with the new OpenAL driver in it or something you already had installed put the updated OpenAL driver on your pc. My 3dmark installer is pretty dang old, I mean it is v.110 but I dl'd it a pretty long time ago.

Edit: here http://futuremark.yougamers.com/foru...ad.php?t=43948

[Bobby_Star]

Xp 32bit is stil the king if you want a performance centric os. Vista still has way too many issues to recommend and by the time they are ironed out windows 7 will be here.

vista=ME

[moshpit]

Xp 32bit is stil the king if you want a performance centric os. Vista still has way too many issues to recommend and by the time they are ironed out windows 7 will be here.

vista=ME

You just lost any hope of credibility on this forum with those of us who actually work in this industry.

[Hidavi]

As an IT guy I wouldn't recommend Vista to any of my clients yet seeing as how God knows what problems they might encounter with their software. Of course, there are some programs that you already know would be borked on it, but its just easier to make them all stick with XP Pro for a while longer. I mean, its not like they're really missing out on anything to tell you the truth.

But for me, I love it.

[caveman-jim]

As an IT guy

rofl!

[Bobby_Star]

You just lost any hope of credibility on this forum with those of us who actually work in this industry.

lol I love how some people (fanboys) can get so defensive over a product in the face of their peers. I don't need your credibility and I am in "this industry"