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**Hidavi** · Jul 3, 2006, 06:16 AM

lululu, I have some apples...

**Cobra84** · Jul 3, 2006, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by Hidavi

Dude, maybe its because HD-DVD has been out for so much longer

I don't think its cumulative, its a daily rank.

**Hidavi** · Jul 3, 2006, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by Cobra84

I don't think its cumulative, its a daily rank.

errrr, my bad then.

EDIT: A blu-ray player not selling well? Oh man, I don't see a very good future for the PS3 at all right now if people aren't even that interested in Blu-Ray.

**Cobra84** · Jul 3, 2006, 07:22 AM

Here's some general stats from Amazon (movie sales and average prices).
http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm

Amazon player Sales comparison
http://www.amazon.com/gp/comparison/...000DZS0G8&bf=0

**Crazy Legs** · Jul 3, 2006, 07:22 AM

Another week, another Pro-HD-DVD, Anti-Blu-Ray thread by tranCendenZ. Dude, do you work for Toshiba or something?

Originally posted by Cobra84

I don't think its cumulative, its a daily rank.

That doesn't mean he's wrong. There is more awareness of HD-DVD right now because it's been out longer.

HD-DVD could have better image quality out of the gate, higher sales, and more consumer recognition and still lose the format war.

I'm waiting for the format war to be decided. If you want to potentially throw your money away by jumping on the lead horse, go nuts.

**Hidavi** · Jul 3, 2006, 07:31 AM

I'm not buying one until it goes sub $200.

**Takezo** · Jul 3, 2006, 09:26 AM

No one is going to buy a $1000 dollar movie player. HD-DVD is 300 to 400 dollars cheaper, but that's still too expensive

I think people are stupid to even get either one. Early adopters get screwed over big time. Just look at DVD. I remember when DVD first came out, it was really expensive, around $500. Today you can get decent DVD players for less than $50, with progressive scan and everything. If PS3 is a success, it will mean that everyone who owns a PS3 can play Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray movies sales will start to pick up. The only thing that can thwart that is Xbox 360's HD-DVD addon. However add-ons in videogame history usualy have very low acceptance (with the exception of Japan, MS's weakest market), and don't do that well.

Sony actualy has the advantage. They know they are late into the market, and don't really expect Blu-Ray to catch on, untill a while after PS3's launch.
Sony Pictures is another reason. Sony owns a lot of the major motion picture studios, which will make their movies Blu-Ray exclusive. Third reason is HD-DVD movies are not exclusive, they will also be released on Blu-Ray.

Sales this early in the game means nothing, but proves people just have lots of money to burn.

**Cobra84** · Jul 3, 2006, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Crazy Legs

Another week, another Pro-HD-DVD, Anti-Blu-Ray thread by tranCendenZ. Dude, do you work for Toshiba or something?

What's he supposed to do, lie and say something positive about Blu-Ray? Sony dropped the ball big time and should be ripped for it.

That doesn't mean he's wrong. There is more awareness of HD-DVD right now because it's been out longer.

Movies for a new format are getting crushed by movies that have been available for months. Shouldn't the newly released movies be doing better?

I'm waiting for the format war to be decided. If you want to potentially throw your money away by jumping on the lead horse, go nuts.

You're acting like your player self-destructs if it loses the format war. The Toshiba player is also one of the best upconverting DVD players, which is worth $200-$300 alone, and you can keep using the HD-DVD movies you already own.

**SirBaron** · Jul 3, 2006, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Cobra84

What's he supposed to do, lie and say something positive about Blu-Ray? Sony dropped the ball big time and should be ripped for it.

Movies for a new format are getting crushed by movies that have been available for months. Shouldn't the newly released movies be doing better?

You're acting like your player self-destructs if it loses the format war. The Toshiba player is also one of the best upconverting DVD players, which is worth $200-$300 alone, and you can keep using the HD-DVD movies you already own.

QFT!

Sony released blu-ray too early as can be seen by the overpriced crappy players and Blu-Ray (lite) movies. They desearved to get ripped untill they bring something decent to the table.

And when they finally equal the performance of HD-DVD in terms of quality. Then what... the players still cost 2x the amount

. 2x for the same picture?

**seiji-kun** · Jul 3, 2006, 05:37 PM

Is it just me, or does anybody else think that Bluray hardware (and movies) aren't selling well right now, simply because people are waiting on the PS3. I mean, it's cheaper than the standalone, and it plays games. It's gonna be very interesting to see what kind of impact the PS3 is going to have on this. Though I do agree that what Sony's shown thus far of Bluray isn't very impressive. If they want to compete, they're gonna have to ditch Mpeg2 and start making use of the better codecs, and find a way to bring out their dual layer discs. But the war is far from over, IMO, so I'll stay neutral and see how everything pans out.

**Hidavi** · Jul 3, 2006, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by seiji-kun

If they want to compete, they're gonna have to ditch Mpeg2 and start making use of the better codecs, and find a way to bring out their dual layer discs.

AtracVideo FTW!!!

**tranCendenZ** · Jul 3, 2006, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by Takezo

No one is going to buy a $1000 dollar movie player. HD-DVD is 300 to 400 dollars cheaper, but that's still too expensive

By $300-$400 cheaper, I assume you mean $500 ($1000 - $500 = $500) cheaper.

I think people are stupid to even get either one. Early adopters get screwed over big time. Just look at DVD. I remember when DVD first came out, it was really expensive, around $500. Today you can get decent DVD players for less than $50, with progressive scan and everything.

I'd rather not wait 9 years before seeing Highdef movies on disc, even if it means I have to spend more money for a player now.

If PS3 is a success, it will mean that everyone who owns a PS3 can play Blu-Ray.

Fact.

Blu-Ray movies sales will start to pick up.

Conjecture. Everyone with a PSP can play UMD movies. UMD failed. Everyone with a DVD player made in the past 4 years can play DVD-Audio. DVD-Audio failed. Getting a free format built into a device does not mean the format will sell, especially when the primary purpose people are buying the device is for gaming and not movies.

In reality, I am betting 99.9% of people who buy a PS3 won't give a flying crap about Blu-Ray (or HD-DVD for that matter). They will buy it for games and not as a movie player - because aside from the stigma associated with a game console and the fact that most won't even own an HDTV, a dedicated standalone movie player has always proved superior in quality to game console players in the past.

The only thing that can thwart that is Xbox 360's HD-DVD addon. However add-ons in videogame history usualy have very low acceptance (with the exception of Japan, MS's weakest market), and don't do that well.

How well did the XBOX360's addon hard drive do again?

Sony actualy has the advantage. They know they are late into the market, and don't really expect Blu-Ray to catch on, untill a while after PS3's launch.

So basically they are going to lose the format war. If it takes years for Blu-Ray to catch on its DOA because HD-DVD has already caught on with the home theater crowd and by the time average joe actually buys an HDTV and gives a crap about highdef DVD PS4 will be out; the highdef disc formats will likely be an enthusiast format for quite some time.

Here's something to keep you thinking "down the road", though. HD-DVD has the ability to put HD video on one side of the disc and a regular DVD layer on the other side of the disc that will play in any DVD player (such as on 16 Blocks and Kiss Kiss Bang Bang). In a couple of years when manufacturing of HD-DVDs is cheaper, studios will be able to single stock titles in HD-DVD - meaning no standard DVD will be available for purchase in Walmart. Studios could essentially market HD-DVD by making the hybrid HD-DVD/DVD disc the only disc available for purchase when someone goes to the store to buy King Kong 2 on "DVD." When that customer wants to play it on their DVD player they simply put the "DVD" side face up. Studios who support HD-DVD can then actually boost hardware penetration by putting the software in the homes of people before they have an HD-DVD player, not to mention have a reason to charge a few extra bucks for their latest flick on disc.

Sony Pictures is another reason. Sony owns a lot of the major motion picture studios, which will make their movies Blu-Ray exclusive.

Sony only owns Columbia/Tristar. They lost MGM recently (Fox now controls MGM). The two largest motion picture companies (Warner Bros. and Universal) release on HD-DVD and Paramount has some titles in the works as well.

Third reason is HD-DVD movies are not exclusive, they will also be released on Blu-Ray.

Universal is exclusively releasing movies on HD-DVD at this point and in fact publically called Blu-Ray "another Sony disaster." Universal movies account for approximately 17.5% of consumer marketshare ($1.03bil) and is the 2nd largest studio by that measure.

Sales this early in the game means nothing, but proves people just have lots of money to burn.

I want HD movies now, not 2-3 years from now when the format war is over. Very simply, I cast my vote in the war by buying HD-DVD with my dollar. The most painful part of this is by far not HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray, but rather the replacement of my 1000+ SD-DVDs with HD copies.

**seiji-kun** · Jul 4, 2006, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by Hidavi

AtracVideo FTW!!!

lol, though Atrac music wouldn't be that bad if it weren't for that stupid sonicstage, or whatever program that was necessary to encode in it. Seriously though, I still have no clue why Sony opted to go with Mpeg2 in the first place, when Bluray supports the exact same codecs as HD-DVD. Especially since they still haven't brought out their dual layer discs yet, and are already at a space disadvantage. And to top it all off, they like to release their movies with uncompressed audio. I never found anything wrong with a good Dolby Digital/DTS track, so having uncompressed audio is just a waste of space. They'd better get their act together by the time the PS3 comes out...

**SirBaron** · Jul 4, 2006, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by seiji-kun

lol, though Atrac music wouldn't be that bad if it weren't for that stupid sonicstage, or whatever program that was necessary to encode in it. Seriously though, I still have no clue why Sony opted to go with Mpeg2 in the first place, when Bluray supports the exact same codecs as HD-DVD. Especially since they still haven't brought out their dual layer discs yet, and are already at a space disadvantage. And to top it all off, they like to release their movies with uncompressed audio. I never found anything wrong with a good Dolby Digital/DTS track, so having uncompressed audio is just a waste of space. They'd better get their act together by the time the PS3 comes out...

Yeah you think they almost did it on purpose with the amount of things they did wrong.

Ah well, stupid mistakes like these always bite them in the ass sooner or later. It's about time they take this "war" seriously and stop letting there universe sized ego from doing it properly. The kind of ego which goes like "we release crap and everyone will still buy it" kind of ego

**Crazy Legs** · Jul 4, 2006, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Sir_Baron

It's about time they take this "war" seriously and stop letting there universe sized ego from doing it properly. The kind of ego which goes like "we release crap and everyone will still buy it" kind of ego

The problem with Sony is that they approached console gaming with that attitude and were hugely successful. People are lemmings, sheep. The PS1 was inferior to the Dreamcast when it launched but the masses either failed to take to notice or didn't care. By the time the PS2 was released it was almost immediately trumped by the X-Box and the GameCube, but again, no one noticed or cared. Sony has been throwing crap against the wall and getting a lot of it to stick.

Hopefully they can get their act together and turn Blu-ray around. Otherwise, I hope Toshiba continues to trounce Blu-ray. If Sony thinks they can sell crap to public time and time again, I hope HD-DVD prevails.

I think the disc capacity and studio support favors Blu-ray. From a consumer use point of view, the pricepoint and DVD/HD-DVD hybrid discs favor HD-DVD. I can't say which format will be better in two years, or even in six months.

One of my concerns is that consumers blindly make the wrong choice. I hope that consumers are educated about their purchases.

**Hidavi** · Jul 4, 2006, 07:26 AM

Its too late for Blu-Ray to change specs. Players have already been sold and players have already been massed produced. To change to MPEG4 or something else would mean pulling the plug on current Blu-Ray devices.

**tranCendenZ** · Jul 4, 2006, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by Hidavi

Its too late for Blu-Ray to change specs. Players have already been sold and players have already been massed produced. To change to MPEG4 or something else would mean pulling the plug on current Blu-Ray devices.

That's not true, Blu-Ray supports VC-1 and MPEG4 in the specs.

The problem with Blu-Ray is threefold.

First, Sony is having major difficulties getting dual layer to work at sustainable mass market prices; they can only get it to work at great cost, meaning right now they might be able to use it by killing their profit on a couple of their movies as a tech demo but not as a long term option (i.e. they could put out a few BD50s in the short term to bait n' switch customers then go back to BD25 for 99% of releases). On the other hand, dual layer HD-DVD is replicating just fine. Meaning right now in terms of sustainable capacity HD-DVD can do 30gb and Blu-Ray can only do 25gb.

Second, VC-1 is the best codec out of them all and Microsoft makes it. Sony in order to license VC-1 has to pay Microsoft. Sony doesn't want to pay Microsoft because they are their rival. MPEG4 is decent too but it is being used in Japan and they cannot get it to look as good as VC-1. Sony needs to eat its pride in order to get the best looking codec.

Third, the software tools just aren't as good as HD-DVD's. HD-DVD has Microsoft, Intel, and HP behind it. Sony has... Sony. So the tools to make Blu-Ray discs are inferior to the ones to make HD-DVD discs. That shines through in disc quality, interactivity, etc.

In the end, I believe HD-DVD will be able to beat out Blu-Ray because Blu-Ray isn't even close to being ready for prime time. And this isn't even considering price, where HD-DVD is also way ahead of Blu-Ray. Not to mention that with VC-1, anything more than 30gb is just wasted space... Even the 15gb hd-dvds (16 blocks, kiss kiss bang bang) look outstanding. MPEG2 needs 50gb to look acceptable, but VC-1 looks amazing at 15-30.

I mean, even if Blu-Ray does get their act together, what are you going to say? "Wow, Blu-Ray looks as good as HD-DVD for only twice the price!"

**seiji-kun** · Jul 4, 2006, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by tranCendenZ

That's not true, Blu-Ray supports VC-1 and MPEG4 in the specs.

The problem with Blu-Ray is threefold.

First, Sony is having major difficulties getting dual layer to work at sustainable mass market prices; they can only get it to work at great cost, meaning right now they might be able to use it by killing their profit on a couple of their movies as a tech demo but not as a long term option (i.e. they could put out a few BD50s in the short term to bait n' switch customers then go back to BD25 for 99% of releases). On the other hand, dual layer HD-DVD is replicating just fine. Meaning right now in terms of sustainable capacity HD-DVD can do 30gb and Blu-Ray can only do 25gb.

Second, VC-1 is the best codec out of them all and Microsoft makes it. Sony in order to license VC-1 has to pay Microsoft. Sony doesn't want to pay Microsoft because they are their rival. MPEG4 is decent too but it is being used in Japan and they cannot get it to look as good as VC-1. Sony needs to eat its pride in order to get the best looking codec.

Third, the software tools just aren't as good as HD-DVD's. HD-DVD has Microsoft, Intel, and HP behind it. Sony has... Sony. So the tools to make Blu-Ray discs are inferior to the ones to make HD-DVD discs. That shines through in disc quality, interactivity, etc.

In the end, I believe HD-DVD will be able to beat out Blu-Ray because Blu-Ray isn't even close to being ready for prime time. And this isn't even considering price, where HD-DVD is also way ahead of Blu-Ray. Not to mention that with VC-1, anything more than 30gb is just wasted space... Even the 15gb hd-dvds (16 blocks, kiss kiss bang bang) look outstanding. MPEG2 needs 50gb to look acceptable, but VC-1 looks amazing at 15-30.

I mean, even if Blu-Ray does get their act together, what are you going to say? "Wow, Blu-Ray looks as good as HD-DVD for only twice the price!"

Well, considering the pricepoint of the PS3, I still don't think that Bluray is down and out just yet. If Sony can improve the quality of their Bluray releases in time for the PS3 launch, they could turn the tide in their favor. But if Sony can actually pull that off remains to be seen.

**Skynet** · Jul 4, 2006, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by tranCendenZ

Second, VC-1 is the best codec out of them all and Microsoft makes it. Sony in order to license VC-1 has to pay Microsoft. Sony doesn't want to pay Microsoft because they are their rival.

I thought VC-1 was part of the blu-ray spec?

AFAIK, blu-ray supports (among others)

VC-1
mpeg2
MPEG-4

Which makes it all the more strange why the first blu-ray discs were encoded using mpeg2, and not done properly at that.

**gmontem** · Jul 6, 2006, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Skynet

I thought VC-1 was part of the blu-ray spec?

AFAIK, blu-ray supports (among others)

VC-1
mpeg2
MPEG-4

Which makes it all the more strange why the first blu-ray discs were encoded using mpeg2, and not done properly at that.

It all boils down to licensing. I believe Sony would rather use their IP (MPEG2) than someone else's.

**Skynet** · Jul 6, 2006, 07:48 PM

Blu-ray does support VC-1. Sony is either ****ing crazy or just plain stupid not to push out the first discs encoded using the VC-1 codec.

1.8 What video codecs will Blu-ray support?

MPEG-2 - enhanced for HD, also used for playback of DVDs and HDTV recordings.
MPEG-4 AVC - part of the MPEG-4 standard also known as H.264 (High Profile and Main Profile).
SMPTE VC-1 - standard based on Microsoft's Windows Media Video (WMV) technology.

http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_video_codecs

**Fobinator** · Jul 8, 2006, 09:11 AM

On a side note, I just watched Serenity and all I got to say is WOW. That is one great movie and anyone who enjoys Scifi flicks needs to pick this up. I'm not surprised at all that it's second place on HDDVD, it looks real good too.

**SirBaron** · Jul 8, 2006, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Fobinator

On a side note, I just watched Serenity and all I got to say is WOW. That is one great movie and anyone who enjoys Scifi flicks needs to pick this up. I'm not surprised at all that it's second place on HDDVD, it looks real good too.

Have you seen firefly? It's the series which the film is based off. Also imo one of the best sci-fi's to hit the tv in along time.

Also i agree with the PQ too, Looks amazing on my projector and the 5.1 sound is awesome too

**Dachshund** · Jul 9, 2006, 10:51 PM

PS2 Hard Drive was a big success!!!

Announcement

HD-DVD hardware/software outsells Blu-Ray by far on Amazon.com

HD-DVD hardware/software outsells Blu-Ray by far on Amazon.com

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