Official Thread: Coronavirus "COVID-19"

[SD-[Inc]]

Ah yes, hyperbole and dramatics will definitely make your posts worth reading

Just clarifying what you are saying? Passing laws to protect people is authoritarian or not? Or, is it just this one case. Why is this case so different?

[Nunz]

I didn't say it.

You're using extremes to try and make the discussion impossible. I do not believe federal or state government should be pressuring private employers through incentives (or punishments). It's an overreach. Government employees being mandated is .. more complex of an issue in my opinion. Making people choose between their livelihoods or taking a vaccine is madness.

Passing laws to protect people is not authoritarian. Federal and state government influencing private employers or even mandating private employers (NYC, for example) to fire all unvaccinated employees or risk fines, is absolutely authoritarian; fits the definition perfectly.

If a private employer wants to mandate vaccines, that is their right. If they choose not to, also their right -- federal and state government making that decision for them is not OK.

[acroig]

Oh goody, more P&R discussions.....

Guys, the GOP SC has ruled so there's no point debating it in this particular thread, right?

[SubCog]

My crazy unvaccinated right-wing nut-ball uncle just sent out an email that he and his wife tested positive. He makes a big deal about how powerful his natural immunities are, and those will protect him. Will see if he dies.

[Nunz]

My crazy unvaccinated right-wing nut-ball uncle just sent out an email that he and his wife tested positive. He makes a big deal about how powerful his natural immunities are, and those will protect him. Will see if he dies.

Damn, true boomer sending out emails

[0091/2]

Passing laws to protect people is not authoritarian. Federal and state government influencing private employers or even mandating private employers (NYC, for example) to fire all unvaccinated employees or risk fines, is absolutely authoritarian; fits the definition perfectly.

If a private employer wants to mandate vaccines, that is their right. If they choose not to, also their right -- federal and state government making that decision for them is not OK.

If that's authoritarian then I'm ok with it as it affects public health. The government wouldn't have to do these things if the virus weren't contagious with a possibility of severe health issues. I'm all ears if you have a law in mind that could address this public health emergency without encroaching into private-sector health decision rights.

[Greasy]

Damn, true boomer sending out emails

I remember group chat via email back in the day. My kids didn't even know how to check their school email. Much less use the one I setup for them.

[SD-[Inc]]

I didn't say it.

You're using extremes to try and make the discussion impossible. I do not believe federal or state government should be pressuring private employers through incentives (or punishments). It's an overreach. Government employees being mandated is .. more complex of an issue in my opinion. Making people choose between their livelihoods or taking a vaccine is madness.

Passing laws to protect people is not authoritarian. Federal and state government influencing private employers or even mandating private employers (NYC, for example) to fire all unvaccinated employees or risk fines, is absolutely authoritarian; fits the definition perfectly.

If a private employer wants to mandate vaccines, that is their right. If they choose not to, also their right -- federal and state government making that decision for them is not OK.

There is an agency called OSHA. They usually mandate stuff all the time. Private industry is not in charge of public health. (Thankfully!)

Forget politics. My frustration is more based on data like this:

US = 4.25% of the world population
US = 15.5% of Covid worldwide fatalities

How is this possible? Don't we have all the tools to solve anything? Does anyone even care? I find it humiliated and sad that we are so pathetic. If we only had an average response we could have saved 500K lives. Instead we decided being inept and pathetic is the right way. Are any of you “No” people bothered by this at all? Do you have any realistic answers to what we should be doing. I am sick of debates when the whole thing is going to **** and one side only has one answer to every possible solution: “No”.

[Greasy]

Poor countries weren't accurately counting their dead. India for example. They were burning bodies when delta hit.

[Nunz]

There is an agency called OSHA. They usually mandate stuff all the time. Private industry is not in charge of public health. (Thankfully!)

Forget politics. My frustration is more based on data like this:

US = 4.25% of the world population
US = 15.5% of Covid worldwide fatalities

How is this possible? Don't we have all the tools to solve anything? Does anyone even care? I find it humiliated and sad that we are so pathetic. If we only had an average response we could have saved 500K lives. Instead we decided being inept and pathetic is the right way. Are any of you “No” people bothered by this at all? Do you have any realistic answers to what we should be doing. I am sick of debates when the whole thing is going to **** and one side only has one answer to every possible solution: “No”.

Private industry should be in charge of who they hire and the restrictions they would like to put on their employees. NYC mandating all employers force their employees to be vaccinated and provide proof of vaccination is an overreach of government and, imo, not a function of OSHA. That's up to the Supreme Court to decide, I suppose. I know how I feel about it, but I'm also not a lawyer nor an expert.

Your sarcasm in this post, rather than an actual discussion, is why I don't take your posts seriously. I'll give you one more honest reply and attempt, even though I've talked about what I thought the country should have done before, etc.

The numbers/percentage game is always interesting because it requires us all to be on a level playing field when it comes to reporting. If you've ever traveled and integrated with some less wealthy countries, then you would agree that there is very little chance they reported accurately. The amount of organization/coordination it takes for accurate reporting is a strain even on first world systems and support organizations. With that being said, there are so many factors that could put the U.S. to have more deaths than other countries, including our lacking initial response (as part of the result, not the sole reason). It's a moot point at this rate - the focus and discussion should have shifted by now.

We do not agree on how the country should have responded. I think we should have been more restrictive at first if the goal was to eliminate COVID from spreading into multiple variants - truthfully, that was never really a possibility due to how interconnected the world is these days (as well as first-world countries hoarding all supplies and leaving poor countries to burn with infections), but some of you clung to that idea for some reason, long after the ship had sailed, and when you are challenged on the idea that eliminating COVID was even possible, you go into a frenzy of extremes because your argument has no base to stand on.

If the US was isolated and no one ever traveled in/out of the country, then we *maybe* could have killed COVID; but that's not reality. The best thing we could do is generate a vaccine ASAP, which we did, and social distance. We did those things. The social distancing and masking should have been sooner, I do agree. As soon as it spread and new variants popped up, the entire focus should have shifted to "how do we increase survivability" (my idea is newly formulated vaccines as well as medicinal supplements that can assist the unvaccinated to fight the virus post-infection) rather than "how can we make COVID go away." Making COVID go away permanently was no longer an option within the first 3 months of spread. That means mid 2020, yet some of you guys are still talking about it. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

People die every day. Maybe my mental is skewed because of my experiences, but 500k dying does not make me blink. It's part of the cycle of life. Modern society has found itself gripping too hard to the idea of saving every single life possible. We've become so scared of death .. if anything is pathetic or humiliating .. that's it.

The "whole thing is going to ****" is just more dramatics. Pull your pants up and grow up. Life is moving on just fine, despite the missteps the feds took that is ****ing the economy into a firepit of inflation right now.

[Crawdaddy79]

Poor countries weren't accurately counting their dead. India for example. They were burning bodies when delta hit.

Bingo.

It's also not like the most populated country in the world is forthcoming about what's going on to its own people, much less the globe.

We're still a higher percentage of deaths than most European countries though.

Also we count "with COVID" and don't filter out "from COVID". Not sure if everyone else does it that way.

[SD-[Inc]]

Private industry should be in charge of who they hire and the restrictions they would like to put on their employees. NYC mandating all employers force their employees to be vaccinated and provide proof of vaccination is an overreach of government and, imo, not a function of OSHA. That's up to the Supreme Court to decide, I suppose. I know how I feel about it, but I'm also not a lawyer nor an expert.

Your sarcasm in this post, rather than an actual discussion, is why I don't take your posts seriously. I'll give you one more honest reply and attempt, even though I've talked about what I thought the country should have done before, etc.

The numbers/percentage game is always interesting because it requires us all to be on a level playing field when it comes to reporting. If you've ever traveled and integrated with some less wealthy countries, then you would agree that there is very little chance they reported accurately. The amount of organization/coordination it takes for accurate reporting is a strain even on first world systems and support organizations. With that being said, there are so many factors that could put the U.S. to have more deaths than other countries, including our lacking initial response (as part of the result, not the sole reason). It's a moot point at this rate - the focus and discussion should have shifted by now.

We do not agree on how the country should have responded. I think we should have been more restrictive at first if the goal was to eliminate COVID from spreading into multiple variants - truthfully, that was never really a possibility due to how interconnected the world is these days (as well as first-world countries hoarding all supplies and leaving poor countries to burn with infections), but some of you clung to that idea for some reason, long after the ship had sailed, and when you are challenged on the idea that eliminating COVID was even possible, you go into a frenzy of extremes because your argument has no base to stand on.

If the US was isolated and no one ever traveled in/out of the country, then we *maybe* could have killed COVID; but that's not reality. The best thing we could do is generate a vaccine ASAP, which we did, and social distance. We did those things. The social distancing and masking should have been sooner, I do agree. As soon as it spread and new variants popped up, the entire focus should have shifted to "how do we increase survivability" (my idea is newly formulated vaccines as well as medicinal supplements that can assist the unvaccinated to fight the virus post-infection) rather than "how can we make COVID go away." Making COVID go away permanently was no longer an option within the first 3 months of spread. That means mid 2020, yet some of you guys are still talking about it. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

People die every day. Maybe my mental is skewed because of my experiences, but 500k dying does not make me blink. It's part of the cycle of life. Modern society has found itself gripping too hard to the idea of saving every single life possible. We've become so scared of death .. if anything is pathetic or humiliating .. that's it.

The "whole thing is going to ****" is just more dramatics. Pull your pants up and grow up. Life is moving on just fine, despite the missteps the feds took that is ****ing the economy into a firepit of inflation right now.

Your post started out sane and then went way dark. 500K dead is nothing? If that doesn’t matter to you there really is no point in this discussion. I guess that’s how most people feel these days. Hope no one close to you is affected seriously.

[Greasy]

Your post started out sane and then went way dark. 500K dead is nothing? If that doesn’t matter to you there really is no point in this discussion. I guess that’s how most people feel these days. Hope no one close to you is affected seriously.

I agree with him. He's spot on.

[acroig]

I can't say that half a million dead does not affect me. Having the technology and resources we have I find it distressing that so many have died that could have been prevented but also that we are decimating our health care system and workers. The fact that hospitals are full of mostly unvaccinated Covid patients also means that normal medical occurrences cannot be treated and so more die or suffer needlessly. We have seen Covid mutate and transfer and become more resistant to current vaccines. I also don't understand how, in the 21st century, people fear a sound medical cure, mostly for made up political reasons by others that make money sowing lies.

In the end divided we fall. What our foes could not accomplish from without we made possible from within. We are witnessing the end of our Republic. Hope it was worth it.

[Greasy]

I can't say that half a million dead does not affect me. Having the technology and resources we have I find it distressing that so many have died that could have been prevented but also that we are decimating our health care system and workers. The fact that hospitals are full of mostly unvaccinated Covid patients also means that normal medical occurrences cannot be treated and so more die or suffer needlessly. We have seen Covid mutate and transfer and become more resistant to current vaccines. I also don't understand how, in the 21st century, people fear a sound medical cure, mostly for made up political reasons by others that make money sowing lies.

In the end divided we fall. What our foes could not accomplish from without we made possible from within. We are witnessing the end of our Republic. Hope it was worth it.

Sadly at this point it's going to take a war to bring us back together.

Not a civil war, because I honestly don't see how that could happen. I think Russia invades Ukraine, and the west does nothing. Then China say, let's goooo, and takes Taiwan. Then we're in some next level mess, and all Americans are focused on a single goal. I seriously hope that never happens though.

[SD-[Inc]]

Sadly at this point it's going to take a war to bring us back together.

Not a civil war, because I honestly don't see how that could happen. I think Russia invades Ukraine, and the west does nothing. Then China say, let's goooo, and takes Taiwan. Then we're in some next level mess, and all Americans are focused on a single goal. I seriously hope that never happens though.

Peaceful dissolution is probably the least terrible of all outcomes. But probably the most unlikely.

[12Bass]

The US had access to vaccines before Canada, yet a much higher death rate. And some think the US response was too harsh/authoritarian. Seems like a public health failure to me. The US has divided itself, not because of a "foreign" virus, but because of factors that are beyond the rules in this particular forum.

[SubCog]

I fully support the freedom + personal responsibility people out there. People who choose to go unvaxed should be responsible for costs of any treatments they require, and also be liable if they infect others around them.

[Greasy]

I fully support the freedom + personal responsibility people out there. People who choose to go unvaxed should be responsible for costs of any treatments they require, and also be liable if they infect others around them.

I'm down with the you pay for it if you get it, but how the hell are you going to prove someone gave you the virus unless it was just you and them in a cabin for a week?

[SubCog]

I'm down with the you pay for it if you get it, but how the hell are you going to prove someone gave you the virus unless it was just you and them in a cabin for a week?

I say we err on the side of "guilty".

[Greasy]

I say we err on the side of "guilty".

Well you better hope for better DAs in your state then. They don't prosecute anyone unless it hit national media.

[Nunz]

Your post started out sane and then went way dark. 500K dead is nothing? If that doesn’t matter to you there really is no point in this discussion. I guess that’s how most people feel these days. Hope no one close to you is affected seriously.

It's because you can't actually refute anything I have to say. You'll just clamor about "but 500k!!" and stick to how our country is "pathetic" and "humiliating" while maintaining this idea that we could have someone saved a bunch of people's lives if we "just did things differently"..

I can't say that half a million dead does not affect me. Having the technology and resources we have I find it distressing that so many have died that could have been prevented but also that we are decimating our health care system and workers. The fact that hospitals are full of mostly unvaccinated Covid patients also means that normal medical occurrences cannot be treated and so more die or suffer needlessly. We have seen Covid mutate and transfer and become more resistant to current vaccines. I also don't understand how, in the 21st century, people fear a sound medical cure, mostly for made up political reasons by others that make money sowing lies.

In the end divided we fall. What our foes could not accomplish from without we made possible from within. We are witnessing the end of our Republic. Hope it was worth it.

Again, with the resources and technology, we saved more lives, not lost more. Areas with dense population were decimated, and surprise, the US has some quite dense areas. We were also pretty strict on reporting, even in places that tried to be less strict (Florida, for example). If you think Florida was lax, what the hell do you think countries that didn't have the entire international community staring at them did? You think any of these world governments weren't trying to do everything possible to save from a black-eye?

Part of the reason hospitals are overwhelmed is simply because we don't have enough of them, as a country. I've watched NYC build condo and high-rise after condo and high-rise; you think I ever seen them build a ****ing hospital for all the gentrified yuppie transplants that moved into the neighborhood? Nope. Suddenly, now we're shocked when the health care system is overwhelmed because we've neglected it for decades... But it's COVIDs fault, not our lack of maintaining infrastructure.. it couldn't possibly be anything else other than COVID..

[ice]

I fully support the freedom + personal responsibility people out there. People who choose to go unvaxed should be responsible for costs of any treatments they require, and also be liable if they infect others around them.

Liable for infecting others? Really? Are you going to say the same thing for the vaxxed people who infect others?

[switchAMG]

I think we need to look at two things when we talk vaccination mandates:

1) Vaccine effectiveness in reducing individual symptomatic and severe disease, resulting in reduced hospitalizations and ICU admissions.
2) Vaccine effectiveness in prevention of transmission of the virus.

Number one has been proven worldwide. Number two, there is no studies proving the vaccine slows transmission or viral load of the virus from person to person - zero evidence. Do I personally think everyone should get vaccinated? 100% (not because I worry about them affecting me or my family but more so I don't want to see them in ICU). Is it my right to mandate what people do with their bodies? No, not at all. The other elephant in the room? Other than Japan, Korea and maybe Germany -- every other country does not have the hospital bed space they should. You look at US, Canada and UK -- our competitors with beds per 100k are all developing countries. To me that is a massive gap that should be dealt with before our next pandemic.

My biggest problem in the last two years? Our governments have been hyper-focusing on vaccines and hiding in our homes. Not once did I see anyone telling us to exercise, get vitamin D, sleep right, eat right and be healthy.

Anyways, I finally caught COVID last week -- few days of being tired with a headache and a cough. Maybe I was lucky or maybe because I am fit and vaccinated it was just like a common cold.

[acroig]

Anyways, I finally caught COVID last week -- few days of being tired with a headache and a cough. Maybe I was lucky or maybe because I am fit and vaccinated it was just like a common cold.

The latter I'd say.

[12Bass]

Number two, there is no studies proving the vaccine slows transmission or viral load of the virus from person to person - zero evidence.

That's false. Numerous studies have shown that vaccines reduce transmission and viral load.

https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/assets/info/ppih/if-ppih-covid-19-sag-post-vaccine-transmission-rapid-review.pdf

Viral transmission from fully or partially vaccinated individuals

• Six studies were included in the synthesis regarding household transmission of COVID-19 – two from the previous update and 4 identified in the current search. Taken together, the evidence shows that Pfizer-BioNTech (PfBNT), Moderna, AstraZeneca (AZ) and Janssen (J&J) vaccines can significantly reduce household transmission of wild-type or the B.1.1.7 (Alpha) COVID-19 strain after 14 days of vaccination by at least 63%.

• In most studies of household linked cases, most index cases were unvaccinated. In the small proportion of households with vaccinated index cases, the secondary attack rate was much lower (e.g. 11% versus 31%, a 70% reduction (de Gier). This suggests that that vaccinated individuals who experience breakthrough infections have lower levels of secondary transmission within their household.

Asymptomatic infection in vaccinated individuals

• A small proportion of people who are partially or fully vaccinated have been documented to have detectable SARS-CoV-2 virus by RT-PCR at various time points after their vaccine first dose. There is rapidly evolving data in this area, and readers are requested to refer to the most recent posted version of the COVID-END report.

• Twenty studies reported on RT-PCR Ct values as a possible indicator of amount of virus present, eleven of which were new. The AZ, PfBnT, and Moderna vaccines were found to be significantly associated with higher cycle threshold (Ct) values which suggests lower viral loads in people testing positive after vaccination. More evidence is required to provide a clearer indication of the correlation between higher Ct values and reduced subsequent transmission.

• The available vaccines have been shown effective for reducing asymptomatic infections caused by wild-type SARS-CoV-2. With respect to B.1.617.2 (Delta) infection, one study (Tang et al) found that a full dose of PfBNT from the 14th day onward from the date of vaccination was found to reduce asymptomatic infection by 35.9% (95% CI: 11.1-53.9) against the Delta variant and that a full-dose of Moderna had 80.2% vaccine effectiveness (95% CI: 54.2-92.6) against asymptomatic carriage of the Delta strain 14 days after full vaccination.

• Some studies have found decreased viral load (or increased Ct values) in people testing positive with B.1.617.2 after vaccination. Given the recent emergence of the Delta variant, there is insufficient evidence to make a definitive conclusion about the impact of vaccine related reduction in risk of asymptomatic B.1.617.2 (Delta) infection, viral load or increased Ct values in people testing positive after vaccination.

• It is not possible to directly compare findings across studies because of variations in the assessment of symptom status, study design, and setting of the trials particularly with respect to degree of circulation of variants of concern (VOC).

The situation may be somewhat different with Omicron. However, most of the lockdowns took place before Omicron, when vaccines did measurably reduce transmissions and viral load, justifying the utility of vaccine mandates in reducing case rates and load on the healthcare system.

[12Bass]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

Findings

The SAR in household contacts exposed to the delta variant was 25% (95% CI 18–33) for fully vaccinated individuals compared with 38% (24–53) in unvaccinated individuals. The median time between second vaccine dose and study recruitment in fully vaccinated contacts was longer for infected individuals (median 101 days [IQR 74–120]) than for uninfected individuals (64 days [32–97], p=0·001). SAR among household contacts exposed to fully vaccinated index cases was similar to household contacts exposed to unvaccinated index cases (25% [95% CI 15–35] for vaccinated vs 23% [15–31] for unvaccinated). 12 (39%) of 31 infections in fully vaccinated household contacts arose from fully vaccinated epidemiologically linked index cases, further confirmed by genomic and virological analysis in three index case–contact pairs. Although peak viral load did not differ by vaccination status or variant type, it increased modestly with age (difference of 0·39 [95% credible interval –0·03 to 0·79] in peak log10 viral load per mL between those aged 10 years and 50 years). Fully vaccinated individuals with delta variant infection had a faster (posterior probability >0·84) mean rate of viral load decline (0·95 log10 copies per mL per day) than did unvaccinated individuals with pre-alpha (0·69), alpha (0·82), or delta (0·79) variant infections. Within individuals, faster viral load growth was correlated with higher peak viral load (correlation 0·42 [95% credible interval 0·13 to 0·65]) and slower decline (–0·44 [–0·67 to –0·18]).

Interpretation

Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Host–virus interactions early in infection may shape the entire viral trajectory.

If we're getting into semantics, science doesn't deal in absolute proofs. But the evidence does clearly show a correlation between the use of vaccines and reduced spread. No, they aren't impenetrable barriers, but they do make a significant difference, especially in terms of reducing severe disease, hospitalization, and death.

[SD-[Inc]]

It's because you can't actually refute anything I have to say. You'll just clamor about "but 500k!!" and stick to how our country is "pathetic" and "humiliating" while maintaining this idea that we could have someone saved a bunch of people's lives if we "just did things differently"..



Again, with the resources and technology, we saved more lives, not lost more. Areas with dense population were decimated, and surprise, the US has some quite dense areas. We were also pretty strict on reporting, even in places that tried to be less strict (Florida, for example). If you think Florida was lax, what the hell do you think countries that didn't have the entire international community staring at them did? You think any of these world governments weren't trying to do everything possible to save from a black-eye?

Part of the reason hospitals are overwhelmed is simply because we don't have enough of them, as a country. I've watched NYC build condo and high-rise after condo and high-rise; you think I ever seen them build a ****ing hospital for all the gentrified yuppie transplants that moved into the neighborhood? Nope. Suddenly, now we're shocked when the health care system is overwhelmed because we've neglected it for decades... But it's COVIDs fault, not our lack of maintaining infrastructure.. it couldn't possibly be anything else other than COVID..

As far as being complacent I somewhat disagree. I think the population is misguided not complacent. There are a ton of factors that contribute to this all of which can be discussed in P&R.

It is good you ask these questions. I am sarcastic about our prospects. You sound defeatist. That’s what I mean by misguided. There is a lot to be hopeful about.

[switchAMG]

That's false. Numerous studies have shown that vaccines reduce transmission and viral load.

https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/assets/info/ppih/if-ppih-covid-19-sag-post-vaccine-transmission-rapid-review.pdf

The situation may be somewhat different with Omicron. However, most of the lockdowns took place before Omicron, when vaccines did measurably reduce transmissions and viral load, justifying the utility of vaccine mandates in reducing case rates and load on the healthcare system.

Not false -- there are multiple studies, white papers on both sides of the fence. I could quote 50 reputable sources that claim the opposite. I think its safe to say at this point -- no one really knows anything. It will be 2030 before we really know anything.

[12Bass]

Not false -- there are multiple studies, white papers on both sides of the fence. I could quote 50 reputable sources that claim the opposite. I think its safe to say at this point -- no one really knows anything. It will be 2030 before we really know anything.

Your claim was no studies and zero evidence, yet there actually are studies showing a link between vaccination and the reduction of spread; so, there clearly is some evidence of a connection found by different researchers in multiple studies. If there are reputable scientific studies showing the opposite, please post them.

[bill dennison]

Vaccines are effective way to reduce the spread of serious disease.

but they are not working for that for covid

vaccinated just don't get it bad in most cases
but still get it almost as easyly and will spread it just as bad or maybe more so as a lot don't even know they have it to stay in


everyone is going to get this vaccinated or not sooner or later .
and i can see it for young people that have had it already not wanting to get vaccinated if they had it with no problems the first time

[switchAMG]

Your claim was no studies and zero evidence, yet there actually are studies showing a link between vaccination and the reduction of spread; so, there clearly is some evidence of a connection found by different researchers in multiple studies. If there are reputable scientific studies showing the opposite, please post them.

Oh relax Dr. 12bass, comparing this to smoking and climate change is childish.

Go Google yourself, unless you are only wanting to read what aligns with your narrative?

Here is one example. I would post up pages of these but I don't care to argue with close minded individuals, you do you.

And again, I am not dismissing the importance of getting vaccinated but come on.

The answer is not boosters every 3 months for the rest of our lives.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-risk-of-vaccinated-covid-transmission-is-not-low/

"A peer-reviewed study of 162 Delta-infected index cases and their 231 household contacts?who were tracked and tested every day for up to 20 days, regardless of symptoms?found that once infected, the vaccinated were just as likely to transmit COVID to people in their own households as the unvaccinated: about a quarter of both did so. They also found that the asymptomatic infection rate among vaccinated and unvaccinated participants was similar: around 30 percent. This was published in*Lancet Infectious Disease."


"A commentary*accompanying the article grimly concluded, ?[T]his study unfortunately also highlights that the vaccine effect on reducing transmission is minimal in the context of [Delta] variant circulation.?


"A much larger study*of 146,243 adult contacts?about two thirds within households?of 108,498 adult index cases in the U.K. was posted as a preprint. Those newly vaccinated by Pfizer or AstraZeneca started out half and three-quarters as likely as unvaccinated index cases to transmit COVID, respectively.

That sounds reassuring until you consider that the transmission rate of an unvaccinated person in this study was 46 percent: a coin flip. The transmission rate to contacts of freshly vaccinated people was about one in four, the same rate found by the authors of the*Lancet*study. Yet by three and a half months post vaccination, recipients of the Astra Zeneca vaccine were already as likely to transmit Delta to a contact as an unvaccinated person and a recipient of the Pfizer vaccine was about 80 percent as likely, and moving in the direction of becoming as likely with more time.

And that infection rate is a big problem, because there could be a lot more infected vaccinated people out there than we think. The official estimates*at the beginning of October*were that the unvaccinated were five times likelier to get infected than the vaccinated. But we don?t have a great handle on the real number, because the CDC*stopped tracking even most symptomatic breakthroughs in May. Vaccinated transmission may be helping drive surprising surges in the virus in communities with high vaccination rates like*New England, the*Navajo Nation, and*Portugal, France,*Ireland and other parts of Europe."



Sent from my SM-G998W using Tapatalk

[Greasy]

Switch posting why I never visit P&R. Way too one sided focus in there.

[switchAMG]

Switch posting why I never visit P&R. Way too one sided focus in there.

Exactly. I live in the middle, left and right both hate me lol.

Sent from my SM-G998W using Tapatalk

[ice]

but they are not working for that for covid

vaccinated just don't get it bad in most cases
but still get it almost as easyly and will spread it just as bad or maybe more so as a lot don't even know they have it to stay in


everyone is going to get this vaccinated or not sooner or later .
and i can see it for young people that have had it already not wanting to get vaccinated if they had it with no problems the first time

Yep, just as everyone touts the unvaccinated as mouth breathers, everyone I know who is fully vaccinated and boosted walk around like they're invincible, and thus disregard all forms of safety. They're as big of idiots as the unvaccinated who do the same, so painting one side of the story is idiotic.

[12Bass]

Oh relax Dr. 12bass, comparing this to smoking and climate change is childish.

Go Google yourself, unless you are only wanting to read what aligns with your narrative?

Here is one example. I would post up pages of these but I don't care to argue with close minded individuals, you do you.

And again, I am not dismissing the importance of getting vaccinated but come on.

Are those personal attacks really necessary? Calling me "Dr. 12bass" and "close minded"? I'm not closed minded. A reasonable discussion involves bringing evidence and sound arguments. I'm open to evidence, which is why I asked for it. I'm also open to reasonable arguments and will discuss almost anything with anyone provided they are also willing to be reasonable. However, I am not open to personal attacks

My "narrative" is that absolute statements are often false, as was the statement you made above. There certainly is some evidence, not zero. There is also debate about the strength of that evidence. The vaccines do not create an impenetrable force field; vaccinated people do transmit infection. But it is also clear that some studies show that they do so at a reduced rate when compared with unvaccinated people. And, clearly, vaccination is keeping people out of the hospitals. And now Omicron has changed the game once again, due to its extremely high transmissibility.

[SD-[Inc]]

Yep, just as everyone touts the unvaccinated as mouth breathing "don't take mah freedoms", everyone I know who is fully vaccinated and boosted walk around like they're invincible, and thus disregard all forms of safety. They're as big of idiots as the unvaccinated who do the same, so painting one side of the story is idiotic.

Which is probably why breakthrough cases are common. It’s dumb to think you are 100% protected. No on ever promised that ever. It’s fantasy thinking from a different angle. When cases are high in your areas just wear a good mask. That goes for everyone regardless of vax status. Is that so hard? When cases reside, that’s the time to relax.

[KAC]

I am vaccinated but I still mask up everywhere I go, keep my distance and only thing I can’t avoid is smacking a woman’s ass in public if she is showing. I sanitize afterwards though.

[ugly]

This is possibly the best paper discussing transmissibilty. It looks at infectious titres, and not simply viral load.

It is clear. Vaccines reduce transmission:

Abstract
Background
Viral load (VL) is one determinant of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2. Emergence of variants of concerns (VOC) Alpha and Delta was ascribed, at least partly, to higher VL. Furthermore, with parts of the population vaccinated, knowledge on VL in vaccine breakthrough infections is crucial. As RNA VL is only a weak proxy for infectiousness, studies on infectious virus presence by cell culture isolation are of importance.

Methods
We assessed nasopharyngeal swabs of COVID-19 patients for quantitative infectious viral titres (IVT) by focus-forming assay and compared to overall virus isolation success and RNA genome copies. We assessed infectious viral titres during the first 5 symptomatic days in a total of 384 patients: unvaccinated individuals infected with pre-VOC SARS-CoV-2 (n= 118) or Delta (n= 127) and vaccine breakthrough infections with Delta (n= 121) or Omicron (n=18).

Findings
Correlation between RNA copy number and IVT was low for all groups. No correlation between IVTs and age or sex was seen. We observed higher RNA genome copies in pre-VOC SARS-CoV-2 compared to Delta, but significantly higher IVTs in Delta infected individuals. In vaccinated vs. unvaccinated Delta infected individuals, RNA genome copies were comparable but vaccinated individuals have significantly lower IVTs, and cleared virus faster. Vaccinated individuals with Omicron infection had comparable IVTs to Delta breakthrough infections.

Interpretation
Quantitative IVTs can give detailed insights into virus shedding kinetics. Vaccination was associated with lower infectious titres and faster clearance for Delta, showing that vaccination would also lower transmission risk. Omicron vaccine breakthrough infections did not show elevated IVTs compared to Delta, suggesting that other mechanisms than increase VL contribute to the high infectiousness of Omicron.

[12Bass]

This is possibly the best paper discussing transmissibilty. It looks at infectious titres, and not simply viral load.

It is clear. Vaccines reduce transmission:

Thanks for posting this.

I'm thinking that there is motivated reasoning behind the claim that there is "zero evidence" that vaccines reduce SARS-CoV-2 transmissibility, perhaps due to taking issue with mandates and lockdowns; because if vaccines really have "zero effect" on transmissibility, that would seem to call the rationale of lockdowns, mandates, vaccine passports, and other similar measures into question. Anti-lockdown, anti-mandate, and anti-mask views are heard loud and clear in Alberta, as is the news of record high COVID cases, forcing Alberta to send overflow COVID patients to other provinces. Whether or not a person agrees with lockdowns, mandates, and other mitigation efforts, it is important to be accurate about the facts of the matter and not let one's bias lead them astray.

Truth matters, especially during a pandemic. False beliefs can be deadly. Thousands have died because of mistaken beliefs about vaccines.