Official Thread: Coronavirus "COVID-19"

[dodger]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/1-8-of-staff-fired-from-nys-largest-health-care-provider-for-vaccine-refusal/

A mandate at Indiana University Health, for instance, resulted in just 0.3 percent of the workforce quitting, the researchers noted in their analysis, published by the nonprofit news outlet The Conversation. Just 0.6 percent of workers at Houston Methodist Hospital ended up leaving over a vaccine mandate, despite much publicity of vocal objectors. And just 2 percent of Delta Air Lines employees quit over a requirement to either get vaccinated or pay a $200-per-month insurance surcharge.

"In other words, vaccine mandates are unlikely to result in a wave of resignations—but they are likely to lead to a boost in vaccination rates."

Well koralis it might be 4% for now, if other systems see the resignations have not been so bad it could be getting closer to 0.

[Drunken Janitor]

Welp, I once again got into a heated argument with my best friend over vaccines; he believes the MSM is lying, stats are made up, only old people should get the vaccine etc...
When I present him with numbers, he flat out rejects them and says he doesn't care about stats and he's going with his instincts.
Now I gave up a longtime ago about him getting vaccinated and I asked him multiple times not to bring up vaccines again, but here we are...

I have several people I no longer consider friends. It wasn't just Covid. It was batshit rabbit hole stuff starting with Qanon and going even deeper. Covid tipped it over. They are not the same person they were when we used to go ice fishing and cat fishing together. They are no longer kind and fun. Everything is a culture war with them now. They suck.

[Sasquach]

I always say "trust your gut", but only until your gut gets infected with COVID. Then use your head...

they'll use their head...they'll masturbate and "expel" covid through the fluid release.......

Because using their head with an actual brain in it is a foreign concept.

[Java Cool Dude]

Welp, LA will be requiring vaccination to enter gyms, restaurants and other indoor venues...
Looks like I will be losing my workout partner

[MyTMouse]

Well, googling can be research, if you know how to search and what is and isn't credible information. Somehow, I figured that PhDs should know better, but these studies show that they are failing due to cognitive biases just like everyone else, so they are apparently not as smart as they seem to think (Dunning-Kruger).

From the second link above:

Having a PhD does not make someone smart...it mostly shows they were very good at regurgitating the information the Universities wanted...heck that's most university programs, very little actual critical thinking and just give them what they want. I know people who never went farther than high school who are far smarter than some people with Masters or PhDs

[SirBaron]

Having a PhD does not make someone smart...it mostly shows they were very good at regurgitating the information the Universities wanted...heck that's most university programs, very little actual critical thinking and just give them what they want. I know people who never went farther than high school who are far smarter than some people with Masters or PhDs

[acroig]

Indeed.

[SubCog]

Having a PhD does not make someone smart...it mostly shows they were very good at regurgitating the information the Universities wanted...heck that's most university programs, very little actual critical thinking and just give them what they want. I know people who never went farther than high school who are far smarter than some people with Masters or PhDs

All the PhDs I know are pretty damn smart. I don't know any stupid PhDs.

Doesn't mean that everyone smart has a PhD. Lots of smart people realize early on that they can make more $$ doing something else.

[ugly]

One-year Risks and Burdens of Incident Cardiovascular Disease in COVID-19: Cardiovascular Manifestations of Long COVID

Abstract

The cardiovascular complications of acute COVID-19 are well described; however, a comprehensive characterization of the post-acute cardiovascular manifestations of COVID-19 at one year has not been undertaken. Here we use the US Department of Veterans Affairs national healthcare databases to build a cohort of 151,195 people with COVID-19, 3,670,087 contemporary and 3,656,337 historical controls to estimate risks and 1-year burdens of a set of pre-specified incident cardiovascular outcomes. We show that beyond the first 30 days of infection, people with COVID-19 are at increased risk of incident cardiovascular disease spanning several categories including cerebrovascular disorders, dysrhythmias, ischemic and non-ischemic heart disease, pericarditis, myocarditis, heart failure, and thromboembolic disease. The risks and burdens were evident among those who were non-hospitalized during the acute phase of the infection and increased in a graded fashion according to care setting of the acute infection (non-hospitalized, hospitalized, and admitted to intensive care). Taken together, our results provide evidence that risk and 1-year burden of cardiovascular disease in survivors of acute COVID-19 are substantial. Care pathways of people who survived the acute episode of COVID-19 should include attention to cardiovascular health and disease.

[koralis]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/06/covid-dr-scott-gottlieb-says-antiviral-pills-kids-vaccines-key-to-ending-pandemic-phase.html

Dr. Scott Gottlieb said Wednesday he expects the coronavirus’ “pandemic phase” to be over in the U.S. once vaccines become available for children and Merck’s antiviral pill is cleared by regulators.

The other crucial development is for the highly transmissible Covid delta variant to have “moved through the country,” which is likely to conclude around Thanksgiving, Gottlieb told CNBC’s David Faber in a “Squawk on the Street” interview from 13D Monitor’s Active-Passive Investor Summit in New York City.

On the back end of that, we’re going to have, hopefully, a vaccine available for children and, at some point before the end of the year, we probably will have the orally available drug from Merck if things go well and that undergoes a favorable review,” said Gottlieb, a former Food and Drug Administration commissioner who now serves on the board of Covid vaccine maker Pfizer, which is also working on an antiviral pill.

“I think those two things are going to be the bookend on the pandemic phase of this virus and we’re going to be entering the more endemic phase, when this becomes an omnipresent risk but don’t represent the extreme risk that it represents right now,” Gottlieb said.

Seasonal flu is one example of an endemic virus.

[SD-[Inc]]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/06/covi...mic-phase.html

Fingers crossed….

[SubCog]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/06/covi...mic-phase.html

Dr. Scott Gottlieb said Wednesday he expects the coronavirus’ “pandemic phase” to be over in the U.S. once vaccines become available for children and Merck’s antiviral pill is cleared by regulators.

The other crucial development is for the highly transmissible Covid delta variant to have “moved through the country,” which is likely to conclude around Thanksgiving, Gottlieb told CNBC’s David Faber in a “Squawk on the Street” interview from 13D Monitor’s Active-Passive Investor Summit in New York City.

On the back end of that, we’re going to have, hopefully, a vaccine available for children and, at some point before the end of the year, we probably will have the orally available drug from Merck if things go well and that undergoes a favorable review,” said Gottlieb, a former Food and Drug Administration commissioner who now serves on the board of Covid vaccine maker Pfizer, which is also working on an antiviral pill.

“I think those two things are going to be the bookend on the pandemic phase of this virus and we’re going to be entering the more endemic phase, when this becomes an omnipresent risk but don’t represent the extreme risk that it represents right now,” Gottlieb said.

Seasonal flu is one example of an endemic virus.

Yup. Right now we still undertake some interventions, such as mask wearing and a bit of social-distancing, largely for the sake of the children who have not yet been allowed to get the vaccine. This is acting as shield to protect anti-vaxxers.

Once we get the children vaccinated, I think most of us will simply no longer tolerate further interventions to protect the worst people in our society. Honestly I think we should move toward no longer burdening our hospital employees with taking care of unvaccinated covid patients either. Give 'em a fistful of Ivermectin and let 'em treat themselves at home.

If massive numbers of unvaccinated people continue to die, I'm okay with that (and it will make the world a better place). If they can't be bothered to lift a finger to save themselves, I think the rest of us can wash our hands of it.

[A2597]

Yup. Right now we still undertake some interventions, such as mask wearing and a bit of social-distancing, largely for the sake of the children who have not yet been allowed to get the vaccine. This is acting as shield to protect anti-vaxxers.

Once we get the children vaccinated, I think most of us will simply no longer tolerate further interventions to protect the worst people in our society. Honestly I think we should move toward no longer burdening our hospital employees with taking care of unvaccinated covid patients either. Give 'em a fistful of Ivermectin and let 'em treat themselves at home.

If massive numbers of unvaccinated people continue to die, I'm okay with that (and it will make the world a better place). If they can't be bothered to lift a finger to save themselves, I think the rest of us can wash our hands of it.

Punishing the wrong people, by and large. The liars causing doubt and fear should be the ones punished. The anti-vax people I know believe the vaccine will eventually kill them if they take it, and are being fed that information by doctors using cherry picked medical research to make their argument not to take it.

[Trunks0]

Having a PhD does not make someone smart...it mostly shows they were very good at regurgitating the information the Universities wanted...heck that's most university programs, very little actual critical thinking and just give them what they want. I know people who never went farther than high school who are far smarter than some people with Masters or PhDs

PhD just means they should be an expert in there given field they have a PhD in. I wouldn't likely ever class such people as stupid, or not "smart". But they are perfectly capable of being idiots

[Cyko]

Having a PhD does not make someone smart...it mostly shows they were very good at regurgitating the information the Universities wanted...heck that's most university programs, very little actual critical thinking and just give them what they want. I know people who never went farther than high school who are far smarter than some people with Masters or PhDs

If you try and regurgitate information while coming up with your doctoral thesis you won’t make it very far. In fact, it won’t even be accepted as a topic. If you’re going to spread BS at least try and make it believable, k? Thx.

Pretty much

[12Bass]

AstroZeneca/mRNA mix as effective as two mRNA doses. Also, longer spacing between doses resulted in higher efficacy.

http://www.bccdc.ca/about/news-stories/stories/2021/covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-results

[SD-[Inc]]

Mostly good news lately. But then there is this

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...h-care-workers

A constant barrage of misinformation has Idaho health care workers facing increased animosity from some patients and community members, officials say. It's gotten so bad in northern Idaho that some Kootenai Health employees are scared to go to the grocery store if they haven't changed out of their scrubs, said hospital spokeswoman Caiti Bobbitt on Tuesday.

[dodger]

Mostly good news lately. But then there is this

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...h-care-workers

It's not just Idaho but other states as well:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/09/health-workers-get-panic-buttons-as-covid-deniers-get-violent/

In a hospital in Branson, Missouri, as many as 400 staff members will have panic buttons added to their identification badges after assaults on staff members tripled amid the pandemic.
...
In Texas, health workers have also faced a spike in hostility and violence. In a press conference last month, the chief nursing executive for Methodist Healthcare System, Jane McCurley, said staff "have been cursed at, screamed at, threatened with bodily harm and even had knives pulled on them."

[12Bass]

It's not just Idaho but other states as well:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...s-get-violent/

This is why I have spent years making arguments for critical thinking, especially where matters of belief are concerned. Misinformation spreads like a virus among those without the inoculation of critical reasoning, and social media has radically accelerated this. Wrongheaded beliefs lead to bad outcomes. This is not an "agree to disagree" scenario. Misguided believers are literally attacking the people who are trying to save them... based on some sort of topsy-turvy notion that people in healthcare are the enemy. Probably not too much of a stretch to call it a form of insanity, yet I personally know a few who are not far removed from this mindset...

[Greasy]

Some idiots were holding a protest in LA about being forced to take the vaccine. The lady with the bullhorn says, why aren't there dead homeless people laying around because of Covid? Homeless dude pushing his cart nearby yells, "because I'm vaccinated you dumb ****"!

He became a hero, and people got him a place to stay over night.

[Lazy8s]

Some idiots were holding a protest in LA about being forced to take the vaccine. The lady with the bullhorn says, why aren't there dead homeless people laying around because of Covid? Homeless dude pushing his cart nearby yells, "because I'm vaccinated you dumb ****"!

He became a hero, and people got him a place to stay over night.

[SubCog]

[Lazy8s]

This is why I have spent years making arguments for critical thinking, especially where matters of belief are concerned. Misinformation spreads like a virus among those without the inoculation of critical reasoning, and social media has radically accelerated this. Wrongheaded beliefs lead to bad outcomes. This is not an "agree to disagree" scenario. Misguided believers are literally attacking the people who are trying to save them... based on some sort of topsy-turvy notion that people in healthcare are the enemy. Probably not too much of a stretch to call it a form of insanity, yet I personally know a few who are not far removed from this mindset...

On a more serious note, I think the critical reasoning argument has one glaring flaw. There was a recent discussion regarding the people who have PHDs that are also staunchly anti-vax. These are not stupid people and I’m sure many of them would claim that their critical thinking > your (not you personally 12bass) critical thinking, with each person thoroughly convinced that the other is misled.

What comes to mind for me is a decade old study that I’ll link in the P&R thread because it crosses into, actually centers around politics and religion. I’ll link it there with a short summary of my thoughts, if anyone is interested.

[SD-[Inc]]

On a more serious note, I think the critical reasoning argument has one glaring flaw. There was a recent discussion regarding the people who have PHDs that are also staunchly anti-vax. These are not stupid people and I’m sure many of them would claim that their critical thinking > your (not you personally 12bass) critical thinking, with each person thoroughly convinced that the other is misled.

What comes to mind for me is a decade old study that I’ll link in the P&R thread because it crosses into, actually centers around politics and religion. I’ll link it there with a short summary of my thoughts, if anyone is interested.

Is it really a critical reasoning issue? Or, is it more of trust of societal norms? I didn't actually perform my own clinical trials and come to a conclusion based on data I collected before I got a vaccine. Instead, I deferred to the CDC and acted based on their guidance. The anti-vax crowd assumes their Facebook feed is a valid source and the CDC is not. This breakdown in trust is what happens when individuals no longer accept the basis of societal norms and rely only on their own anecdotal beliefs instead. How we got there is all P&R material. But, once the foundations of society are corrupted, it's very difficult to return back to a stable state. Can't think of too many examples in history where this happened. Usually this same decadent pattern has ended societies in the past.

[12Bass]

Is it really a critical reasoning issue? Or, is it more of trust of societal norms? I didn't actually perform my own clinical trials and come to a conclusion based on data I collected before I got a vaccine. Instead, I deferred to the CDC and acted based on their guidance. The anti-vax crowd assumes their Facebook feed is a valid source and the CDC is not. This breakdown in trust is what happens when individuals no longer accept the basis of societal norms and rely only on their own anecdotal beliefs instead. How we got there is all P&R material. But, once the foundations of society are corrupted, it's very difficult to return back to a stable state. Can't think of too many examples in history where this happened. Usually this same decadent pattern has ended societies in the past.

It is not simply the CDC pushing vaccination. Medical and scientific authorities, from disparate nations all around the globe, which cover the entire ideological spectrum, are all endorsing vaccination. So, that means that there would have to be a coordinated global conspiracy, involving governments, scientists, and medical authorities who are all in on the nefarious plan, even though many of these nations seldom agree on anything. Obviously, this rabbit hole is the deepest one we've faced yet!

[Nunz]

Is it really a critical reasoning issue? Or, is it more of trust of societal norms? I didn't actually perform my own clinical trials and come to a conclusion based on data I collected before I got a vaccine. Instead, I deferred to the CDC and acted based on their guidance. The anti-vax crowd assumes their Facebook feed is a valid source and the CDC is not. This breakdown in trust is what happens when individuals no longer accept the basis of societal norms and rely only on their own anecdotal beliefs instead. How we got there is all P&R material. But, once the foundations of society are corrupted, it's very difficult to return back to a stable state. Can't think of too many examples in history where this happened. Usually this same decadent pattern has ended societies in the past.

To be fair, the mistrust isn't exactly misguided. There's plenty of legitimate reasons to question and/or not trust the government. It's not like the track record is some shining example.

[bill dennison]

I have been dealing with doctors all year and have come to a glaring conclusion they don't know half what they like you to think


on that note dad just got out of the hospital again took him in Saturday the day after his 91th b-day the 8th

with upper body tremors
the neurology doctor cleared him so it's not that
it may have been a stomach medication that they stopped

or west nile virus has action tremor of the upper extremities and they did a serum test for that they didn't want to do the faster spinal fluid test on him so it will take 6 days to know
but he is better now than he was by about 75% less tremors

[Lazy8s]

Is it really a critical reasoning issue? Or, is it more of trust of societal norms? I didn't actually perform my own clinical trials and come to a conclusion based on data I collected before I got a vaccine. Instead, I deferred to the CDC and acted based on their guidance. The anti-vax crowd assumes their Facebook feed is a valid source and the CDC is not. This breakdown in trust is what happens when individuals no longer accept the basis of societal norms and rely only on their own anecdotal beliefs instead. How we got there is all P&R material. But, once the foundations of society are corrupted, it's very difficult to return back to a stable state. Can't think of too many examples in history where this happened. Usually this same decadent pattern has ended societies in the past.

I do actually think it’s a critical reasoning issue. The problem with it regarding vaccinations though, is that all parties are not deferring to the experts, nor are they taking into account the wide scale, massive success of the vaccinations.

So, while I believe it falls under the critical reasoning umbrella, I also believe the root cause that’s causing a large and very disparete group of people to avoid, ignore, argue against any and all vetted facts and reasoning….I believe that root cause is something more complex than beliefs and ideology.

I posted a link to a study in p&r that opens the door for discussion on how brain structure can lend itself towards certain hard coded beliefs.

[xCLAVEx]

To be fair, the mistrust isn't exactly misguided. There's plenty of legitimate reasons to question and/or not trust the government. It's not like the track record is some shining example.

This. I got vaxxed, but I still don't trust the government. Have always been wary of them but especially so now.

[luxor]

It is not simply the CDC pushing vaccination. Medical and scientific authorities, from disparate nations all around the globe, which cover the entire ideological spectrum, are all endorsing vaccination. So, that means that there would have to be a coordinated global conspiracy, involving governments, scientists, and medical authorities who are all in on the nefarious plan, even though many of these nations seldom agree on anything. Obviously, this rabbit hole is the deepest one we've faced yet!

But there are also things like that letter by the 27 scientists published by The Lancet in February 2020 where they said that they “strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin,” and had claimed that scientists from multiple countries “overwhelmingly conclude that this coronavirus originated in wildlife.”
It turns out that quite a few had conflict of interests and that Peter Daszak, from ecoHealth Alliance was the impulse behind the letter had been financing gain of function research on bat viruses in the Wuhan lab.

This kind of things just erodes the little trust that remains towards experts and governments.

[xCLAVEx]

I have been dealing with doctors all year and have come to a glaring conclusion they don't know half what they like you to think


on that note dad just got out of the hospital again took him in Saturday the day after his 91th b-day the 8th

with upper body tremors
the neurology doctor cleared him so it's not that
it may have been a stomach medication that they stopped

or west nile virus has action tremor of the upper extremities and they did a serum test for that they didn't want to do the faster spinal fluid test on him so it will take 6 days to know
but he is better now than he was by about 75% less tremors

We do what we can to take care of our parents. You're a good son Bill. When my dad had covid I was the only one taking care of him...because I had covid too.

I couldn't rest at all to recover either so I was taking care of my dad while I could barely walk, never able to sleep more than an hour before he needed me.. Not sure how I made it through, but I did.

[acroig]

We do what we can to take care of our parents. You're a good son Bill.

I'll second that.

[Lazy8s]

I'll second that.

Thirded.

[bill dennison]

thanks guys

he seems even better today so here is hoping we can finish this bad year with no more drama

and hope like hell 2022 is better for all here and everyone


……
and I can buy a new RDNA 3 and or a new NV xxx Lovelace card next year

[pax]

Thirded.

Fourted. Take heart guys this is starting to wane finally. 90% vax rates up here in a fairly conservative province I know it can just get better here on out.

[ugly]

But there are also things like that letter by the 27 scientists published by The Lancet in February 2020 where they said that they “strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin,” and had claimed that scientists from multiple countries “overwhelmingly conclude that this coronavirus originated in wildlife.”
It turns out that quite a few had conflict of interests and that Peter Daszak, from ecoHealth Alliance was the impulse behind the letter had been financing gain of function research on bat viruses in the Wuhan lab.

This kind of things just erodes the little trust that remains towards experts and governments.

It only erodes trust because certain media outlets are pushing the narrative for the purpose of eroding trust.

[luxor]

It only erodes trust because certain media outlets are pushing the narrative for the purpose of eroding trust.

I would argue that the fact that media around the world used the letter to debunk "conspiracy theories" that the virus escaped the lab, without doing due diligence first is eroding trust. This is just one of many examples.

[12Bass]

AFAIK, there is no direct evidence that the virus did not occur naturally. It's mostly circumstantial speculation and motivated reasoning. And, yes, some people have an interest in pushing unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. But that doesn't falsify the natural origin hypothesis.

This has eroded my trust in sources pushing conspiracy theories.

[acroig]

Another reminder that P&R talk is not allowed here.

[Payne3d]

Sorry to hear that Lazy.

Got my first dose yesterday (Moderna). No side effects aside from a sore arm.

still alive?