Official Thread: Coronavirus "COVID-19"

[xCLAVEx]

A south Florida doctor is refusing to treat patients who haven’t gotten a vaccination.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/no-vax-no-visit-south-florida-doctor-wont-treat-unvaccinated-patients-in-person/2544042/

About halfway down is her letter to patients. She gives a good list of reason why.

I don't like this creating a second class of patients. What's next, refusing to treat the uninsured when they end up in the ER? This is a slippery slope.

[dodger]

I don't like this creating a second class of patients. What's next, refusing to treat the uninsured when they end up in the ER? This is a slippery slope.

Conflating a lot of different things here, most of which goes into P&R. Hey this is her practice and she can run it however she wants like any other private business as long as it doesn't run afoul of discrimination laws. She'll still do telemedicine with the anti-vaxxers so they still get treatment while also protecting vulnerable folk from anti-vaxxers in her office.

[acroig]

I don't like this creating a second class of patients. What's next, refusing to treat the uninsured when they end up in the ER? This is a slippery slope.

Uninsured patients won't kill you. Unvaccinated patients can.

People need to start taking responsibility for their choices, it's their right, after all.

[Lazy8s]

I don't like this creating a second class of patients. What's next, refusing to treat the uninsured when they end up in the ER? This is a slippery slope.

It's been a slippery slope for as long as doctors have been doing it Clave. My own dad was thrown out (asked to leave, harshly) of his docs office years ago, and I know of several similar cases.

Is it great? Nope, not at all. I don't like it either, but it's like treatment being made available for a deadly and highly contagious disease, but the patient knows better than the doctor...what's the doctor to do?

[xCLAVEx]

It's been a slippery slope for as long as doctors have been doing it Clave. My own dad was thrown out (asked to leave, harshly) of his docs office years ago, and I know of several similar cases.

Is it great? Nope, not at all. I don't like it either, but it's like treatment being made available for a deadly and highly contagious disease, but the patient knows better than the doctor...what's the doctor to do?

Private Dr.s sure they can do what they want as a private business, but there is talk about doing that for public hospitals. That I cannot agree with (and never willl), creating a second class is discrimination no matter how you look at it or try to justify it but any further will go into p&r land so I will just leave it at that. Though I know I'm in the minority on this forum.

[Lazy8s]

Private Dr.s sure they can do what they want as a private business, but there is talk about doing that for public hospitals. That I cannot agree with (and never willl), creating a second class is discrimination no matter how you look at it or try to justify it but any further will go into p&r land so I will just leave it at that. Though I know I'm in the minority on this forum.

You’re not in a minority here I think the general consensus was that, given the cost of treatment for an unvaccinated person, they should pay a higher portion of that cost, as free treatment is available and with the exception of a few people, they are making their own choice to not use it.

I would rather not see anyone go untreated. And I’m grateful I’m not a doctor in a hospital with zero bed space available and having to make that decision. That has to leave a horrible feeling behind.

[xCLAVEx]

You’re not in a minority here I think the general consensus was that, given the cost of treatment for an unvaccinated person, they should pay a higher portion of that cost, as free treatment is available and with the exception of a few people, they are making their own choice to not use it.

I would rather not see anyone go untreated. And I’m grateful I’m not a doctor in a hospital with zero bed space available and having to make that decision. That has to leave a horrible feeling behind.

Agreed. I am fully vaccinated too even though I had covid already so I should be good...for now anyway.

[Java Cool Dude]

Private Dr.s sure they can do what they want as a private business, but there is talk about doing that for public hospitals. That I cannot agree with (and never willl), creating a second class is discrimination no matter how you look at it or try to justify it but any further will go into p&r land so I will just leave it at that. Though I know I'm in the minority on this forum.

I understand where you coming from, but there are many precedents for prioritizing responsible people over those who intentionally throw themselves in harm's way; liver transplants for instance are denied to those on drugs or consume alcohol, or rather, they get sent way back in the line.

[Java Cool Dude]

Agreed. I am fully vaccinated too even though I had covid already so I should be good...for now anyway.

If we go by recent studies, you're more protected than anyone else out there! Use your powers responsibly please

[SubCog]

I vote we restrict hospital beds to only people who get the vaccine. For those who refuse, we just grant them prescriptions for all the Ivermectin they want.

[Greasy]

I vote we restrict hospital beds to only people who get the vaccine. For those who refuse, we just grant them prescriptions for all the Ivermectin they want.

Don't forget Vit C, D Zinc, etc. Good luck good buddy. It's just a cold...

I swear if 5-10 years from now I see a daytime lawyer ad. "Did your or a loved one get "insert here" from the covid vaccine?" Call now. I'm building my own rocket and making sure the Earth isn't flat...

[kytprice]

Hopefully my family is very protected. We've all had the virus and are also vaccinated.

[Shapeshifter]

https://www.ktsm.com/news/local-news/ivermectin-causes-sterilization-in-85-percent-of-men-study-finds/

Ivermectin causes sterilization in 85 percent of men, study finds

[pax]

https://www.ktsm.com/news/local-news...n-study-finds/

Ivermectin causes sterilization in 85 percent of men who shouldnt breed, study finds

Fixed.

[andino]

https://www.ktsm.com/news/local-news...n-study-finds/

Ivermectin causes sterilization in 85 percent of men, study finds

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ivermectin-sterility-in-men/

Unproven

The study in question was not published in a credible journal, nor was it hosted by an accredited, reputable institution. In the decade since the study’s supposed 2011 publication, there has been little — if any — related research to confirm its findings. Furthermore, a spokesperson for the U.S. Food and Drug Administration told Snopes that infertility in men is not a known side effect of ivermectin and, as such, is not included in U.S. labeling requirements.

[SubCog]

https://www.ktsm.com/news/local-news...n-study-finds/

Ivermectin causes sterilization in 85 percent of men, study finds

I'm okay with people taking Ivermectin not having children.

[Jay20016]

I'm okay with people taking Ivermectin not having children.

We can make fun of the people here in the states who have had every opportunity to get a vaccine and choose to not do so, but there are a lot of countries around the world that were using it based upon studies that were done by grifters. Many poorer countries who know that the vaccine will be slow to them have to deal with Covid and Delta without this protection that we take for granted.

Lots of Latin American countries were touting it as a means to help lower mortality rates based upon the studies that we are now finding out to be done horribly, if at all, by horrible people looking for fame, dollars, or the world to burn.

So, I'd be careful with the disdain... not everyone has the privilege to deny themselves a life saving shot, but opts to take horse paste.

[UberBeavis]

US Army Medical team called in to support Kootenai Health Amid Covid Surge

This is where I live, in North Idaho. So a lot of people are really sick- so the state legislature is asking to reconvene to make sure that vaccination is not mandated. Part of me thinks this whole place SHOULD be absolutely ravaged by this disease. It's already raging with willful stupidity. A bunch of preppers died last week nearby- those are the people that thought they'd survive a zombie apocalypse/nuclear war. Offed by something that they dismissed as nothing worse than a common flu.

[Lupine]

US Army Medical team called in to support Kootenai Health Amid Covid Surge

This is where I live, in North Idaho. So a lot of people are really sick- so the state legislature is asking to reconvene to make sure that vaccination is not mandated. Part of me thinks this whole place SHOULD be absolutely ravaged by this disease. It's already raging with willful stupidity. A bunch of preppers died last week nearby- those are the people that thought they'd survive a zombie apocalypse/nuclear war. Offed by something that they dismissed as nothing worse than a common flu.

Sigh. Sorry to hear that.

My two older sons attend school nearby, in Spokane. Many of the student families are from Idaho but, honestly, not sure there is much of a difference in mindset. I was there with them going through the registration process, what, 3 weeks ago? And the mindset of many of the people was just mindnumbing. They weren't just anti-mask (anti-vax is probably a given if you're anti-mask), many were MILITANTLY so. Barging through lines, seemingly daring someone to enforce the *must mask* signs, which nobody did.

So far there have been 7 COVID infections at the school, and I'm shocked there haven't been more. My boys are both vaccinated, which only eases my mind slightly. People continue to suffer and die, and these loons just dig their heels in further.

[Greasy]

While I wish everyone would take the vaccine. What Biden announced today is pushing the Federal boundaries. This could end up very messy.

[Pr3tty F1y]

While I wish everyone would take the vaccine. What Biden announced today is pushing the Federal boundaries. This could end up very messy.

Schools have long required immunizations prior to attendance from pre-school through higher education. Health care institutions (i.e., largely private businesses) have required immunizations as terms of employment. The Federal government has long required immunizations for certain professions.

It's not an overreach. Putting pressure on private businesses (or incentivizing them) to impose mandates is really no different than any other initiative the Federal government pushes.

Your options are lie and potentially get caught (and who knows what the consequences would actually legally be - but my guess is that you'd probably just lose your job if your employer required vaccination) or just get the vaccine that the other 50%+ of the population has gotten.

Now, if they could just slip in a vaccine against self-centeredness and ignorance into the COVID injection, we'd be set

Also, we're living this - and yes, at least one-fourth:
[yt]d7lxwFEB6FI[/yt]

[12Bass]

...Now, if they could just slip in a vaccine against self-centeredness and ignorance into the COVID injection, we'd be set

Yeah, that would mostly eliminate the problem...

[Greasy]

This vaccine isn't like the ones kids get. Not a fair comparison. I took it, as did my family. This is pushing the limits of the feds IMO.

[SubCog]

This vaccine isn't like the ones kids get. Not a fair comparison.

How is it different?

[12Bass]

How is it different?

From a medical perspective, my sense is that there's little difference mandating a COVID-19 vaccine versus other vaccines which are already mandatory. The biggest difference is that the older vaccines are not currently highly politicized by one segment of the population.

[MyTMouse]

From a medical perspective, my sense is that there's little difference mandating a COVID-19 vaccine versus other vaccines which are already mandatory. The biggest difference is that the older vaccines are not currently highly politicized by one segment of the population.

except the other vaccines have been around for a very long time, are more effective, and have a much more proven track record so to speak. Not to sure how many healthy people have died from the other mandated vaccines...even if your chances of a serious complication are extremely small, to the family of a loved one who dies from a vaccine it's not a trivial thing to them. As soon as you start forcing people to get a vaccine you are opening yourself up to lawsuits from any family who is adversely affected by it. I'm all for doing whatever you can to get people vaccinated for something like this until you start forcing it then I am 100% against it. People are so willing to give up their freedoms these days I'm thankful for those that will still fight for them even if they are often misguided or fighting for the wrong things. Governments throughout human history have a VERY long record of not giving up extra power once they get it

[Cyko]

Cleaned up the page a little. Let’s keep the explicit P&R talk out of the thread, aka “party” talk.

Thanks all.

[acroig]

A reminder that we have a P&R Covid thread.

[Canesfan2020]

except the other vaccines have been around for a very long time, are more effective, and have a much more proven track record so to speak. Not to sure how many healthy people have died from the other mandated vaccines...even if your chances of a serious complication are extremely small, to the family of a loved one who dies from a vaccine it's not a trivial thing to them. As soon as you start forcing people to get a vaccine you are opening yourself up to lawsuits from any family who is adversely affected by it. I'm all for doing whatever you can to get people vaccinated for something like this until you start forcing it then I am 100% against it. People are so willing to give up their freedoms these days I'm thankful for those that will still fight for them even if they are often misguided or fighting for the wrong things. Governments throughout human history have a VERY long record of not giving up extra power once they get it

You actually aren't opening yourself up for lawsuits.

PREP and CICP.

In most cases your employer isn't administering the vaccine. Also, it's generally understood that workers comp will come into play if proven vaccine was the cause.

Also, the supreme court has addressed compulsory vaccination several times now.

Noting happening right now is new.

[Elysian]

except the other vaccines have been around for a very long time, are more effective, and have a much more proven track record so to speak. Not to sure how many healthy people have died from the other mandated vaccines...even if your chances of a serious complication are extremely small, to the family of a loved one who dies from a vaccine it's not a trivial thing to them. As soon as you start forcing people to get a vaccine you are opening yourself up to lawsuits from any family who is adversely affected by it. I'm all for doing whatever you can to get people vaccinated for something like this until you start forcing it then I am 100% against it. People are so willing to give up their freedoms these days I'm thankful for those that will still fight for them even if they are often misguided or fighting for the wrong things. Governments throughout human history have a VERY long record of not giving up extra power once they get it

I don't know how it is in Canada, but the US has a long history of mandating vaccination, which has stood up to SCOTUS scrutiny time and again.

[xCLAVEx]

except the other vaccines have been around for a very long time, are more effective, and have a much more proven track record so to speak. Not to sure how many healthy people have died from the other mandated vaccines...even if your chances of a serious complication are extremely small, to the family of a loved one who dies from a vaccine it's not a trivial thing to them. As soon as you start forcing people to get a vaccine you are opening yourself up to lawsuits from any family who is adversely affected by it. I'm all for doing whatever you can to get people vaccinated for something like this until you start forcing it then I am 100% against it. People are so willing to give up their freedoms these days I'm thankful for those that will still fight for them even if they are often misguided or fighting for the wrong things. Governments throughout human history have a VERY long record of not giving up extra power once they get it

The other vaccines are true vaccines, meaning they prevent infection or stop it outright. This one is more like an immune booster. Proven to help when you do get infected, yes considerably, but it's not a true vaccine because it doesn't prevent infection at all.

[Sasquach]

The other vaccines are true vaccines, meaning they prevent infection or stop it outright. This one is more like an immune booster. Proven to help when you do get infected, yes considerably, but it's not a true vaccine because it doesn't prevent infection at all.

Isnt that how all vaccines work though?
They make the body create antibodies that fight off the infection.
The "full" vaccines make sure the body fights it off and kills it completely.
These coronavirus vaccine "boosters" seem to only hold off the infection from getting a strong foothold in the body.


Seems like the Coronavirus needs several boosters in order for the body to get a good grasp of the situation especially now that a third booster is being considered or administered in limited quantities.

[Pr3tty F1y]

The other vaccines are true vaccines, meaning they prevent infection or stop it outright. This one is more like an immune booster. Proven to help when you do get infected, yes considerably, but it's not a true vaccine because it doesn't prevent infection at all.

This flatly wrong. This vaccine is a vaccine, no ifs, ands, or buts. It works on the exact same principles.

The flu vaccine is hardly 100% effective. We're usually lucky if it's 50% due to variants - but still totally a vaccine.

But what is 100% true is that this vaccine is no different than others. You can have different types of mechanisms be it inactivated, live-attenuated, messenger RNA (mRNA), subunit/recombinant/polysaccharide/conjugate, toxoid, or viral vector vaccines - but they all are meant to prompt an immune response the same way.

[Nagorak]

The other vaccines are true vaccines, meaning they prevent infection or stop it outright. This one is more like an immune booster. Proven to help when you do get infected, yes considerably, but it's not a true vaccine because it doesn't prevent infection at all.

This is flat out not true. Other vaccines are not anywhere 100% effective either. In some people they fail to give lasting immunity for whatever reason. This happened with my sister and the hepatitis vaccine. She was tested before going on a trip and it was discovered she had developed no immunity so had to get another shot. In fact, a lot of news when the COVID vaccines came out was how surprisingly effective they were. That was before the mutations from the Delta variant, which makes it so the vaccines are no longer perfectly matched for the virus. Boosters might improve that if they are made for newer variants.

[xCLAVEx]

This flatly wrong. This vaccine is a vaccine, no ifs, ands, or buts. It works on the exact same principles.

The flu vaccine is hardly 100% effective. We're usually lucky if it's 50% due to variants - but still totally a vaccine.

But what is 100% true is that this vaccine is no different than others. You can have different types of mechanisms be it inactivated, live-attenuated, messenger RNA (mRNA), subunit/recombinant/polysaccharide/conjugate, toxoid, or viral vector vaccines - but they all are meant to prompt an immune response the same way.

This is flat out not true. Other vaccines are not anywhere 100% effective either. In some people they fail to give lasting immunity for whatever reason. This happened with my sister and the hepatitis vaccine. She was tested before going on a trip and it was discovered she had developed no immunity so had to get another shot. In fact, a lot of news when the COVID vaccines came out was how surprisingly effective they were. That was before the mutations from the Delta variant, which makes it so the vaccines are no longer perfectly matched for the virus. Boosters might improve that if they are made for newer variants.

Not going to argue, but it is 100% true that this "vaccine" doesn't prevent infection like the polio vaccine does (for example, one of several). I wish it did, but it doesn't. It does increase survivability when the inevitable infection occurs so it is still useful. That's as far as I will go on the matter.

[AllexxisF1]

Uh, the polio vaccine isn't 100% either.

No vaccine is 100% full-proof.

[Jay20016]

The other vaccines are true vaccines, meaning they prevent infection or stop it outright. This one is more like an immune booster. Proven to help when you do get infected, yes considerably, but it's not a true vaccine because it doesn't prevent infection at all.

The idea that there are "true" vaccines and the COVID ones are not is just laughable. The reason that you're seeing break through cases for the COVID vaccine is that there are currently ~200k new cases a day being discovered, and who knows how many others undiagnosed floating around. We are literally swimming in the virus with how people are protecting their 'freedums' and refusing to get a shot that has been researched for over a decade now.

Look at the chicken pox vaccine that came out after you and I were kids. The rate of vaccination is high, cases have plummeted, hospitalizations are a fraction of what they were and the deaths from it are in the single/double digits per year.

Why is it so effective? Because we've made so few hosts for the virus to thrive in, that your chance of coming into contact with it is small, which leads to the protection we have. Varivax is one of the chicken pox 'only' vaccines and has a efficacy of about 85% from infection, and a 100% from severe infection (sounds familiar …. ) Would you put your body at risk with a family of anti-vaxxers who have a localized outbreak? Do you trust your "100% immunity" to chicken pox by being locked inside with them for days on end?

Breakthrough infections are possible with any of your so called "100% immune" vaccines because the idea is to not just protect yourself from the virus, it is to get society as a whole to a level that your chance of contracting the virus is small but also to severely limit the chance you would even come in contact with it.

Science does not **** around with those kind of 'fully immune' claims, 99.9% protection will still be talked with minor caution despite the preponderance of evidence that the risks are infinitesimally small. No product is made 100% the same, no procedure is followed 100%, no two doses are identical, no two bodies are identical. There are so many different variables that could cause 'issues' that even when the shots are proven safe and effective, there are still outliers, this doesn't mean that something is wrong, its just the fact that there are no two identical people, chemicals, or anything in this world... there is no way for the scientific field to test everything to be able to make that claim without it sounding like hyperbole.

The current covid vaccines are vaccines. Period. End of sentence.

[Canesfan2020]

Well, ****. I've been duped. Polio and covid are different vaccines thus the covid isn't real. Maybe I can get my doctor to suck it out.

[AllexxisF1]

Wait, who needs what sucked now?

[acroig]

The current covid vaccines are vaccines. Period. End of sentence.

Close thread then?