Official Thread: Coronavirus "COVID-19"

[Sound_Card]

51 percent of CA is fully vaccinated which is far from enough to deal with Delta and newer variants.
Also, pretty much all of hospitalized patients are either not vaccinated, or short of full vaccination: f*** around and find out
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.des...s-unvaccinated

60% are at least partially vaccinated and you have to take into account those with anti-bodies. Regardless you are at the level needed to achieve herd immunity. Which circles back to realistic expectations. Good news is your article is that no one is dying and the good to come out of that is you have 1000 more people with anti-bodies.

7 day average is still 1 death for the country.

[acroig]

no, the post about realistic expectations. The rest of what you wrote is still PnR'ish.

Can we discuss it without making it blue/red to avoid the P&R talk?

[acroig]

7 day average is still 1 death for the country.

The issue, as I see it, is having hospitals full up with unvaccinated COVID cases.

[Sound_Card]

I wish insurers would start denying unvaccinated patients who have had the option to take a shot and turned it down.

That's opening a can of worms. But by that logic, I can make a case that insurance should cut diabetics off. That I can assure you what is adding to the cost of healthcare especially when you factor in the collateral damage that sugar eaters do from heart disease, kidney failure, liver failure, etc.

Again, ethics, realistic expectations, yadda yadda.

[Sound_Card]

Can we discuss it without making it blue/red to avoid the P&R talk?

Not taking that chance, sorry.

[Lazy8s]

Here’s a write up including a map of where surges are occurring due to low vaccination rates.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/covid-cases-rise-in-us-counties-with-low-vaccination-rates-as-delta-variant-spreads.html

This is pertinent and bears repeating.

“There will continue to be an increase in cases among unvaccinated Americans and in communities with low vaccination rates, particularly given the spread of the more transmissible delta variant,” White House coronavirus response coordinator Jeff Zients said at news briefing last week. Virtually all Covid hospitalizations and deaths, 99.5%, are occurring among unvaccinated people, U.S. officials say.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/08/covid-vaccines-nearly-all-deaths-hospitalizations-among-unvaccinated.html

[Lazy8s]

That's opening a can of worms. But by that logic, I can make a case that insurance should cut diabetics off. That I can assure you what is adding to the cost of healthcare especially when you factor in the collateral damage that sugar eaters do from heart disease, kidney failure, liver failure, etc.

Again, ethics, realistic expectations, yadda yadda.

Diabetes isn’t contagious.

[acroig]

Not taking that chance, sorry.

OK, well PM me then, I want to understand what you think on this.

[acroig]

Diabetes isn’t contagious.

Exactly!

[SD-[Inc]]

I wish insurers would start denying unvaccinated patients who have had the option to take a shot and turned it down.

Not sure why they seek treatment from medical professionals. Aren’t they concerned of potential side effects?

[koralis]

About CA 60% rate? LA hospitals are full of Covid cases from unvaccinated people.

It should be noted that vaccination rates are not homogenous... they're clumpy. If someone is not vaccinated they're more likely to hang out with other people that aren't vaccinated, and vice versa. Realistically, this means that people that are vaccinated may very well have "herd immunity" within their community, and the unvaccinated community has no protection whatsoever... if someone gets it it'll blow through that group like wildfire.

The problem is in defining the herd. So it's not completely crazy to say that the rates are theoretically good enough for herd immunity and still have hospitals with a lot of patients.

That said, 61% still isn't at the level most doctors say we need to get to for the herd immunity to be present at the wider-society level.

[acroig]

The problem is in defining the herd.

Is it though? Can we not infer that your local community (town, city) you live in is your herd?

[Nascar24]

So the Delta surge is beginning for all the unvaccinated individuals. hmmm. What new strain is this going to lead to and new vaccine that will be required.

[Sasquach]

So the Delta surge is beginning for all the unvaccinated individuals. hmmm. What new strain is this going to lead to and new vaccine that will be required.

Soon it'll go from:
"Not getting the vaccine....its not safe!"

to

"Not getting the vaccine....I havent died yet"

[Jay20016]

60% of California has been vaccinated. That's about what is required for herd immunity. You are not going to get much higher than that number without overreaching and violating rights.

Then what is your plan for when new variants eat through the tenuous protection they offer? How do you get herd immunity for the rapidly changing virus? How do you combat the whack a mole approach? What is the next step? What is the way to prevent needless deaths?

If you can’t answer or don’t want to, kindly shut the < redacted > and sit down, you’re not helping. Belly aching about over reach as millions have died across the globe to this is the epitome of being selfish. I hope it does not affect you in the ways it has affected me and my family, but if it must in order for you to see how childish you look about having to wear a piece of fabric over your nose and mouth, then so be it. I don’t wish suffering on you, but if you have to touch the hot stove, c’est la vie, hopefully you don’t take someone else down with you, and if you do, hopefully you’re able to have the closure to be present while they’re sick or put in the ground, as so many families over the last year and half were denied, mine including, multiple times.

The false bravado and machismo some have exhibited, and continue to exhibit through this is nothing short of magical. Cowards, wimps, acting tough to try and prove some sort of manliness while spiting their face. Men handle business and take care of their own and strangers, children whine endlessly about perceived slights aimed at protecting others. Men understand we are all connected, children think only of themselves. Men understand empathy, compassion, and a greater good and have the cajones put others in front of themselves, children lash out and do the opposite of what they should be doing if they really wanted to see the end of this pandemic. How nonsensical is it that if they really don’t want a ‘new normal’ then why aren’t they out there to try and eradicate it through actions instead of cynicism. Oh, right, they’re cowards, and narcissists, and self indulgent, and suffer from overly inflated egos….

I genuinely pity people like you.

That's opening a can of worms. But by that logic, I can make a case that insurance should cut diabetics off. That I can assure you what is adding to the cost of healthcare especially when you factor in the collateral damage that sugar eaters do from heart disease, kidney failure, liver failure, etc.

Again, ethics, realistic expectations, yadda yadda.

Is COVID hereditary? No, horrible analogy then.

[koralis]

Is it though? Can we not infer that your local community (town, city) you live in is your herd?

Ask a shut-in... a herd of near 1. Ask someone that lives in a neighborhood filled with people that believe in vaccines. Assuming they hang out with those same people, shop in the same grocery stores, etc, then your herd is the neighborhood.

If someone lives in that same suburban neighborhood, but travels a half hour to go into the city and hang out in bars on a friday night, their herd just got a hell of a lot bigger. If it's the same bar every friday night, the herd is smaller than if they do a bar crawl to 3 new places every friday night... more people to be exposed to.

If someone lives in a safe neighborhood, but goes to visit unvaccinated relatives regularly, their herd immunity number is negligible. They're protected by the vaccine itself, not the nebulous knock-on effect of "herd-immunity." If that person lived in a safe neighborhood and wasn't themselves vaccinated, then they're at the same risk factor as their family... the herd-immunity levels of their neighborhood don't really matter squat.. the neighbors won't be the vector, but it doesn't magically balance out the familial risk factors.


But yes, you're right, as a "rule-of-thumb" they just do communities because it makes the math easier and doesn't require any detailed knowledge. My point is simply that talking about a vaccination rate doesn't accurately represent real risk because you may never be exposed (even second or third degrees) to the unvaccinated people at all, or you may be swimming in them.

[Greasy]

Looks like our return to office is set for Oct. Yay, I can hardly wait for that.

I've been working from home for years, and now suddenly being on a floor with 140 people that only has 30 work stations is going to make me more productive...

[acroig]

But yes, you're right, as a "rule-of-thumb" they just do communities because it makes the math easier and doesn't require any detailed knowledge. My point is simply that talking about a vaccination rate doesn't accurately represent real risk because you may never be exposed (even second or third degrees) to the unvaccinated people at all, or you may be swimming in them.

I get it, I was trying to say that this should not be this hard.

[stormy13]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/24-year-old-who-needed-double-lung-transplant-wishes-hed-been-vaccinated-for-covid-19-180810400.html

A 24-year-old Georgia man who contracted COVID-19 and required a double lung transplant, and who remains hospitalized, has expressed his regret he did not get vaccinated for the virus, which has so far killed more than 607,000 Americans.

Blake Bargatze had told his parents he was putting off receiving a COVID-19 vaccine because he felt uncertain about its possible side effects, WSB-TV in Atlanta reported.

[Sound_Card]

Then what is your plan for when new variants eat through the tenuous protection they offer? How do you get herd immunity for the rapidly changing virus? How do you combat the whack a mole approach? What is the next step? What is the way to prevent needless deaths?

You're not going to get 100&#37; vaccination, 90% or even 80%. What is not going to work nor ever was working is perpetual and indefinite mandates and emergency powers. It goes back to what I said before, realist expectations. Some things you are just going to have to accept. Life is hard. Personally, I'm young, fit, no pre-existing condition. Not getting it.

If you can’t answer or don’t want to, kindly shut the **** up and sit down

If I wrote this, I would be banned no questions asked. Keep it civil, because I'm rather handicapped here in what I can reply with and you know that.

Is COVID hereditary? No, horrible analogy then.

That's type 1 and was not meant to be 1 for 1 analogous. I said it was a can of worms. You can prevent type 2 and that is lifestyle.

[Trunks0]

It's not just about you, its about others. You not getting it, puts others at risk.

[Sound_Card]

It's not just about you, its about others. You not getting it, puts others at risk.

We are worried about the unvaccinated getting the unvaccinated sick. At this point, it's pretty safe to assume, it's been their choice. What are you worried about?

[Java Cool Dude]

We are worried about the unvaccinated getting the unvaccinated sick. At this point, it's pretty safe to assume, it's been their choice. What are you worried about?

I'm worried about a few things:
My son who can't get vaccinated yet.
New mutations that could invalidated my current vaccination.
I have to go back to wearing masks because the honor system didn't work and anti-vaxxers stopped wearing their masks the moment the mandate was called off.

[Lupine]

We are worried about the unvaccinated getting the unvaccinated sick. At this point, it's pretty safe to assume, it's been their choice. What are you worried about?

Where is a brick wall emoji when you need one.

The unvaccinated are increasing the risk of new variants, the risk to vaccinated people getting sick, the risk over overall transmission, the risk to those who CAN'T be vaccinated. List goes on.

I get it. Logic doesn't work. Probably the only thing that would move you would be losing a close loved one. You know, someone who actually matters. I hope that doesn't happen. And I hope those who HAVE lost someone and are reading this or the countless other anti-vax content out there have an extra measure of grace in them. Seeing / living the impact directly, while watching others be dismissive of it, adds a whole new element to the tragedy.

[Trunks0]

Man you guys got it rough :\

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/16/22579247/covid-vaccine-misinformation-delta-antivirus

The United States surgeon general published a report this week calling for a whole-of-society response to health misinformation, calling it a “serious threat to public health.” It took a sweeping look at a wide range of misinformation, on everything from masks to unproven drugs.

But the focus of Surgeon General Vivek Murthy’s remarks circled back to vaccines. Daily vaccination rates have stalled out at around 500,000 shots per day, and in many pockets of the country, a majority of people aren’t getting immunized. The US is struggling to bump those numbers up.

Misinformation about the COVID-19 vaccines spreads fast, and so do the accompanying consequences. The rapid spread of the more transmissible Delta coronavirus variant makes them even easier to see. Case counts are going up around the country, particularly in areas with low vaccination rates. Every person hospitalized with COVID-19 in Los Angeles County is unvaccinated. In Louisiana, 94 percent of COVID-19 cases since May were among the unvaccinated.

In Missouri, the new center of the Delta-driven US surge, health care workers are exhausted by the avoidable COVID-19 cases and deaths they see every day. They’re frustrated that people in their communities aren’t getting vaccinated. In addition to fighting the virus, health officials are battling theories that the vaccine is causing the spike in cases, apathy from young people who think they don’t need to get vaccinated, and the false idea that the vaccine contains a microchip. With much of the population in the state avoiding shots, the virus is inevitable....

[Sound_Card]

Where is a brick wall emoji when you need one.

I get it. Logic doesn't work.

Well just like the flu, it's going to mutate. Being vaccinated does not prevent you from being a carrier or from it mutating. My rhetoric is not a question of anti-pro vax. My rhetoric is how far are we going with this and when is the stopping point.

[Pr3tty F1y]

Well just like the flu, it's going to mutate. Being vaccinated does not prevent you from being a carrier or from it mutating. My rhetoric is not a question of anti-pro vax. My rhetoric is how far are we going with this and when is the stopping point.

The sun is going to burn out in 7 to 8 billion years. I guess we should all just give up now, stop eating, and die.

There, that's how far we can take this. So can we pull this whatabout-ism back a little bit to something a little less... stupid?

I get that "it's my body, it's my choice" but that's also saying I don't give a **** about the people around me. There's no way around it. Either you care about such things or your the type of person who doesn't - which probably means that you're the type of human most other humans don't like being around (but humor you because that have to). People can change, but it takes effort and if you don't want to take that effort don't expect people to go out of their way to be accommodating of your don't-give-a-****-about-anyone-else views (and also, please come to an acceptance of those views as they are who you are at this point and time and hence why you're getting these reaction - hell, maybe you need these reactions as maybe no one else wants to deal with your views... maybe...).

[Jay20016]

0

You're not going to get 100&#37; vaccination, 90% or even 80%. What is not going to work nor ever was working is perpetual and indefinite mandates and emergency powers. It goes back to what I said before, realist expectations. Some things you are just going to have to accept. Life is hard. Personally, I'm young, fit, no pre-existing condition. Not getting it.

If I wrote this, I would be banned no questions asked. Keep it civil, because I'm rather handicapped here in what I can reply with and you know that.



That's type 1 and was not meant to be 1 for 1 analogous. I said it was a can of worms. You can prevent type 2 and that is lifestyle.

Four of my aunt's no longer walk this earth because of this virus. 3 were exposed at the same place as the people entrusted with their care said the same "my body, my choice" when bringing covid into their assisted living center. Those pesky mask mandates for the unvaccinated, those moments of over reach that were so dastardly in your mind. They were on lock down and did not leave their facility, and it came in through the workers. What I wouldn't give to reach over and give them a last hug, what I wouldn't do to let my mom say goodbye in person instead of over a ****ing computer with digitized wheezing as the soundtrack...

So, yeah, you're not getting it. You expose others, you risk others, you don't care. You won't take the vaccine and you won't wear a mask, so how else is anyone but to think of you as selfish and uncaring because you're young and fit, right? You'll be good, but everyone else, **** them....

As for just living with it, we could've done so much more early on like many civilized counties across the globe who put in the work early, took the pain, and emerged with a sense of normalcy and total covid case and death counts that resemble that of daily rates in some states. Worse, their doing all of this with a fraction of the vaccinating we've done, so yeah, try again. It might be late, but it isn't impossible because we have other examples in the world right now.

It comes down to understanding that we all have someone other than ourselves we care about and if I think of how I feel as a result of losing them, that I don't want to put that on my worst enemy, so I mask up, get vaccinated, play it safe so that others don't have to experience it. If I hadn't lost them, nothing would change because there are a host of others that I care about and can only imagine what life would be without them. Others, friends, strangers all have the same thing, so I act with my people in mind in hopes that others do for me and mine.

Each passing post just shows how broken you are because you lack empathy. We should understand others because you see their struggle in your own, and if you can't see that struggle or loss, does that mean you have no one you care for? Is that why you refuse to act with someone else in mind? What a horrible existence.

And, for all the hesitancy because of the "unproven" vaccines and unknown long term side effects, what about having covid? Is that really better considering there are athletes who have documented long term side effects that affects their system and performance.

[Sound_Card]

The sun is going to burn out in 7 to 8 billion years. I guess we should all just give up now, stop eating, and die.

There, that's how far we can take this. So can we pull this whatabout-ism back a little bit to something a little less... stupid?

I get that "it's my body, it's my choice" but that's also saying I don't give a **** about the people around me. There's no way around it. Either you care about such things or your the type of person who doesn't - which probably means that you're the type of human most other humans don't like being around (but humor you because that have to). People can change, but it takes effort and if you don't want to take that effort don't expect people to go out of their way to be accommodating of your don't-give-a-****-about-anyone-else views (and also, please come to an acceptance of those views as they are who you are at this point and time and hence why you're getting these reaction - hell, maybe you need these reactions as maybe no one else wants to deal with your views... maybe...).

I'm vaccinated against insults. I have heard much worse
I respect the bravado though.

my body my choice - was a spin on abortion. Ill advised in hindsight, but I entertained it. Truth is, I don't want it because I don't know where this is going, nor do I think any of you really do. Being in my environment, I can safely say I am in the herd, based on where I work.

[Lupine]

Alright. I think we (definitely including me) need to take a step back from the making it personal stage. Which is crazy hard in this situation, because the impacts of Covid-19 couldn't be much more personal.

So while this IS deeply personal, lets not revert to attacking the messenger. But, Sound_Card, you do need to understand that the flippant way you present your position absolutely makes it appear that your empathy toward others is lacking. And entering a thread with your middle finger extended probably isn't going to bring forth the most constructive reactions.

[Pr3tty F1y]

I'm vaccinated against insults. I have heard much worse
I respect the bravado though.

my body my choice - was a spin on abortion. Ill advised in hindsight, but I entertained it. Truth is, I don't want it because I don't know where this is going, nor do I think any of you really do. Being in my environment, I can safely say I am in the herd, based on where I work.

Alright. I think we (definitely including me) need to take a step back from the making it personal stage. Which is crazy hard in this situation, because the impacts of Covid-19 couldn't be much more personal.

So while this IS deeply personal, lets not revert to attacking the messenger. But, Sound_Card, you do need to understand that the flippant way you present your position absolutely makes it appear that your empathy toward others is lacking. And entering a thread with your middle finger extended probably isn't going to bring forth the most constructive reactions.

I can see being afraid of getting the vaccine in December or January or February - but we're months out and hundreds of millions of doses in and there is nothing negative related to the vaccine except for the fact that over 99&#37; of hospital admissions for COVID are in the unvaccinated.

And the problem is that the majority of anti-vaxxers have, themselves, been vaccinated against a multitude of other diseases.

A basic understanding of science tells you where this is going. The more people that get vaccinated, the less spread. The less people vaccinated means more spread and the greater likelihood of a mutation that will make the current iteration of the vaccine less effective or ineffective.

The vaccines available right now, at this very moment, for free are EXTREMELY effective with current COVID variants and also safe - this can't be disputed no matter what talking head, political party, or random lady on the bus says. The proof isn't just people saying it - it's literally that the vaccines were tested, found safe and effective, approved and distributed en mass and the ill effects are exactly what you'd expect from a vaccine that is built to stimulate an immune response - potentially a few hours or a day of discomfort. You're more likely to die or be permanently maimed in a car crash than from the vaccine (and I'm sure you haven't stopped driving).

My argument is, even if you don't think you need it yourself because "you have an immune system" - despite that fact that it's folks immune systems that are actually killing them/permanently scaring their lungs and damaging other organs in response to a COVID infection and not the COVID virus itself - what about your family, friend, co-workers, neighbors, etc? You may not like all of them but you're probably OK with at least some of them. Even if you don't think you need the vaccine yourself, getting the vaccine not only protects you but protects those who are around you (i.e., be a good human).

Not getting vaccinated is not only ****ing you over, it's ****ing over people around you and - with enough stupid/ill-informed/angry/butt hurt/choose your negative and anti-social frame of mind/etc. people all of the things that no one likes like masks and shutdowns will happen again.

Maybe some folks are just assholes or extremely miserable and just want something to complain about so they want to risk that or hope that such things happen again. That would be insane, but it's also insane not to protect yourself. A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - and COVID isn't going away. It's here to stay, so at least getting vaccinated will turn the tide on the pandemic with a little casualties as possible. But if you're up for trying your luck until you get it, that's on you - but you also bear the responsibility for anyone else you infect and -from what I've seen of anti-vaxxers, of course they'll say they care about other people - but actions speak louder than words and people can tell who you really are.

[Greasy]

I don't judge people that refuse the covid vaccine. Wish they would, but as I said earlier. The majority of the variants are coming from poor nations.

I saw an article today that compared the Chinese vaccines to ours, and ours had 10X more antibodies produced compared to theirs. The China vax was basically the equivalent to a person that had one variant of the virus, and recovered.

TLDR: This isn't going away. It's the new flu.

[Lupine]

Study on long haul covid

With a total of 3,762 people quizzed across 56 countries, the international study is the biggest and most comprehensive look yet at how 'long haulers' continue to have problems way beyond the normal timescale of COVID-19.

https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-links-more-than-200-symptoms-to-long-covid

[bill dennison]

Refusing Vaccinations
In fact, nationwide, 1 in 4 hospital workers who have direct contact with patients had not received a single dose of a COVID-19 vaccine by the end of May, according to a WebMD and Medscape Medical News analysis of data collected by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) from 2,500 hospitals across the U.S.

Among the nation's 50 largest hospitals, the percentage of unvaccinated health care workers appears to be even larger, about 1 in 3. Vaccination rates range from a high of 99% at Houston Methodist Hospital, which was the first in the nation to mandate the shots for its workers, to a low between 30% and 40% at some hospitals in Florida.

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210628/huge-number-of-hospital-workers

[dodger]

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid...spital-workers

Yeah Houston Methodist was all over the local news when they were in the middle of that. Seems like they set off some dominos as more hospital systems are starting to mandate. Once the FDA does full approval it's going to be harder for them to be laissez faire about it but that won't be until next year at the earliest.

There's an article at The Atlantic saying Missouri is starting to vaccinate more. I guess losing loved ones is really what it takes to move the needle a little. I'd link but paywall (though is free on apple news even if you don't pay for +)

[Lupine]

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid...spital-workers

Yep. And two of those are in my family. A bro-in-law, a nurse, who had some temp throat issues after 1st Pfizer shot that he assumed was an adverse reaction. And his spouse, my sister and also a nurse.

My personal opinion is that hospital workers with patient contact should be a vaccine required group.

[Lazy8s]

Unfortunately it seems losing loved ones/friends (to Pr3tty F1y’s) point, or contracting the virus themselves is what it takes for a number of people to understand just how serious this is.

I don’t understand where the disconnect is, but I would think that someone would have to believe that over 600k dead in the US and over 4mil worldwide is a lie, a hoax.

2 first responders in my family refused the vaccine, then both caught it. Another first responder (25 year nurse) tried to reason with them and told me they literally thought it was a hoax.

I can respect a person’s right to make their own decisions, but I don’t respect that particular decision itself. The dead don’t get to come back for a do over.

[KAC]

Clearly you never watched a zombie movie.

[koralis]

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article252816303.html

An analysis of more than 10,000 people admitted to more than a 140 hospitals across the nation found that a class of medications called statins, together with blood pressure drugs, reduced in-hospital COVID-19 death by 40&#37; among those who took them prior to being admitted.

The reduced risk of death was slightly higher for those taking statins alone (46%) compared to people only taking high blood pressure medication (27%).

The same held true of COVID-19 patients’ odds of severe disease: those only taking statins benefited from a 25% lower risk of developing severe disease and those taking blood pressure medications had a 11% lower risk.
...
Researchers say the drugs’ benefits may stem from their ability to reduce inflammation in the body, which is known to cause many of the severe outcomes in COVID-19 patients with serious cases.

[Pr3tty F1y]

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