AMD 4th Generation APU Reviews ("Kaveri")

[Redeemed]

Sorry, but for most of the people that buy cheap computers, the graphics do not matter. That's just how it is. And if you do care about graphics but are cost restrained, there are better alternatives than buying an APU. On the desktop these chips are in a weird spot where they aren't really suitable for most people. Now, in HTPCs, other small form factor systems, and mobile the story will be a little different.

As for HSA, until we are shown some significant demonstrations it's a moot point. Same goes for Mantle.

For most people graphics don't matter?

Sooo... why is Cirrus Logic not the premier video card manufacturer? If graphics didn't matter I'd figure they'd be making a killing right about now.


Also, I suppose if graphics don't matter and HSA is irrelevant, Intel must just loving tossing money away what with all their focus on integrated graphics and what not. Yeah... that's it.

[The Luggage]

The graphical abilities of the APU do matter, as they the first indicator of the compute power inside the chip. "Kaveri" is the first processor to include HSA hardware features, and that's going to change the computing landscape. Is it instant? No, but neither was any other major innovation we take for granted today. How long was it before apps started to leverage x64? SSE? The position here is the same, except you've got the near entire SoC industry in a single foundation with two guys trying to do it all on their own.

Sorry, but for most of the people that buy cheap computers, the graphics do not matter. That's just how it is. And if you do care about graphics but are cost restrained, there are better alternatives than buying an APU. On the desktop these chips are in a weird spot where they aren't really suitable for most people. Now, in HTPCs, other small form factor systems, and mobile the story will be a little different.

As for HSA, until we are shown some significant demonstrations it's a moot point. Same goes for Mantle.

[caveman-jim]

The graphical abilities of the APU do matter, as they the first indicator of the compute power inside the chip. "Kaveri" is the first processor to include HSA hardware features, and that's going to change the computing landscape. Is it instant? No, but neither was any other major innovation we take for granted today. How long was it before apps started to leverage x64? SSE? The position here is the same, except you've got the near entire SoC industry in a single foundation with two guys trying to do it all on their own.

[The Luggage]

This business of comparing performance against systems with a separate GPU is rubbish, because 99% of people don't have a system they can put a graphics card in, and about 99% of them wouldn't even if they did have a such a system.

Laptops are the big sellers, and most people who buy a desktop these days are getting all in one systems.

My brother, for instance, watches youtube, types an occasional word document, and plays a few games. The cpu performance doesn't make the damnedest bit of difference to word or firefox, and the system will be gpu bottle-necked for the games, so the APU with the best GPU makes perfect sense.

These all in one systems are built like laptops without a battery or keyboard. Can anyone show me an all in one computer with a better intel CPU/whoever GPU combination that will actually be cheaper than the APU design from AMD? How about a laptop with an intel cpu, and either internal graphics or an AMD or NVIDIA GPU ,that has better GPU performance than the AMD APU, for the same or less money?



Who is manufacturing computers with that combination? What people like us might build really isn't the point for 99% of the market. How much extra does it cost to get a motherboard to support the CPU and external GPU, compared with what most people are buying, with everything made as an all in one unit, with one board, and no expansion cards?

And most that 99% you keep talking about don't care about graphics, so the graphical prowess of an APU doesn't matter. They'd be better served by the cheapest CPU possible.

Really, the place these new APUs are going to shine will be in mobile. I'm interested in seeing the performance numbers once some laptops show up.

[drumphil]

This business of comparing performance against systems with a separate GPU is rubbish, because 99% of people don't have a system they can put a graphics card in, and about 99% of them wouldn't even if they did have a such a system.

Laptops are the big sellers, and most people who buy a desktop these days are getting all in one systems.

My brother, for instance, watches youtube, types an occasional word document, and plays a few games. The cpu performance doesn't make the damnedest bit of difference to word or firefox, and the system will be gpu bottle-necked for the games, so the APU with the best GPU makes perfect sense.

These all in one systems are built like laptops without a battery or keyboard. Can anyone show me an all in one computer with a better intel CPU/whoever GPU combination that will actually be cheaper than the APU design from AMD? How about a laptop with an intel cpu, and either internal graphics or an AMD or NVIDIA GPU ,that has better GPU performance than the AMD APU, for the same or less money?

Excuse me but you can get a Haswell Pentium G3220/3240 and 7750 for just as cheap as and AMD apu.

Who is manufacturing computers with that combination? What people like us might build really isn't the point for 99% of the market. How much extra does it cost to get a motherboard to support the CPU and external GPU, compared with what most people are buying, with everything made as an all in one unit, with one board, and no expansion cards?

[bittermann]

There are those whom cannot afford a proper gaming rig, but still want to play today's latest games. Are you really implying any Intel IGP can compare to the Radeon cores of a comparably priced APU? How about any form of content creation where the Radeon cores are utilized?

Pretty sure the APU pulls ahead, and drastically, in such areas. In all other areas I'd say any difference is likely placebo. Web browsing and punching digits into your spreadsheet will likely feel just as snappy on an APU as a comparably price Intel CPU.

Because of the flexibility I'd go with an APU. Not only that, you do have the option of CrossFire w/a 250. Now you're lightyear's ahead of Intel's best IGP performance, not to mention doing any form of content creation where the 250 is properly utilized would, I'd imagine, destroy all of Intel's offerings.

My argument is longevity and overall options with platform. AMD, for the price point they're targeting, have a real winner with their APU's imo.

Excuse me but you can get a Haswell Pentium G3220/3240 and 7750 for just as cheap as and AMD apu. Also you people keep bringing in modern gaming, if so your doing it wrong then. That said my first point makes that mute anyway. We were talking about htpc's and office systems. This b*llshit that amd apu's blow Intel out of the water at those prices is just ridiculous. I was not crapping on AMD apu's, they are excellent for the price but to say outlandish crap like that is stupid.

[The Luggage]

But the whole idea of an APU is it's "all round" capabilities, not just games as in your senario above!

There is no way in hell a "cheap" i3 is as capable as these APU's in all daily use scenarios especially without an addon AMD card!!! That would then defeat the "cheap" equation both cost wise and power wise!!



So the above would cost $230 pitted against an A8-7600 at $118 for every day use and there would be no way in hell you could tell the difference!!

Start playing a game and you'd see the difference immediately.

[Apocalypsee]

You can get a radeon 7750 for $99 and an i3 4130 for $129. That's $60 more than a $169 A10-7700K (all Newegg prices). For an overall system build that $60 is negligable, while giving you a much better performing machine.

I said 'less developed country' not in the USA.

Anyhow when this is released on mobile I gonna get one.

[oozz77]

And those people can buy a cheap i3, pair it with a 7750, and run circles around the APU. Techreport hit in on the head:

But the whole idea of an APU is it's "all round" capabilities, not just games as in your senario above!

There is no way in hell a "cheap" i3 is as capable as these APU's in all daily use scenarios especially without an addon AMD card!!! That would then defeat the "cheap" equation both cost wise and power wise!!

You can get a radeon 7750 for $99 and an i3 4130 for $129. That's $60 more than a $169 A10-7700K (all Newegg prices). For an overall system build that $60 is negligable, while giving you a much better performing machine.

So the above would cost $230 pitted against an A8-7600 at $118 for every day use and there would be no way in hell you could tell the difference!!

[The Luggage]

In less developed country Intel CPU cost significantly more than AMD counterparts. 'Cheap i3' isn't that cheap everywhere, plus adding a graphic card cost significantly more. Of course it runs circles because it cost more, with addition of add-in card these APU would perform MUCH better in games anyway.

One thing I found on AMD (and ATi) is they always have some cool architectural advantages on their side but it needs software to support it such as the old TruForm (primitive n-patches tessellation), Ring Bus memory and Fetch4 on X1x00 series. I really hope there are enough manufacturer to fully support these hUMA, HSA, Mantle things or it just going to waste what it is truly capable of.

You can get a radeon 7750 for $99 and an i3 4130 for $129. That's $60 more than a $169 A10-7700K (all Newegg prices). For an overall system build that $60 is negligable, while giving you a much better performing machine.

[Apocalypsee]

And those people can buy a cheap i3, pair it with a 7750, and run circles around the APU.

In less developed country Intel CPU cost significantly more than AMD counterparts. 'Cheap i3' isn't that cheap everywhere, plus adding a graphic card cost significantly more. Of course it runs circles because it cost more, with addition of add-in card these APU would perform MUCH better in games anyway.

One thing I found on AMD (and ATi) is they always have some cool architectural advantages on their side but it needs software to support it such as the old TruForm (primitive n-patches tessellation), Ring Bus memory and Fetch4 on X1x00 series. I really hope there are enough manufacturer to fully support these hUMA, HSA, Mantle things or it just going to waste what it is truly capable of.

[The Luggage]

There are those whom cannot afford a proper gaming rig, but still want to play today's latest games. Are you really implying any Intel IGP can compare to the Radeon cores of a comparably priced APU? How about any form of content creation where the Radeon cores are utilized?

Pretty sure the APU pulls ahead, and drastically, in such areas. In all other areas I'd say any difference is likely placebo. Web browsing and punching digits into your spreadsheet will likely feel just as snappy on an APU as a comparably price Intel CPU.

Because of the flexibility I'd go with an APU. Not only that, you do have the option of CrossFire w/a 250. Now you're lightyear's ahead of Intel's best IGP performance, not to mention doing any form of content creation where the 250 is properly utilized would, I'd imagine, destroy all of Intel's offerings.

My argument is longevity and overall options with platform. AMD, for the price point they're targeting, have a real winner with their APU's imo.

And those people can buy a cheap i3, pair it with a 7750, and run circles around the APU. Techreport hit in on the head:

We've seen this dynamic with previous APUs, and it's always made for a tough sell on the desktop. Gamers who actually care about graphics performance are better off with discrete video cards that deliver better visuals and smoother frame delivery, while those who don't care about gaming are better served by Intel chips with higher per-thread performance and lower power consumption (which typically leads to lower noise levels.) APUs occupy this awkward middle ground for so-called casual gamers who want something better than an Intel IGP but not as good as a halfway-decent graphics card. As Jerry Seinfeld would say, "who are these people?" Seriously, I've never met one.

[oozz77]

Just to save some time looking at all the sites, the following are some interesting aspects I picked up from a few review sites;

Moorhead said it will take time for a software ecosystem to evolve around the capabilities of HSA-based processers. But the good news for AMD is that it is sharing the load on that task with partners like ARM, Qualcomm, and TI in the HSA Foundation, formed back in 2012 to develop the architecture and promote it.

"The real benefit here comes when there are more applications able to take advantage of HSA. The GPU is great at running parallel workloads, but it just didn't have a lot of control even in the first APU products. Now it does," the analyst said.

"There's a similar thing going on here from when CPUs went from 32-bit to 64-bit, there was a transition period. It's similar here with the move to HSA-enabled systems. It will take time, but AMD has been spending a lot of money over the last four years on supporting this transition."

Next I started to overclock a bit. Starting with the the base clock of 3.7 GHz, I disabled the Core C6 State and Turbo Clock in BIOS, and achieved a stable overclock of 4.1 GHz. Right away I noticed a snappier level of performance, comparable to my FX-8350. While some may scoff at the notion that 4 cores perform almost as well as 8, do bear in mind that there are precious few applications that make use of all the cores in your PC.

As I have been watching AMD, I have seen this march towards the APU and have come t realize that it is the future of computing, whether for business, or pleasure. The integrated graphics core on the CPU makes sense, saves money and offers a decent performance that allows an entry level into gaming with decent graphics that do not come at a price tag that makes you want to consider a second job.

Over the last week I have been using the Kaveri system alongside an i5 system in every day use. This includes Skype, Netflix, Handbrake, decompressing files, music, photo editing even some light gaming. In ever aspect the Kaveri system was snappier and a just plain better computing experience than the i5. While it will not compete with a dedicated graphics gaming machine the Kaveri did okay allow for solid play experience at 720 resolutions in Anno 2070, Bioshock Infinite, Dishonored, Neverwinter and a certain beta that shall remain nameless, the Intel solution struggled with pretty much any gaming I threw at it.

Now if you came here hoping for a bunch of benchmark numbers I am sorry to disappoint. The numbers to me do not tell the story of this chip. There is a saying about the whole being greater than the sum of the parts and the Kaveri is a perfect example of this. Everyone keeps trying to break this chip down into various parts but forget that it is not a bunch of parts thrown together, it is one chip and THAT is how it should be looked at. When you look at in this manner and consider it in the context it is made for this chip is nothing short of amazing.

If it was just what I have seen this week I would be impressed but there is more. Kaveri will make full use of Mantle, HSA and True Audio. These technologies still have a bit before they become mainstream but the fact AMD is already out in front and making full use of this potential is nice to see. This chip has a lot of potential locked up in it, it could get better as it gets older.

If you are looking for a basic computer, one that is not meant for high end gaming or advanced video editing or rendering then Kaveri is the perfect choice for your computer. I will even go a step further, buy an i3 or i5 for such a system makes NO SENSE! The Kaveri is a ton more versatile and has greater potential. The performance and computing experience are outstanding and lower TDP means this chip is design with ITX building in mind. If you are building or buy that family PC then there is only one chip option worth your money.

[Redeemed]

No, just no...absolutely ridiculous statement. I'm not even going to dignify that with much of an answer because a new generation Pentium can do everything as well as an apu and just as cheaply in a htpc or office pc. You say games then an apu is not the target audience as a Pentium can play web browser games just fine also. Heck at the new APU prices a core i3 will stomp over pretty much everything apu for cheaper. And I'm not saying these are bad apu's either but come on.

There are those whom cannot afford a proper gaming rig, but still want to play today's latest games. Are you really implying any Intel IGP can compare to the Radeon cores of a comparably priced APU? How about any form of content creation where the Radeon cores are utilized?

Pretty sure the APU pulls ahead, and drastically, in such areas. In all other areas I'd say any difference is likely placebo. Web browsing and punching digits into your spreadsheet will likely feel just as snappy on an APU as a comparably price Intel CPU.

Because of the flexibility I'd go with an APU. Not only that, you do have the option of CrossFire w/a 250. Now you're lightyear's ahead of Intel's best IGP performance, not to mention doing any form of content creation where the 250 is properly utilized would, I'd imagine, destroy all of Intel's offerings.

My argument is longevity and overall options with platform. AMD, for the price point they're targeting, have a real winner with their APU's imo.

[oozz77]

Hi Crisler,

I agree with almost everything you have pointed out and you made some great points!!

Not going to get into a future "what if's" argument either.

There are no "what if's" as far as future features go; TrueAudio is coming and already being implemented in upcoming games, Mantle is coming as well and will gain momentum (this is the big one), and GPU accelerated applications are already here and will grow exponentially in many other programs without any doubt over the next year or two as it is also helpful to both Intel and Nvidia for speed and offsetting the load on CPU's.

[bittermann]

So I am curious, you would give up a snappier feel to the OS and more versatile potential and use because of a cost difference that amounts to about $50?

Pentiums are solid chips, no denying that but they are a dead end. No upgrade path, no future development that will make them do more than they do now and feel slower in general Windows use.

Now I am not saying they are not less expensive but at this price point you are taking a step backwards.

You changed the target. Not going to get into a future "what if's" argument either.

[Crisler]

No, just no...absolutely ridiculous statement. I'm not even going to dignify that with much of an answer because a new generation Pentium can do everything as well as an apu and just as cheaply in a htpc or office pc. You say games then an apu is not the target audience as a Pentium can play web browser games just fine also. Heck at the new APU prices a core i3 will stomp over pretty much everything apu for cheaper. And I'm not saying these are bad apu's either but come on.

So I am curious, you would give up a snappier feel to the OS and more versatile potential and use because of a cost difference that amounts to about $50?

Pentiums are solid chips, no denying that but they are a dead end. No upgrade path, no future development that will make them do more than they do now and feel slower in general Windows use.

Now I am not saying they are not less expensive but at this price point you are taking a step backwards.

[bittermann]

However as a family system, an office system, HTCP, just good general use system that does a little bit of everything, this chip excels and in my experience bitch slaps Intels offerings.

No, just no...absolutely ridiculous statement. I'm not even going to dignify that with much of an answer because a new generation Pentium can do everything as well as an apu and just as cheaply in a htpc or office pc. You say games then an apu is not the target audience as a Pentium can play web browser games just fine also. Heck at the new APU prices a core i3 will stomp over pretty much everything apu for cheaper. And I'm not saying these are bad apu's either but come on.

[Crisler]

At the end of the Anandtech story the reviewer talks about his Grandfather and how this was the perfect chip for him and I realized he gets it.

Most of the review sites are having a hard time wrapping their heads around this chip and in fairness so are most enthusiasts. The reason is we live in a rarified world of high end components.

When you realize this chip is targeted at a specific audience, the biggest market for PC chips, then the chip is stellar in what it does. This chip is best defined, not by what it does in benchmarks but what it does when you set down and use the computer.

I have not had a chance to see an A10 in action yet, I have the A8. But I can tell you the A8 delivers great performance and a wonderful computing experience when used as intended.

The system right now has moved from our initial testing to our long term usage testing. It is being used for Skype, Web, Email, Netflix, 720P gaming, sound editing, photo editing and just a lot of general use. It does all of this better than an i5 with the same setup. (Sound editing is quicker in final mix down with the i5 but only by about 12 seconds over a two minute run) When you realize that this experience is with the chip set to 45 TDP and sipping an average during usage of 60 watts, it is pretty incredible.

Will this chip replace my main gaming rig? No likely not unless there was an emergency. The chip is capable enough to run a solid video card along side but it is not meant to be the base for a high end gaming system. It is also not meant to be the base for a high end rendering machine.

However as a family system, an office system, HTCP, just good general use system that does a little bit of everything, this chip excels and in my experience bitch slaps Intels offerings.

[Apocalypsee]

I thought of something about Kaveri, if AMD is crazy enough to make a special mobile Kaveri iteration with GDDR5 support it would be awesome! It allows both great gaming performance and simplistic laptops because GDDR5 is embedded and would be serious threat for Intel Iris Pro

[oozz77]

From my perspective AMD have achieved what they set out to do with the current architecture they have at hand.

AnandTech has never been a favorable review site for anything AMD, but I read every page of his very thorough review and I must say that he virtually gave Kaveri a big thumbs up, as did the Guru of 3D review!!

The A8-7600 virtually matches the high end Trinity and Richland even at 45w and even better at 65w at a much lower Ghz as well!!

All these reviews have been done without optimal drivers as yet and lets just wait for Mantle to hit as well as TrueAudio!!

This launch reminds me a little of the first Athlon 64! Even though it was first to the gate with 64bit computing, it took years for operating systems and software to show it's full potential.

The software and coding will come, but it will take time.

AMD are on the right track and I'm sure there will be many improvements soon!

For those who are worrying about it's clock rate, Gure of 3D got it running stably at 5Ghz!!!

[Anzak]

Can anyone confirm or deny that kaveri will only use 240/250 cards with DDR3?

http://wccftech.com/amd-kaveri-dual-...adeon-r7-gpus/

If so that is not cool, but if shens well then the Internet fooled me again!

The drivers for Kaveri seem really half baked with a lot of stuff missing including official support for dual graphics. However, there does seem to be a few people getting it working with the 250.

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/913-...hics-jeux.html

They tested both a DDR3 and GDDR5 version of the 250 and the GDDR5 version definitely works and it's definitely a lot faster. Some games showed no performance, but Battelfield 4 was particularly impressive showing almost a 50% boost vs. just the card.

Once hybrid crossfire support becomes more widespread and drivers mature (kaveri should see the same improvements with drivers that other hawaii chips get) then the A8 7600 + R7 250 seems like a very solid choice for low power/low power gaming in an HTPC or Steambox.

[bittermann]

Can anyone confirm or deny that kaveri will only use 240/250 cards with DDR3?

http://wccftech.com/amd-kaveri-dual-...adeon-r7-gpus/

If so that is not cool, but if shens well then the Internet fooled me again!

[SOCOM Ops]

No, the AMD A10-7850K with R7 graphics will be used in Dual Graphics with AMD Radeon R7 240/250 cards.

However, in the future you may see HSA and Mantle apps use both the APU and dGPU graphics at the same time in an asynchronous manner.

Oh ok I see. Thanks for the info again caveman. Well I will settle for a more conventional AM3+ set up then.

[bittermann]

I have a VisionTek R7 250 (free bBest Buy card gift) and must say I'm quite impressed with it. Scared me at first running funky PCIE 8X only (had to google it), but it plays Diablo III on max settings with AA great.

[caveman-jim]

Yeah pretty much meh at the cpu side of things but wow the gaming increases are damn good.

Still, im wondering if I can dual GPU my HD7850 with the A10-7850K?

No, the AMD A10-7850K with R7 graphics will be used in Dual Graphics with AMD Radeon R7 240/250 cards.

However, in the future you may see HSA and Mantle apps use both the APU and dGPU graphics at the same time in an asynchronous manner.

[bittermann]

As an enthusiast I would love to see the gaming benchmarks for an 7850K overclocked to 4.2GHz along with overclocking the gpu and memory as much as possible. If nothing else to see the most you can actually squeeze out of today's architecture. With and without Mantle of course.

[EagleEye]

After reading through some of these reviews, I agree that at the 95-100W TDP, there is only a marginal boost in most cases. However, at the 45-65W segment, the performance improvement is incredible! Many of the benchmarks show a 50%+ boost at that TDP which really is a generational difference. Also, the 45-65W Kaveri part out performs the higher TDP parts from previous generations in a bunch of benchmarks, which is great to see. This is perfect for low power/htpc builds.

However, the one area that has massive performance improvements across the board are the Compute benchmarks, and as such tasks become more common, this will become more relevant. Also, it'll be interesting to see Mantle numbers with this, which will really differentiate it from previous generations and the competition.

The main thing these reviews prove is that these APU's have hit the performance ceiling of dual channel DDR3 system memory. At this point I don't think it would matter how much more horsepower was added, that memory bandwidth limitation would negate it. However, I am impressed that AMD was able to squeeze out as much performance as they did out of the high end with the exact same memory bandwidth. I bet if a DDR5 or triple channel version was released, it would really show what the hardware is capable of.

On the CPU side, while not staggering, the ~20% boost in IPC is definitely there, and with overclocking and higher clocked parts released down the road, it can really add up.

After seeing these numbers, I am really looking forward to the mobile Kaveri parts. The performance boost there looks to be pretty substantial.

[The PyroPath]

The longer I look at those numbers, the more I wonder how a 4M/8C desktop part would do at these clocks...

[hazindu]

I thought the 45watt model was quite impressive. If I were making an HTPC, I'd consider it.

[Crisler]

I have to disagree with the disappointment. When you stop trying to take this chip apart to its various components and look at the package as a whole it is actually quite impressive.

At a 45TDP setting on the A8 I am seeing performance that is nearly identical to a 6800K. Bump it to 65 TDP and the chip is even quicker. What is really nice is even under gaming load at 65 TDP this chip is not hitting 100 watts in use.

From a pure usage experience even at 45 TDP the A8 was killing an i5. I am not talking benchmarks but just usage. The A8 is much snappier and just feels faster. This is likely due to the way Windows 8.1 makes use of the parallel processing on the chip.

I said this in my review and will say it here. if you are building a family general purpose system then it makes ZERO sense to buy anything from Intel. A Kaveri based system just does the job of general computer use a ton better and this is before all the neat features are even being fully supported.

[SOCOM Ops]

Yeah pretty much meh at the cpu side of things but wow the gaming increases are damn good.

Still, im wondering if I can dual GPU my HD7850 with the A10-7850K?

[bittermann]

Should be a great mobile cpu...really disappointed on the desktop side.

[The PyroPath]

Can't wait for the next refresh and the line "This is what kaveri should have been!"

I'm feeling sorry for AMD but this A10's just don't cut it. Promising tech, nice increase in IPC, good evolution of the HSA platform with future possibilities but the immature process which is probably responsible for the low clockspeeds make it a flipflop APU, nice gains in some areas but on others losing out quite dramaticaly to the previous generation(s)...

TL;DR:

-GPU portion: WOOOH! Nice one!
-CPU portion: Wow, this is quite disappointing, trading blows with a cheaper previous gen for more money

[SOCOM Ops]

Thanks caveman for the links.