Pete's Open Source Journal: Unsupported and bitter

[Kombatant]

As some of you may know, I have a column on DriverHeaven where I present various topics from the wonderful world of Open Source software. My latest article is up, and I suspect it will stir up some controversy, since I am tackling a very sensitive subject: ATI's Linux drivers. Here's a small taste to get you started:

Yes I am bitter.

I know that is probably not the way you were expecting this column to come back, after all these months of absence. You were probably also expecting that we will cover all the latest exciting developments in the Linux 2D desktop, with Novell’s Compiz and Xgl stealing Linux aficionados’ hearts everywhere, with their slick 3D effects and smooth desktop experience. You are probably wondering why this column hasn’t been updated for such a long time. Well, the answer is very simple to that, and it will explain this rather unusual introductory paragraph. Truth is, I haven’t used Linux since November. You want to know why?

I am a Radeon X1800 user.

You can read the rest of the editorial here.

[Monrad]

Excellent Article!!! I agree with every single word of it Congratulations and I hope this moves some water under the boat

I'll link it to spanish forums so everyone can read it People who loves linux (like me) shouldn't be buying a X1K video card... at least, that's what I think right now.

Thanks for the article, it's very straight and clear

I'm also taking some vacations from Linux and the reason is the same:

I'm a X1800XL user

So, let's hear about other users: Are you a X1K user? Do you use Linux?

Thanks Kombatant

[Melted Rabbit]

I have used Linux ever since 1996, when I installed MkLinux DR1 on a PowerMac 7600. Now, I don't use Linux as much as I used to, but I would like to be able to use it at least a bit. I own an X800XL and a X1800XT, and a laptop with a Mobility X700, all of which are, to the best of my knowledge, unsupported by the ATI Linux drivers. This is a bit disappointing to say the least. There are other problems with chipset support on most of my computers so I am more angry Acer and Intel and to a lesser extent ATI. However, I do have a laptop with a Mobility Rage and while I did try to install Linux on it, Fedora Core 4 is scary slow with only 64MB of RAM.

[1stFlight]

What really amazes me is that with the way ATI is supporting their Linux audience, they're effectively pushing them towards nVidia products. A 5 month gap for just basic X1xxx support? That's just pathetic. In such a competitve environment, I'm amazed and very disappointed.

Good article, thanks for bringing this to the forefront.

[ShaidarHaran]

What Linux audience!?!
It's a niche market.
The X1800 is a premium video card product, targeted at the *gaming* enthusiast.
How many Linux games are there again?

[AllexxisF1]

I hate to be a pain, but frankly Shaidar is right.

If Linux were to some how come out with a dedicated gaming OS that played all DX titled games at the same or better performance level than Windows than maybe I would join the bandwagon.

I'm sorry but ATI should put it's effort on the 99.9% percent of us that play games instead of some Linux users that need it for office desktop/science programs that want to play Doom 3 or ET sometimes.

[Vengeance]

Originally Posted by ShaidarHaran

What Linux audience!?!
It's a niche market.
The X1800 is a premium video card product, targeted at the *gaming* enthusiast.
How many Linux games are there again?

While I am a Windows user/fan and have never even givin Linux a seconed thought. There are A LOT of Linux users man. And there are a lot that use dual boot. I have 3 people I talk to on msn that all use a windows/Linux set up. And they use nVidia cards for the support.
And that seems to be part of the Linux fun is getting PC games/Apts to run under Linux.

Me...I would much rather just install them and they work.

[AllexxisF1]

Just out of curiosity is it possible to play a DX titled game legally on another OS without emulation?

Because if you could, would'nt it be smart for Apple and Linux to really put their effort into doing so?

Gamers tend to be big time pc enthusiasts and if all this time Linux was able to run DX titled games faster than Windows (due to Linux's incredible efficiency) Linux WOULD be much farther along than where it is now.

Gaming/Porn/Science Programs moves this industry, Linux is only really missing one.

[1stFlight]

Originally Posted by ShaidarHaran

What Linux audience!?!
It's a niche market.
The X1800 is a premium video card product, targeted at the *gaming* enthusiast.
How many Linux games are there again?

Funny, it's a niche market that their competitor is having no problem supporting, in fact they offer the best support.

Part of corporate planning involves strategic planning, so it's not a matter of what is going on today as much is its a matter of what is going to happen, 5+ years down the road. As the market has noticed the Linux adoption rate has been steadily increasing. Moreover, nVidia doesn't so much support Linux for gaming, as they do for their workstation products, the same market ATI competes in with their products. It should be noted that typically those workstations run some derivative of Unix (geologic surveys, CGI rendering;etc). If ATI is unwilling to compete in a high-value and emerging market then they are being very shortsighted.

Think SGI, and wonder why we aren't running SGI based 3D-accelerator cards when they just about created the market.

[Kombatant]

Originally Posted by ShaidarHaran

What Linux audience!?!
It's a niche market.
The X1800 is a premium video card product, targeted at the *gaming* enthusiast.
How many Linux games are there again?

Many. Niche market? That's what ATI used to say about SLI too in 2004. Guess what happened.

[1stFlight]

Originally Posted by AllexxisF1

Just out of curiosity is it possible to play a DX titled game legally on another OS without emulation?

Because if you could, would'nt it be smart for Apple and Linux to really put their effort into doing so?

Gamers tend to be big time pc enthusiasts and if all this time Linux was able to run DX titled games faster than Windows (due to Linux's incredible efficiency) Linux WOULD be much farther along than where it is now.

Gaming/Porn/Science Programs moves this industry, Linux is only really missing one.

It's perfectly legal, in fact the product that does it is called Cedega.

[gamefoo21]

Bah Linux efficiency....

I have my gaming install of XP Pro down to 80megs of ram being used when idle.

Linux can kiss my , most hardcore linux users are windows noobs. Simple fact... Just like I'm a linux noob

But I would really like ati to get in the game on linux drivers. I've seen alot of people get Nvidia cards because of linux support.

ATI + Windows
Nv + Linux

[ShaidarHaran]

Originally Posted by Vengeance

While I am a Windows user/fan and have never even givin Linux a seconed thought. There are A LOT of Linux users man. And there are a lot that use dual boot. I have 3 people I talk to on msn that all use a windows/Linux set up. And they use nVidia cards for the support.
And that seems to be part of the Linux fun is getting PC games/Apts to run under Linux.

Me...I would much rather just install them and they work.

You're just playing Devil's Advocate

1) "a lot" is vague and relative. In this context I'd have to disagree with the use of this phrase. This is not a knock against Linux or open-source software/freeware. If we were talking about the marketshare of Firefox compared to IE I'd be inclined to agree that FF has significant marketshare and "a lot" of users. I truly don't believe the same can be said for Linux, though.
2) I can't stress enough the fact that the X1800 and 1900 lines are for gaming enthusiasts. Gaming enthusiasts simply do not use Linux, at least not as their primary O.S.

[ShaidarHaran]

Originally Posted by Kombatant

Many. Niche market? That's what ATI used to say about SLI too in 2004. Guess what happened.

SLI *is* a niche market. Throw out some hard numbers on Linux marketshare and then we can have this discussion. Until then, it's all semantics.

[ShaidarHaran]

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

Funny, it's a niche market that their competitor is having no problem supporting, in fact they offer the best support.

Part of corporate planning involves strategic planning, so it's not a matter of what is going on today as much is its a matter of what is going to happen, 5+ years down the road. As the market has noticed the Linux adoption rate has been steadily increasing. Moreover, nVidia doesn't so much support Linux for gaming, as they do for their workstation products, the same market ATI competes in with their products. It should be noted that typically those workstations run some derivative of Unix (geologic surveys, CGI rendering;etc). If ATI is unwilling to compete in a high-value and emerging market then they are being very shortsighted.

Think SGI, and wonder why we aren't running SGI based 3D-accelerator cards when they just about created the market.

That report says *nothing* about actual adoption rates, nor marketshare. Also it's a year old.

I'll make you the same offer I gave Komby:

Originally Posted by ShaidarHaran

Throw out some hard numbers on Linux marketshare and then we can have this discussion. Until then, it's all semantics.

[spyre]

ATI only do things half heartedly in many respects, its time that changed.

[bobrownik]

i feel the recent ATI-Microsoft dealings had a lot to do with why the linux driver is not being developed

[Monrad]

Originally Posted by ShaidarHaran

What Linux audience!?!
It's a niche market.
The X1800 is a premium video card product, targeted at the *gaming* enthusiast.
How many Linux games are there again?

So, I need two computers in order to use Linux?

niche market? Have you ever used Linux? Do you know what Cedega is? I guess you don't. The comunity is growing fast, and if you've been using Linux this last years you'd know it.

I can do whatever I do @ windows in Linux. I can play WOW online for example... I've played Unreal Tournament, Doom3, RTCW: Enemy Territory, Counter Strike. You can even play HL2, FarCry, and even more games... yes... with a Linux + NV rig you can do that and even more.

ATI needs to take care of this now. It's not something that will calm down in time. With Windows Spy.. I mean... Vista ahead, you will see even more users migrating to Linux. And some developers are beginning to port games for Windows AND Linux.

[bobrownik]

Originally Posted by Monrad

With Windows Spy.. I mean... Vista ahead, you will see even more users migrating to Linux.

yup , i will be the next one to convert ,

because of this DRM and spying crap being built into windows ,linux will gain a lot of new users over the next few years and it should be supported by the hardware manufacturers , especially the big ones

[ShaidarHaran]

Originally Posted by Monrad

So, I need two computers in order to use Linux?

niche market? Have you ever used Linux? Do you know what Cedega is? I guess you don't. The comunity is growing fast, and if you've been using Linux this last years you'd know it.

Have you ever heard of the phrase "never assume, for it makes an ass out of u and me"? I've used linux plenty, bub In fact, one of our servers runs Whitebox Enterprise Linux (a freeware derivative of Red Hat Enterprise Linux) and I maintain it. I've set up several systems with Fedora, Red Hat, Damn Small Linux, Knoppix, Gnoppix, and Overclockix. I don't use Linux every day of my life, but I'm not the utter n00b you'd like to believe I am.

Originally Posted by Monrad

can do whatever I do @ windows in Linux. I can play WOW online for example... I've played Unreal Tournament, Doom3, RTCW: Enemy Territory, Counter Strike. You can even play HL2, FarCry, and even more games... yes... with a Linux + NV rig you can do that and even more.

If Cedega's emulation is that good then why hasn't it's parent company (TransGaming Technologies) exploded onto the scene with an IPO or been bought out by MS yet?
How many newly-released games can you take out of the box and play on Linux using Cedega? Not many, I'd bet. Every game you listed is over a year old, and most are in the 2-4 year-old range. I would hope that TransGaming could cope with the most popular games that are all at least a year old. Besides that, several games you listed there are OpenGL games and not tied into Windows specifically.

Need I even get into the fact that emulation/code translation performs slower than native code execution, and leads to visual anomalies?

[1stFlight]

Originally Posted by ShaidarHaran

That report says *nothing* about actual adoption rates, nor marketshare. Also it's a year old.

I'll make you the same offer I gave Komby:

The point was the adoption rate is on the upswing, vs OS/2 for example. As for market share, which market are you after? File servers, desktops, web servers, db servers, workstations;etc. You get the idea.

Overall its current marketshare is unimportant. The fact that it's a growing market is important and that failing to support it, will only cost ATI in the end. Personally I'm getting ready to replace my current system, and sadly without Linux support, an ATI product may not be on my purchase list.

Btw, http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,3...9253733,00.htm

And in another first, fast-growing Linux took third place, bumping machines with IBM's mainframe operating system, z/OS. Linux server sales grew from $4.3bn in 2004 to $5.3bn in 2005, while mainframes dropped from $5.7bn to $4.8bn over the same period, Eastwood said.

In the same article, Windows servers amounted to:

Computer makers sold $17.7bn worth of Windows servers worldwide in 2005

So in total server side Linux servers amounted to roughly a 1/3rd of Windows sales, you have to admit that's nothing to sneeze at.

[Monrad]

Originally Posted by ShaidarHaran

Have you ever heard of the phrase "never assume, for it makes an ass out of u and me"? I've used linux plenty, bub In fact, one of our servers runs Whitebox Enterprise Linux (a freeware derivative of Red Hat Enterprise Linux) and I maintain it. I've set up several systems with Fedora, Red Hat, Damn Small Linux, Knoppix, Gnoppix, and Overclockix. I don't use Linux every day of my life, but I'm not the utter n00b you'd like to believe I am.



If Cedega's emulation is that good then why hasn't it's parent company (TransGaming Technologies) exploded onto the scene with an IPO or been bought out by MS yet?
How many newly-released games can you take out of the box and play on Linux using Cedega? Not many, I'd bet. Every game you listed is over a year old, and most are in the 2-4 year-old range. I would hope that TransGaming could cope with the most popular games that are all at least a year old. Besides that, several games you listed there are OpenGL games and not tied into Windows specifically.

I never said you were a n00b, that's up to you

So you don't know Cedega. You seem to know about Linux servers... but you should also know that Linux servers != Linux Desktop. It's a very different world.

Cedega is a Linux program and I think the program itself cannot be bought by M$. It's not that easy for M$ to enter in the Linux world. And we are not talking about games only... but I guess you already knew that.

Please, stop posting every time you see us bashing ATI for some reason. You can love a company and accept that they can make mistakes you know.

[ShaidarHaran]

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

The point was the adoption rate is on the upswing, vs OS/2 for example. As for market share, which market are you after? File servers, desktops, web servers, db servers, workstations;etc. You get the idea.

Overall its current marketshare is unimportant. The fact that it's a growing market is important and that failing to support it, will only cost ATI in the end. Personally I'm getting ready to replace my current system, and sadly without Linux support, an ATI product may not be on my purchase list.

Btw, http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,3...9253733,00.htm

In the same article, Windows servers amounted to: So in total server side Linux servers amounted to roughly a 1/3rd of Windows sales, you have to admit that's nothing to sneeze at.

you sound like Paul DeMone with that weak "growth is everything" argument. He uses the same argument in Itanium's defense. Anytime someone brings up Itanium sales he talks about YoY growth and equates it with profitability

As for which market is being discussed, I think that's plainly obvious. Have you ever seen a server running an X1800 or X1900? I sure haven't. It's clear the desktop market is the market in question. It's also a well-known fact that MS absolutely dominates this market.

[radE8]

[if he can rant, i can rant too]

Bottom line...

If you want to properly game, you run windows. If ATi would fully support linux, then developers would be more inclined to write proper games for linux. At least, that's the theory, and I truly believe this is the source behind much of the whining. Instead of taking it to developers, people instead drop the ball in ATi's court ad nauseam.

The article states using mono for CCC. That's great, and has been brought up all along from the beginning of CCC. But you know what? I can probably count on one hand the number of people that actually have anything nice to say about CCC. So that would just be something else to complain about (performance, why doesn't this work this way, blah blah blah) if CCC were up and running in Linux. Now how about we look at ATi's OGL performance. Not close to their DirectX performance. So again, it would just be the next thing to complain about.

The great Carmack is even using a 360 as his dev platform, Vista (the next windows in case you didn't know) is heavily DirectX friendly, and R600 inherits from the 360 design. This does not paint a rosey picture for OGL or Linux.

And as for nvidia, yes, we know how perfect nvidia linux drivers are. I could have sworn that the sudden improvement happened during the FX era, in which you could argue that nvidia had their hands everywhere to get some advantage with that hardware. And they've coasted on that investment ever since.

ShaidarHaran, your first post upstream makes a lot of sense.

Lastly, ati will surely get the hint with the massive loss of sales due to everyone going to nvidia for linux. Unless of course the use of "niche" upstream is right on the money.

[/rant]

[ShaidarHaran]

Originally Posted by Monrad

I never said you were a n00b, that's up to you

So you don't know Cedega. You seem to know about Linux servers... but you should also know that Linux servers != Linux Desktop. It's a very different world.

Cedega is a Linux program and I think the program itself cannot be bought by M$. It's not that easy for M$ to enter in the Linux world. And we are not talking about games only... but I guess you already knew that.

I've heard of Cedega, but only used it under the old "WINE" name. It's been a couple years since I've used it. I don't claim to know everything about Cedega or Linux.

Originally Posted by Monrad

Please, stop posting every time you see us bashing ATI for some reason. You can love a company and accept that they can make mistakes you know.

How many times do I have to say this? Perhaps I should put it in my signature....

RAGE3D IS AN ATI FANSITE!!!
Get it? ATI fansite, not Linux fansite. I have no problem with you liking or using Linux. I don't even have a problem with you evangelizing it. Just don't think you'll get a free pass with any statement you make about it

[karlotta]

ATI sucks! years of linux. ATI sux! Always "soon" always next set... There is no reason NOT to support Linux. Except maybe CM can compile a distro. Its down right pathetic. I will buy a nvda card when a good rd580 mb comes out. Dual16x ATI in one NVDA inthe other, Dual boot set bios for differnt card.. WHY why should i have to go to that trouble.. because ATI sucks! Sucks at linux. end of story.
PS. not the end, for all the atifanboys who cant see the point, just shut up, your making a fool out of yourself's.

More than bitter

[radE8]

Originally Posted by karlotta

...PS. not the end, for all the atifanboys who cant see the point, just shut up, your making a fool out of yourself's.

More than bitter

And the *nix fanboys, CCC bashers, TrayTools fanboys, Windows bashers are an exception to this rule. /sarcasm

Anyway, reminds me of windows 2000 upon release. There was a notable outcry over the included drivers for the business OS. It eventually got increased support, but not until its userbase increased.

[1stFlight]

Originally Posted by ShaidarHaran

you sound like Paul DeMone with that weak "growth is everything" argument. He uses the same argument in Itanium's defense. Anytime someone brings up Itanium sales he talks about YoY growth and equates it with profitability

Possibly, but look at where ignoring a emerging market got SGI.

As for which market is being discussed, I think that's plainly obvious. Have you ever seen a server running an X1800 or X1900? I sure haven't. It's clear the desktop market is the market in question. It's also a well-known fact that MS absolutely dominates this market.

No and I wouldn't want to have one with a 3d accelerator in it, however you would see a workstation running ATI's FireGL products, that would be a market to look at. A market where nVidia competes far better than ATI. ATI needs to catch up.

[Vengeance]

Originally Posted by ShaidarHaran

I've heard of Cedega, but only used it under the old "WINE" name. It's been a couple years since I've used it. I don't claim to know everything about Cedega or Linux.



How many times do I have to say this? Perhaps I should put it in my signature....

RAGE3D IS AN ATI FANSITE!!!
Get it? ATI fansite, not Linux fansite. I have no problem with you liking or using Linux. I don't even have a problem with you evangelizing it. Just don't think you'll get a free pass with any statement you make about it

Most of the mods, admins don't really feel this way anymore. Only a handful of members really do.... And I not saying its going nvidia, really has nothing to do with that. But we are covering much more than just ATi cards now. And we talk about much more than ATi cards.
I mean we have had a Linux forum for years.....Maybe you should tell
that to WhO_KnOwS, That Linux has no place here at Rage.

[nexus_alpha]

Originally Posted by Kombatant

Many. Niche market? That's what ATI used to say about SLI too in 2004. Guess what happened.

I don't think its a niche market anymore cause the stats that ATI are looking at don't take into consideration person's who dual/multi boot. This may be a serious problem for ATI down the line.