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Old Sep 17, 2005, 03:53 PM   #1
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MrB
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Default Hardware Analysis Benchmarks

By now everyone should have seen the benchmarks scores of the R520 over at Hardware Analysis. The article has certainly stirred up a lot of controversy over many different issues. I've discussed the article with an ATI rep whom has told me the following:
  • Sander’s benchmarks do not reflect ATI R520 hardware, nor do they reflect the performance of products currently being evaluated by partners.
  • The real performance of R520 clearly dominates the fastest competitive hardware
  • Sander never tested a board
  • Sander used ‘custom benchmarks’ so he’d have an excuse later for his mistakes (his numbers fall far outside the range of what is reasonable for those games in any custom benchmark)
The last two points are moot as the article states the fact though we have no idea about the timedemos used. Clearly ATI believes in their products performance and states the opposite of what the article suggested. All this of course will be cleared when actual product reviews come out.

For now enjoy the soap opera that makes this industry so interesting. DH also has posted some more information on the matter.

Last edited by Ratchet : Sep 17, 2005 at 06:05 PM.
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 04:13 PM   #2
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I've said it before... if they have tested at all it's with a REV02 model... and not to mention the simple fact that ATI isn't going to invest millions of dollars to produce a card which can barely compete with the competition....

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Old Sep 17, 2005, 04:32 PM   #3
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I'll wait for the real world benchmarks and comparisons to come out, and I'm not talkin from the fanboy sites either, they can get just as bad the other direction from what I just read. No need to pounce on that article because guess what, it's just one article, that may or may not be true, who knows. But I do like the way the fanboy sites jumped quick to disprove the article, thats what makes them suspect in the first place, because instead of waiting to publish their findings, they are going to ATI to figure out how to dispell what that article has to say.
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 04:35 PM   #4
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At my initial look at the review, it seemed rather unporfessionally done, at least they were working a loophole to put a company down, one which they should be trying to get back on good terms with.

Considering the continuous rumors about the R520 that have said EVERYTHING but slower performance it also seems to be a little out of place. Especially with the huge wait, if it wasn't going to be the top of the line, I don't think ATi would have even spent all the work on it.

Whatever it turns out to be, I hope the R520 ends up being a great success. After all the hits ATi has taken from SLi and the 7800 series, they deserve another moment in the sun.
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 04:46 PM   #5
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i'll wait for ratchets review.

after he tested a 7800 gtx and gt i am firm that he isn't a fanboy hosting a flaming ati fanboy site. that he is merely an ati enthusiast who wants to know how one product stands up against the rest
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 04:49 PM   #6
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So

the actual final R520 is ~10 fps more than what was posted

WOAH
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 05:43 PM   #7
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No need for damage control. ATi is doomed. Nothing to see here. Move along.

I posted this on August 27th, and I hope I'm wrong...
Quote:
Notice how ati is chastised on both fronts (for speaking which brings on the lawsuits and for not speaking which brings in more fans from both camps). Perfect example of ati never being able to live up to anybody's expectations. Like I've said before, even if the R520 comes out with more horespower than the G70, people will either bump up their current expectations to guarantee disappointment, or find a point to nitpick to death that separates the card from a G70.

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33826753
As for the comments about websites running to ati like good little boys and girls, I bet you're the same people that bad mouth dave b when he asks for clarification on something. Get over yourselves.

If you need what G70 offers, then by all means, nobody is stopping you. If R520 turns out to be more powerful, don't troll here with nitpicks to make you feel better about your purchase. I can't wait for this bloody card to release, and the aftermath to die down. It's insanity across the board.

Good luck to anyone that manages to survive the apocalyptic R520 release with any shred of dignity.

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Old Sep 17, 2005, 05:59 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radE8
Good luck to anyone that manages to survive the apocalyptic R520 release with any shred of dignity.
I think we all need to go into rehab after this one....

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Old Sep 17, 2005, 06:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilsRejection
i'll wait for ratchets review.

after he tested a 7800 gtx and gt i am firm that he isn't a fanboy hosting a flaming ati fanboy site. that he is merely an ati enthusiast who wants to know how one product stands up against the rest
QFT

I love Ratchets reviews, some of the best out there.


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Old Sep 17, 2005, 06:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightCrawler™
I've said it before... if they have tested at all it's with a REV02 model... and not to mention the simple fact that ATI isn't going to invest millions of dollars to produce a card which can barely compete with the competition....

NC™
they pretty much had with all their hardware prior to r300...
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 06:43 PM   #11
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I call BS on everything that rep said. If any of the four things that rep claim were true, Hardware analysis would already be served with court papers. The lack of court action is all you need to know that all ATI is doing now is spin control. points 1, 2, or 4 would be grounds for an injuction and lawsuit against hardware analysis.
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 06:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNiaC
they pretty much had with all their hardware prior to r300...
I don't think they can afford such a result now..... unless they're betting on the sales of the XBOX and take their losses on the desktop market...

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Old Sep 17, 2005, 06:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikarinokami
I call BS on everything that rep said. If any of the four things that rep claim were true, Hardware analysis would already be served with court papers. The lack of court action is all you need to know that all ATI is doing now is spin control. points 1, 2, or 4 would be grounds for an injuction and lawsuit against hardware analysis.
I dont know about sueing, ATi has enough on there hands at this point. What a bs review done with a 256MB XL card . Hell the memory prob never hit 700Mhz who knows, i dont even think he knows what speeds both cards were running


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Old Sep 17, 2005, 06:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSXeon
I dont know about sueing, ATi has enough on there hands at this point. What a bs review done with a 256MB XL card . Hell the memory prob never hit 700Mhz who knows, i dont even think he knows what speeds both cards were running


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I think you would be crazy not to sue if you could.
1. It looks to good to shareholders than you are actively defending the company name.
2. detterence, most lawsuits by big companies are more about detterance than anything else, if this site really made these unflattering benchmarks out of thin air, it would be incredibley short sighted to let them get away with it.
3. The ease in which they could win this case also makes me think that your assertions aren't correct, the hardest thing to prove in libel is malice, which the site has already admited.

therefore to me, to the only reasonable conclusion than can be drawn is that these benchmarks are either indeed correct, or so close to the actual truth, that ATI would never be able to prove that they were damaged by thier publication.
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 10:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikarinokami
I call BS on everything that rep said. If any of the four things that rep claim were true, Hardware analysis would already be served with court papers. The lack of court action is all you need to know that all ATI is doing now is spin control. points 1, 2, or 4 would be grounds for an injuction and lawsuit against hardware analysis.
I'm not sure you realize how difficult and expensive it is to sue a person or entity. I don't think ATI would gain much from a lawsuit.

Last edited by cal_guy : Sep 17, 2005 at 10:19 PM.
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 10:29 PM   #16
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I can't believe people are talking about lawsuits! Get over it already.

I can post benchmarks showing a carrot beating up on the R520 if I want to.
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 10:35 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikarinokami
I call BS on everything that rep said. If any of the four things that rep claim were true, Hardware analysis would already be served with court papers. The lack of court action is all you need to know that all ATI is doing now is spin control. points 1, 2, or 4 would be grounds for an injuction and lawsuit against hardware analysis.
I am thinking that:

1) ATI is confident that their product is better than what Sassen's article stated

2) If so, ATI will not need to sue Sassen nor HA, because that site will lose what little credibility they have left after this most unprofessional and unethical stunt....

3) If r520 performs as Sassen stated, then he has nothing to worry about, does he?

If 1 & 2 are true, ATI will not sue Sassen because they won't be able to get blood out of a turnip and in the world of PR, they will likely just enjoy watching him go down in flames.

If Sassen is correct, then Sassen will be the one watching ATI squirm and try to talk their way out of this one.

I put my money on ATI.....
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 10:40 PM   #18
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its pointless to sue a no name site that reviews an UNRELEASED product theirs no material gain for ATI in the long run the site isnt big enough IMO i meaan if it were toms anand or [H] i could understand sueing them as they get 100000 plus hits a day but for this megear site thats doing this for the sole purpose of garnering attention its pointless
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 11:30 PM   #19
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irrelevant.

() there will be ONE loser at the end - either Sanders OR ATI.

I can actually *understand* Sanders (who never SAID that he was the one testing the hw - instead he pointed out and had even disclaimers that it was 3rd hand results from an OEM in taiwan). I really could not blame him IN CASE it turnes out those results would be bogus. He just did his job and was trying to do the community a favor.
WHO ELSE would *not* go crazy for the first benchmark results of the R520 which we people wait so long already ?

What the OEM actually *really* tested nobody KNOWS - Sanders does not know and NOONE can confirm/deny whether the OEM actually really tested the stated hw and then, what revisions etc. they used.

() I am kind of "impressed" buy the statements of (so called) "official ATI reps", they seem to be pretty confident with statements like "those numbers are WAY below".."no way"...etc..etc.....problem only of course we dont have names just hear-say and rumors. HA how i love those pre-new-hardware release fights and rumors - actually i MISS 'em...its one of the best parts of the fall season

Just remember last year (even longer) when we had discussion goin on regarding X850 and there were rumors it would have SM3.0 etc.....

Right now we're at the level of "my sister's friend's nice's friend heard the store clerk say that her friend knows someone over at ATI (or in Taiwan at on OEM) and [fill in your favorite statement]..."the new card will have 40000 FPS in D3 with 8xFSAA".....or "those numbers are definitly wrong"...etc..etc......problem is only that for every statement there is another one contradicting .

I PERSONALLY *think* that those numbers are off and the real product should definitly be faster then any other current hardware. Not 3xfaster than a 7800GTX...but still noticeable and with better image-quality and AA performance etc. That's what i THINK because that's what i *expect* - otherwise R520 would be pointless !
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Old Sep 17, 2005, 11:36 PM   #20
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Skynet: will the carrot come in AGP?
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Old Sep 18, 2005, 12:16 AM   #21
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and how overclockable is this carrot?
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Old Sep 18, 2005, 01:53 AM   #22
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Dude, your carrot is drawing much interest. Move up the carrot's release date asap.
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Old Sep 18, 2005, 02:35 AM   #23
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I plan to save up mad money for this carrot
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Old Sep 18, 2005, 02:56 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radE8
I can't wait for this bloody card to release, and the aftermath to die down.
Why wait? Just pre-order the paper launch version; at least then you'll get something.
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Old Sep 18, 2005, 04:44 AM   #25
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Even if the benchmarks are one hundred percent accurate, do you seriously expect the ATi rep to admit that ?

"Yes, our most recent hw underperforms, DO NOT buy it"
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Old Sep 18, 2005, 05:00 AM   #26
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Driver Heaven's Zardon said that HA's bench is just a pure hoax. (He even calls HA a Hoaxware Analysis. HAHAHA)

http://www.driverheaven.net/showthread.php?t=85118

"The results at Hardwareanalysis are scores ive achieved with an overclocked X850XT PE and not a R520 graphics card. I can't help feel with the context of the editorial is it merely a "stab" at ATI for being kept out of the loop."

Ha. Things are getting even funnier than ever!!
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Old Sep 18, 2005, 05:08 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Reaper,The
Even if the benchmarks are one hundred percent accurate, do you seriously expect the ATi rep to admit that ?

"Yes, our most recent hw underperforms, DO NOT buy it"
Actually, people expected ATI's PR to say this "Err... yea... ummm... It really looks nVidia gives our next generation card a run for the money, doesn't it? If you want the best compromise between price and performance, I guess you're better off getting an nVidia card. Don't waste your hard earned cash on our upcoming products.
As for our card being $150 more expensive for the same level of performance, you have to understand... experimenting 90nm is a costly operation and the yields are not too good... Someone has to pay the bill, right?


Seriously, before jumping to conclusions and bashing others, how about waiting for the FINAL previews of the card to be up?
For all you know, ATI may clock the board 10Mhz higher just to make HA reviews look off.

Also, there are the discrepancies in the alleged email exchange (published on websites close to ATI) between Sander and a ATI PR guy : how is it that the ATI PR guy writes on Thursday September 08 at 10:37 AM, yet Sander replies to that email on 08 September 2005 at 09:39 AM ?

Last but not least, I am appalled by the obvious lack of ethics.
You shouldn't republish private correspondence on your blog without the consent of the other party. Yet ATI's PR chose to bypass this by leaking the emails to websites close to them.
If you wrote to somebody personally, you'd presume that the correspondence was between the two of you unless you agreed otherwise, and most people feel the same way.
Besides, legally, it is not authorized to make public another person's address, or to publish a private correspondence.

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Old Sep 18, 2005, 06:42 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atifanATIc
Seriously, before jumping to conclusions and bashing others, how about waiting for the FINAL previews of the card to be up?
For all you know, ATI may clock the board 10Mhz higher just to make HA reviews look off.
I am not bashing anyone, you can't expect ATi's rep to be unbiased same goes for a nv rep or ass kissing sites like DH.

Personally, I'm waiting for Ratchet's review.
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Old Sep 18, 2005, 06:48 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Reaper,The
I am not bashing anyone, you can't expect ATi's rep to be unbiased same goes for a nv rep or ass kissing sites like DH.

Personally, I'm waiting for Ratchet's review.
Yessir FEAR with AA scores and Farcry with HDR scores. With the other ones he adds in (Rally, HL2, Doom 3 ect), i just hope he gets a 24pp card to test


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Old Sep 18, 2005, 08:45 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Rage
Why wait? Just pre-order the paper launch version; at least then you'll get something.
No can do. Not even the paper launched version has been launched yet if you'd notice.

Perhaps it has been launched by the fans (both red and green), but there's nothing out of ati yet. nvidia successfully squashed that tactic with the release of G70, and the 'good little boys and girls' as someone said earlier made sure to make points of launch/availability in their intros/conclusions/summaries/extended nvidia PR. So when ati launches more than ONE card with availability, I expect the net to be on fire with even more praise. Nah, we all know that each intro/conclusion/summary will say 'late' as many times as possible and mention availablity in some obscure one liner.

Anyway, more importantly, will two carrots from two different grocery stores work together?
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