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Old Nov 16, 2002, 01:52 AM   #1
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monkeyboy
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Default ATI lied about DDR II?

According to this story over at eetimes.com

http://www.eetimes.com/semi/news/OEG20021115S0028

"Although the ATI part has been demonstrated running with DDR-II memory, sources said the DRAM was running in a DDR-I compatibility mode. The part was not designed for use with DDR-II, according to sources."

Don't you just love these 'sources'? Always reminds me of that time that 'sources' tipped off certain websites about the whole quack/quake thing.

Personally, I'd like ATI to respond to this. Not because I don't believe that they actually had DDR II running on the board (in the manner it was intended), but this is the sort of FUD that continually seems to crop up these days and needs to be nipped in the bud.

Funny also that the story appears just a few days before the NV30 'launch'....
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 02:03 AM   #2
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Quote:
"Although the ATI part has been demonstrated running with DDR-II memory, sources said the DRAM was running in a DDR-I compatibility mode. The part was not designed for use with DDR-II, according to sources."
No, the fact that you or anyone else thinks this is legit.. that is FUD.

*sources*.. sheesh...
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 02:21 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
No, the fact that you or anyone else thinks this is legit.. that is FUD.

*sources*.. sheesh...
I didn't actually say that I beleived it.....
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 05:12 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by monkeyboy
I didn't actually say that I beleived it.....
dont bother replying to hellbinder, hes the resident loon (whos production is still lower than mine )
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 07:55 AM   #5
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Yeah dont even think of replying to HellbEnder (see what i did there? ). even if you take his side, he'll shout to down for being a nVidiot and not worshipping ATi, then he'll go and jack off over his 9700.

BTW HellbEnder (wow its just soo easy) has used "sources" beofre. He's a prick dont listen to him

/me waits for HB's " which sources where? " arguement.
/me points to the NV30 stuff HB has been proclaiming he KNOWS!!! OMG HAHAHAHA
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 10:14 AM   #6
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Default

trying to take the subject back to the start, i have to agree that "sources" are a *little* clowdy, everyday anyone can quote "sources" saying whatever they want.
think about it, the r300 probably supports ddr-II because it's so new, ati probably didn't use it because even now there's probably not enough chips being produced to put a card out in the mass market, so for now they went with DDR-I and kept the DDR-II trumph for later use and therefore they'll probably have no problem making the r350 a DDR-II part because it's already (although disabled) in a tried and true chip, the r300.
i think it makes sense, but of course i might be wrong. just my 2 cents
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 11:41 AM   #7
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ATI itself is a bad source of information. Wake the **** up.
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 12:50 PM   #8
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EETimes is a very well respected and credible source. I'm not saying anything one way or another, but this isn't HardOCP we're talking about.
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 01:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by typedef enum
this isn't HardOCP we're talking about.
That was a cheap shot!

No matter what people think of ATi, I find it very hard to believe that they'd lie in saying that the R300 design is ready for DDR-II if it isn't.
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 02:57 PM   #10
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What the hell is "DDR I compatibility" supposed to mean??? DDRII is the exact same thing as DDRI except for the internal filters.
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 04:19 PM   #11
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The card demonstrated on TechTV and the ones mentioned in the ATI press release are all full DDR2 based graphics cards. ATI is the first and only company to have demonstrated the use of DDR2 in a graphics card. There are no tricks being played. In fact, the president of JEDEC demonstrated that DDR2 card on TechTV. No games.

FUD from "unknown" sources is just a sign of ignorance or simple denial of reality.
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 04:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by sireric
The card demonstrated on TechTV and the ones mentioned in the ATI press release are all full DDR2 based graphics cards. ATI is the first and only company to have demonstrated the use of DDR2 in a graphics card. There are no tricks being played. In fact, the president of JEDEC demonstrated that DDR2 card on TechTV. No games.

FUD from "unknown" sources is just a sign of ignorance or simple denial of reality.
The Smackdown has officially been laid
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 05:09 PM   #13
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DDR1 & DDR2 are not the same internally or externally.
In fact, DDR-2 is quite abit more complex than DDR1.
Check out samsumg data sheets for DDR1 and DDR2 for more info.

EETimes generally is very accurate in what they print. Not to be confused with Inquirer/THG/TR/HardOC or any semi-pro
web news site. Its an entirely different level of reporting akin to IEEE journal.
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 05:53 PM   #14
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DDR2 will be able to be clocked higher than DDR1.
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 06:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by sireric
In fact, the president of JEDEC demonstrated that DDR2 card on TechTV.
That's right, I'd forgotton that the ATI guy who demonstrated the card was a JEDEC bigwig also. Frankly, I'll take his word over some unknown 'source' any day of the week.
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 08:13 PM   #16
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For all you jerks that TRY to make hellbinder look bad you only make yourselfs look stupid. Hellbinder has not been proven wrong on anything he said was a fact, and has been right on most of his educated guesses.
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 08:29 PM   #17
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You children making these comments about Hellbinder, your a sorry bunch arent you.

Not only have Hellbinders comments shown to be entirely factual on this thread, he has not lowered himself to your level of personal crap that really doesnt belong in a discussion site about a graphics card.
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 08:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bathrone
You children making these comments about Hellbinder, your a sorry bunch arent you.

Not only have Hellbinders comments shown to be entirely factual on this thread, he has not lowered himself to your level of personal crap that really doesnt belong in a discussion site about a graphics card.
Touche'
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 09:28 PM   #19
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"according to sources"
Obviously, those sources didn't include ATi or the president of JEDEC.

Bob the source/janitor at EETimes is known to make stuff up at random.
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 10:01 PM   #20
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This is a rather amuzing thread .
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Old Nov 16, 2002, 11:23 PM   #21
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EE Times is a reliable source. It is after all an EE's publication.
Written by engineers, distributed to and read by engineers.
Not like a dentist who starts a website and calls it Toms.

JEDEC has many members from many different companies including IBM, Motorola, Intel, ect. They are after all responsible for ensuring compatibility of Integrated circuits and assemblys by defining standard packaging and pinouts.

If you look, you will find other engineering articles that confirm.
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Old Nov 17, 2002, 12:50 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by sireric
The card demonstrated on TechTV and the ones mentioned in the ATI press release are all full DDR2 based graphics cards. ATI is the first and only company to have demonstrated the use of DDR2 in a graphics card. There are no tricks being played. In fact, the president of JEDEC demonstrated that DDR2 card on TechTV. No games.

FUD from "unknown" sources is just a sign of ignorance or simple denial of reality.
Did you read sireric's post? I think I'd believe him over,
"FUD from "unknown" sources is just a sign of ignorance or simple denial of reality."
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Old Nov 17, 2002, 01:16 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by menes
EE Times is a reliable source. It is after all an EE's publication.
Written by engineers, distributed to and read by engineers.
Not like a dentist who starts a website and calls it Toms.

JEDEC has many members from many different companies including IBM, Motorola, Intel, ect. They are after all responsible for ensuring compatibility of Integrated circuits and assemblys by defining standard packaging and pinouts.

If you look, you will find other engineering articles that confirm.
Dude, you do realise that sireric works for ATI don't you? I think he would know over "sources" don't you?
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Old Nov 17, 2002, 01:20 AM   #24
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i rather believe in sireric and the JEDEC big guy than the all-seeing, all-present Source
my cat, ups, i mean my sources tell me that the r350 is going to be launched in 2 hours.

and i believe faster in my cat than on those "sources"
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Old Nov 17, 2002, 03:44 AM   #25
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Perhaps nVidia "informed" them.

They seem to like to "inform" people of ATis "flaws".
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Old Nov 17, 2002, 08:15 AM   #26
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just fine with me
That is how business works.
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Old Nov 17, 2002, 08:18 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by DukeNukem
just fine with me
That is how business works.
I dunno, in my part of the world we still have crazy thing like:
values, ethics and moral.

And besides: a company slandering their "opponents" seems like a desperate company to me.
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Old Nov 17, 2002, 11:00 AM   #28
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No the sources I've reviewed were articles with comments from various industry leaders inclding Sam.
Hell, so the guy works for ATI, what do you expect him to say? Did he state what version of DDR-2 they were using? Nope. So, the possiblity is there.

"Jim Sogas, vice president of sales at Elpida Memory Inc., San Jose, said DDR-II's 1.8V operation, vs. the 2.4V required by DDR-I, allows faster I/O speed. On-die line termination also leads to greater signal integrity at extremely high speed. Using a new 4-bit prefetch architecture, compared with the DDR-I architecture's 2-bit prefetch, DDR-II can also achieve twice the data rate at the same basic core clock speed, Sogas added."

Interestingly, ATI currently uses 2-bit prefetch.

and...

"A rapid decision is important, because there will be an intermediary version of the technology that tucks a DDR-I die into the new packaging. Those chips will likely feature core frequencies of 150 or 166 MHz. While some have referred to this generation as DDR 1.5, ArtX's Macri said a better name is PC300 or PC333, because nothing on the chip is changed except the packaging. This generation could be available by the second half of next year, and will provide a transition to DDR-II using the same packaging."
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Old Nov 17, 2002, 11:04 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by menes
"A rapid decision is important, because there will be an intermediary version of the technology that tucks a DDR-I die into the new packaging. Those chips will likely feature core frequencies of 150 or 166 MHz. While some have referred to this generation as DDR 1.5, ArtX's Macri said a better name is PC300 or PC333, because nothing on the chip is changed except the packaging. This generation could be available by the second half of next year, and will provide a transition to DDR-II using the same packaging."
Not sure about the rest of what you just put up, but I believe that this is more likely to be referring to DDR-II system RAM.

They are talking about availability in the second half of next year, which makes no sense for DDR-II on video cards since we know that nV30 will be using it in a couple of months.

Also, frequencies of 150 or 166MHz would be of no use on video cards, considering DDR-I has already reched speeds well in excess of that.

Finally, nobody uses labels like PC300 or PC333 on video card memory, but the do on system memory.

I think this information is rather a red herring.
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Old Nov 17, 2002, 11:11 AM   #30
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Thats right.
These giys (Graphics vendors) use premium Grade A tested ram. PC300 or 333 that has beed qualified at higher op ranges of PC400 and up. but that's not the point.
The significant portion is the packaging issue. By placing DDR-1 die in a DDR-2 compatible package qualifys it as DDR-2, or technically as DDR-1.5.

A well oiled marketing machine would of course state that it is DDR-2, and it would be a true statement.
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