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Old Aug 7, 2012, 11:46 AM   #1
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hulawafu77
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Default 7970M Enduro Issue

Hello Rage3D. I'm posting here as over the years I've noticed AMD does listen to Rage3D, even being the download site for the Catalyst Profiles for a while.

AMD has not responded or recognized our Enduro issue. Enduro causes the GPU Utilization to drop. You can witness GPU utilization in the beginning 80-99% with 70 FPS, then it just drops to 30-40% with barely 30 FPS. AlienWare owners can turn off Enduro, and they get steady high framerate and utilization. For Clevo owners with a muxless design, cannot turn it off. AW owners are not happy they have to turn off Enduro for this to function right.

We've tried everything. We've tried using throttlestop, tried disabling core parking, tried using the clock method, disabling ULPS, changing any setting in games, CCC, windows power management, nothing works. You say just lower settings in games? We do, we get the same framerate, just lower GPU utilization. It's really bizarre, and makes us sad pandas. We've tried WHQL drivers, official drivers from Clevo, beta drivers on Guru3D, LeshCat modded drivers, Benchmark modded drivers, nothing works.

The only solution we have found is, go green. Get a refund on the 7970M and go green. Since nothing is working.

Any help or suggestion be very grateful,

Digruntled 7970M owners.

Last edited by hulawafu77 : Aug 7, 2012 at 12:05 PM.
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Old Aug 7, 2012, 12:43 PM   #2
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the problem is seriously affecting my gaming experience. now i have to check if the game perform well with 7970m before i pay. this is very ridiculous and amd and clevo seems just to ignore this.

here is a video to show how bad the 7970m perform. the gpu loading is around 60% when pan to sky and 50% when pan to buildings. this lead to low fps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AijjXy1NPoo&feature=plcp
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Old Aug 7, 2012, 07:41 PM   #3
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Just a quick update. NBR notified that they deleted two threads and closed 1 thread so far at the request of Sager to help them maintain relations with AMD. It seems AMD made some legal threats at Sager, who so far is the only party in this fiasco involved who publicly admitted this problem exists and made effort to reach out to the community and find a solution.

Any help and suggestions from Rage3D community much appreciated.

Last edited by hulawafu77 : Aug 7, 2012 at 09:25 PM.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 04:59 AM   #4
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Another update: Was told this isn't just Clevo/Alienware/MSI. This issue affected all GCN based mobile GPUs. And so far the only response I've seen from AMD is, shut up.

Quote:
You forgot: everyone who owns a laptop with an AMD GCN-based card (HD 7730/7750/7850/7970M, so far) has this issue (except Alienware when the MUX Bypass is enabled).

This means, HP (Envy 15/17 with 7750/7850M), DELL (XPS 15/17 with 7730M) are all affected as well.

I have an HP Envy 17 with 7850M and I'm also experiencing this issue.

Apparently HP's solution for the previous-generation AMD cards (HD 6770/6850M/7690M/XT) was to release a BIOS update which added an option to change the switchable graphics mode from Dynamic to Fixed.

This effectively allowed forcing the dedicated GPU to be on at all times.

But the new Envy with Ivy Bridge and 7750/7850M does not have this BIOS option.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 07:03 AM   #5
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Another fail by AMD
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 11:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m4trix View Post
Another fail by AMD
And or Intell too.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 11:16 AM   #7
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i'm actually a bit disappointed that this has been going on for so long
and yet there's almost no official response from any party involved.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 11:20 AM   #8
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Given the information presented here it's hard to take anything to AMD; I've got nothing to work with. if individuals who are affected can post their problems and setups I can work with that.

I can't take 'this guy says he represents all enduro users and their problems' to anyone. I need more, simple, clear information about the problem, without the hyperbole about fail, no response, shut up etc.

Post the system, the drivers, the games and I can work with that. If it didn't happen to you directly, don't post it as if it did or that you represent some group of users.

I'm not apologizing or making excuses for AMD, but I've got no credible reports or information to go on here and no way to verify or check on this.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 11:49 AM   #9
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was reading up a bit about it, but here are some other threads.

official amd forums:
http://forums.amd.com/game/messagevi...&enterthread=y

a thread at nbr:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...t-blogger.html

looks like there was another very informative thread on nbr, but it was deleted
and google only has one page cached.

but as cmj has said,
perhaps you guys from nbr (and whomever else is affected by this issue) can
start posting here.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 02:01 PM   #10
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thanks for the links, I'll check into them.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 06:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caveman-jim View Post
thanks for the links, I'll check into them.
You're my hero. Thank you for taking the time. Awesome, awesome.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 07:56 PM   #12
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something doesn't smell right.. doing a quick search and nearly every thread can be directly linked back to the OP, including responses from the source thread "that were deleted" supposedly "by request of AMD" only later to find out AMD had nothing what so ever to do with said action ...

edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyingTroll
NBR was forced to delete a few threads in which NBR users were trying to find a solution to this Enduro issue. AMD sent a take down notice and it seemed made legal threats to both Sager and NBR.
This was later addressed by a NBR Mod, that said it was specifically Saber that initiated the request yet the OP continued to make baseless claims

Quote:
The end results were the same. So far the tally is 2 threads deleted and 1 thread closed due to pressure and threats from AMD, even if it was indirect through Sager.

The problem remains. AMD is at fault. Their 7970M costs around $600 and it doesn't work. The GPU utilization is low and affects ALL games.
then suddenly w/o much proof other than a misc thread posting or two.. the issue escalated to affect ALL GCN solutions ?!

Edit2: LOL Cavey .. your world famous now apparently:

Quote:
SUCCESS!!!

One of the most respected AMD supporter for that last 2 decades has taken notice and will read over our threads and see if he can do something about it. The creator of AMD Catalyst has mentioned him by name many times and responds to him on twitter personally and he has hosted AMD Profile when they were first announced. Caveman-Jim, just awesome. Very happy. We gotta keep getting this out in the open, force AMD to do something.
lulz epic circle jerk ftw
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 10:30 PM   #13
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yeah, i noticed this as well when i poked around, its all the same dude..

same bs on [H]ard OC, and Guru 3D as well. Same dude.

Last edited by The Mac : Aug 8, 2012 at 10:36 PM.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 10:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mac View Post
yeah, i noticed this as well when i poked around, its all the same dude..

same bs on [H]ard OC as well. Same dude.
Why is that a surprise, did it seem like I was trying to hide it? I used the same username. Guess you missed the point. Trying to get as much support as possible for this issue. Kinda bizarre you are surprised by that. Especially considering if you read the opening posts I clearly state why I created the threads and why I chose these forums. I put it out as clear as possible with my intent and the reason and the problem. Doesn't get any clearer than that. There is no attempt to hide or create some bizarre conspiracy to troll AMD...

Even a NBR mod is now actively involved in posting looking for solutions. He owns CFX Alienware 7970M that is borked, and Enduro seeming to effect him in a different way. But he is not alone, there have been numerous AW M18x CFX 7970M owners who have ventured into Clevo forum asking if we had a solution or ideas to help them resolve this frustrating Enduro issue.

But yes the countless threads on NBR were all started by me about the under-utilization issue, in the HP, Dell, Alienware, and Clevo forum. Yep it's all me, same dude.

Are you really that upset that I'm trying to find a solution to the incredibly borked Enduro issue I have with my 7970M and that EVERY mobile AMD GCN owner is affected by? Oh shame on me. Shame shame, I must be trolling.

Glad caveman-jim is willing to take a look at it and I hope he can see how widespread this issue is among ALL brands that use Enduro and the GCN core, and again, I express my gratitude for any ideas or suggestions and help you can provide. Much appreciated.

Last edited by hulawafu77 : Aug 8, 2012 at 11:37 PM.
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 10:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystik View Post
was reading up a bit about it, but here are some other threads.

official amd forums:
http://forums.amd.com/game/messagevi...&enterthread=y

a thread at nbr:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...t-blogger.html

looks like there was another very informative thread on nbr, but it was deleted
and google only has one page cached.

but as cmj has said,
perhaps you guys from nbr (and whomever else is affected by this issue) can
start posting here.
I'll let them know. But you are right, there were 3 threads, each more than 15 pages long that have either been closed or deleted in which users showed that every single driver, every third party efforts did not work and this affects all games. Every game from Rift, WoW, BF3, MP3, Just Cause 2, Shogun 2, Prototype 2, and more. These are just the games I've personally tested myself.

The number of threads on NBR about trying to find solutions to the borked Enduro affecting all mobile GCN cores from Dell, HP and Clevo seem endless. Almost seems there are countless of them and it keeps growing every day. This problem was detected since these mobile GCN cores were released, and absolutely no movement from AMD to fix it, that we could see at least.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...on-issues.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/alie...le-enduro.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...ro-issues.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...yours-too.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...0-problem.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...ns-enduro.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...0m-enduro.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...vo-7970-a.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/gami...xtra-heat.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...le-enduro.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/gami...hogun-2-a.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...ng-issues.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...-my-7970m.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...-petition.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...dvertised.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/alie...ro-normal.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...ff-enduro.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/gami...rfare-3-a.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...again-but.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...-bf3-60-a.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/hp-e...rce-7850m.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/hp-e...7850m-205.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/gami...games-now.html
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 11:16 PM   #16
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There are dozens of threads made by many users expressing this problem. It is not fishy, hulawafu just really cares. Look in the Sager/Clevo section of NBR and look around. I am having the same problem with my 7970m.

Stop pushing him around. If you would like me to personally made a video showing my GPU usage in GTA IV, ask me. In fact, ask every single Sager 7970m owner and see if you can find ONE that doesn't show under utilization in GTA IV.

BTW @md guy, you are completely wrong. The mod, and I QUOTE, said "The 7970M thread was closed by AMD's request which was passed onto me by Sager. Sager is not to blame, they did you guys a great favor by reaching out to you.

We have no obligation to comply with company 'orders'. However it makes sense to maintain a good faith relationship with them. As we are doing in this instance.
"
http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...in-but-13.html
And in the first page, Sager said:
"Hello,

Thanks to everyone for the great work on the testing and feedback of the under-utilization issue. For the time being, the threads have been removed per AMD Request. We will provide further information from AMD or Clevo when available.

Thanks,"
http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...again-but.html

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Old Aug 8, 2012, 11:30 PM   #17
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@md_Guy You are wrong. The AMD mod said "The 7970M thread was closed by AMD's request which was passed onto me by Sager. Sager is not to blame, they did you guys a great favor by reaching out to you."
Sager said:
"Hello,

Thanks to everyone for the great work on the testing and feedback of the under-utilization issue. For the time being, the threads have been removed per AMD Request. We will provide further information from AMD or Clevo when available.

Thanks,"

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sage...in-but-13.html
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Old Aug 8, 2012, 11:40 PM   #18
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I am an affected user. Thank you to taking the effort to making a problem like this known.

My patience is running out with the 7970M. If there's no driver released soon it will be sent back as Faulty end of story. I don't need to know the details, I know I have a laptop here with 7970M runs poorly, another matching system with nvidia card of a lower tier runs better.

The buck stops at AMD at the end of the day. Sure the vendors can help by offering work arounds.

If its a fault in the AMD drive. they can fix it.

If its because whoever's chip is at fault and not calling AMD instructions correctly, the can throw the gauntlet down and name the chipsets that are deemed 'incompatible'. Take themselves out of a trap market if thats what it is. But if they want the market share, they can take the extra mile to get everybody on board and the system working.

Lack of official AMD response says to me even they are unsure of what's going on, buying time politically so they don't make the wrong statement, WHICH IS JUST AS BAD for users who've already coffed up the dollars and is suffering the problem on what is suppose to be a superior system.

The people who is flaming the OP, if you want to run for AMD PR you are sending your resumes to the wrong place. We don't want to hear excuses or see any more finger pointing - especially NOT BACK ON US, we want ALL parties involved who already have our money to step up and provide solutions.
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Old Aug 9, 2012, 12:06 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @md_Guy View Post
something doesn't smell right.. doing a quick search and nearly every thread can be directly linked back to the OP, including responses from the source thread "that were deleted" supposedly "by request of AMD" only later to find out AMD had nothing what so ever to do with said action ...
You couldn't be further from the truth. I did not create the threads that were closed and deleted. In fact, I spend much of my time on NBR defending AMD and well known to be a AMD fan for their price/performance benefits. I've been an AMD owner for a while, since using the ATi 9600M Pro to the AMD HD5870M and when I decided to make a huge upgrade on from my Asus G73JH, I chose the 7970M rather than the 675M or 680M. I did the same with Asus, I could have gotten the G73JW with the 460M, but instead I went with the G73JH with 5870M. I've been very consistent in my notebook purchasing decisions to support the underdog when I can (ATi/AMD).

But thanks for trying to make me look like a AMD lyingtroll. But if anyone is interested, they can see my posts and clearly see that I am in fact a fan of AMD, and I'm sticking it out with the 7970M looking for a solution. That's it, not looking for a civil law suit or anything like that. This is AMD's fault for not providing drivers that actually work and function properly with Enduro 3 months ago.
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Old Aug 9, 2012, 01:16 AM   #20
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I am also a 7970m owner and I am experiencing the GPU utilization issue. I don't care one way or another who fixes it, though I believe the issue lies with AMD's drivers.

I would be happy to take screenshots/run benchmarks/whatever else may help for anyone who wants them.

Last edited by Wolfester : Aug 9, 2012 at 01:42 AM.
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Old Aug 9, 2012, 01:23 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hulawafu77 View Post
Why is that a surprise, did it seem like I was trying to hide it? I used the same username. Guess you missed the point. Trying to get as much support as possible for this issue. Kinda bizarre you are surprised by that. Especially considering if you read the opening posts I clearly state why I created the threads and why I chose these forums. I put it out as clear as possible with my intent and the reason and the problem. Doesn't get any clearer than that. There is no attempt to hide or create some bizarre conspiracy to troll AMD...
You forget dude, it's gotta be a conspiracy duhh.

Anyway I too have this issue and have tried every driver release under the sun but nothing fixes it. The problem exists with all 7970m cards running Enduro through the iGPU, I heard it even exists with all 7***m cards as well. It's beyond a joke that AMD still have not acknowledged this.

EDIT: I too am from NBR.
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Old Aug 9, 2012, 02:36 AM   #22
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This problem is definitely for real. The issues with Enduro is only part of the situation. The 7970M product has some major problems. I regret ever seeing these GPUs because they don't work correctly. And, AMD does not have any driver that properly supports them.
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Old Aug 9, 2012, 03:23 AM   #23
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For whatever reason, TantraLocked has been unable to post here, so asked I post this for him.

He just wanted to clarify, with direct quotes from the lead moderator on NBR and Sager that it is AMD that requested the threads to be closed/deleted.
- On NBR, GCN owners are starting to compare AMD's behavior to when Nvidia denied that they were releasing faulty 8xxx series, which they were later then sued by the OEM/Brands and consumers were able to get either partial refund or replacement notebooks.


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Old Aug 9, 2012, 03:46 AM   #24
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They where not deleted, the spam filter tagged them by mistake and put them in mod-que. Sorry for the wait on approving them.
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Old Aug 9, 2012, 03:55 AM   #25
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Great to see so many new users suddenly.
But if any of you have the problem, please post the laptop model, os, driver edition etc. And which game, and if possible where in the game you experience this. Unless you post this noone can help.

Lets try to keep the tone civil and informative in this thread. And its meaningless that 40 people sign in to say that it's a conspiracy or whatever.

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Old Aug 9, 2012, 08:21 AM   #26
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Clevo P150EM
7970M
Windows 7 64
I've tried em all. WHQL 12.6, various 12.7 betas, LeshCat, Benchmark3D, anything on Guru3D, official 12.5 from Clevo.
All games are affected. ME3, BF3, Prototype 2, Shogun 2, MW3, Rift, Lineage 2, WoW, Just Cause 2, Alice Return, Max Payne 3
Occurs all the time in game.
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Old Aug 9, 2012, 09:02 AM   #27
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It is definitely not a conspiracy... just an engineering error and lack of adequate driver support.

I posted at Rage3D, as I would like to see this get enough attention to create an incentive for AMD take appropriate action on correcting their engineering mistakes and driver issues. As far as being called a jerk or a troll, that kind of goes with the territory when you have to deal with fanboys that believe their favorite brand is without flaw. They often assume that if they are having no issues that anyone that is having them must be a troll or somehow causing their own problems. They are sometime overly forgiving of problems even when they are experiencing them. Plus, nobody likes being told their baby is ugly, LOL. So, don't worry too much about that. Try to ignore it. It looks like there are lots of people affirming the fact that 7970M (and other GCN-based GPUs) and Enduro technology are not working correctly, so the fanboy will end up looking like the fool for not being able to accept the reality of the situation. The ability to disable Enduro is a huge advantage for the Alienware owners that own a system which has Enduro, but doing so doesn't correct any underlying issues with the AMD technology itself... it simply avoids the issues. That is an excellent reason to buy an Alienware versus a competitor's system. It's also an excellent reason to buy a different brand of GPU if Alienware is not your cup of tea.
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Old Aug 9, 2012, 09:18 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutalix View Post
Great to see so many new users suddenly.
But if any of you have the problem, please post the laptop model, os, driver edition etc. And which game, and if possible where in the game you experience this. Unless you post this noone can help.

Lets try to keep the tone civil and informative in this thread. And its meaningless that 40 people sign in to say that it's a conspiracy or whatever.

Kind Regards
Brut.
Your friendly linux neighboor.
No one is saying that it is a conspiracy. We are just trying to get word out about the problem as it seems to be widely unknown. There does not seem to be any way for the user to fix the problem themselves, so I wouldn't say that were are looking for help, but rather that we are looking for recognition from AMD so that they can fix their problem. We all know how new technology releases take some time to fine-tune, and we are aware that Nvidia suffered from the exact same problems when they first released Optimus, but now it is on AMD to follow suit and fix the problems.

The fact is, every single 7900M series user, across all laptop manufacturers (Sager, Alienware, HP, etc.) has this exact same problem with Enduro. Some, like Alienware, have a design that allows them to bypass Enduro, which fixes their problems. This shows that the 7970M is a perfectly functional card when not hampered by Enduro, so it is clearly a driver issue. Considering that it took a couple of months and pestering from laptop manufacturers to even get AMD to recognize the issue, we think that a little public awareness of the issue will influence AMD to work faster, as they have in the past.
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Old Aug 9, 2012, 09:40 AM   #29
hulawafu77
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Problem for me with this list the games and drivers etc is that there aren't any drivers that have proper support for GCN switchable Enduro tech. So every driver and every game is affected for me. Some better than most since some games I can crank out 45 FPS ok with only 60% utilization, but others I get angry because I get 70 FPS when I see it at 95% utilization initially, but predictably, it throttles down to 50% and my framerate will dip below 30 FPS.

Annoyed.
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Old Aug 9, 2012, 01:38 PM   #30
shadowprophet99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @md_Guy View Post
something doesn't smell right.. doing a quick search and nearly every thread can be directly linked back to the OP, including responses from the source thread "that were deleted" supposedly "by request of AMD" only later to find out AMD had nothing what so ever to do with said action ...

edit:



This was later addressed by a NBR Mod, that said it was specifically Saber that initiated the request yet the OP continued to make baseless claims



then suddenly w/o much proof other than a misc thread posting or two.. the issue escalated to affect ALL GCN solutions ?!

Edit2: LOL Cavey .. your world famous now apparently:



lulz epic circle jerk ftw
I don't know where you're getting the idea that Hulawafu is the only one posting about this stuff... He's simply been the most proactive about a problem that EVERYONE is having with their card. I've been following the issue pretty closely, right from when people first started to notice the under-utilization issue facing the 7xxxm series. Clevo's older model (their P1x0HM) don't support switchable graphics, and don't have the issue. Every laptop that DOES support switchable graphics has an issue with AMD's enduro, but not with Nvidia's optimus. It's clearly an AMD issue, and it's affecting a LOT of people...

Forum users over at NBR have been raging about it, but basically sitting on their hands *waiting* for a driver update that will fix this issue, but AMD's notoriously bad driver update history has a lot of people worried that the issue won't get resolved unless it's made public. Hulawafu was motivated to go and start posts on a couple other boards to try and get the word out because, in the past, it's been shown that this is the only real way to get a fire lit under AMD's proverbial bottom.

Don't knock him for that, his efforts should be respected. So all that being said... What exactly would you like the 7970m users over at NBR to get you for you to see it's not the rants of a single unhappy user? Would you like everyone to get screenshots of utilization? benchmarks? What is it you need for convincing?
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