Assassin's Creed DX10.1 - Digging Deeper

***Lupine*** · Apr 28, 2008, 11:40 PM

Soon after Rage3D's initial Assassin's Creed DX10.1 investigation, Ubisoft announced the removal of DX10.1 support from the game via an upcoming patch. With little detail into the reasons of removal, the official statement on the cryptic side, questions regarding the differences in Image Quality (IQ) between the DX10 and DX10.1 pathways prompted us to investigate further.

Assassin's Creed DX10.1 - Addendum

damicatz · Apr 29, 2008, 12:01 AM

The only problem with that explanation is that particles (including soft particles, aka particles with depth masks) aren't done at the post process stage unless you are using a deferred renderer.

And I seriously doubt that a few missing particles would cause such a performance difference (unless Ubisoft is worse at writing code than I already thought).

gamefoo21 · Apr 29, 2008, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damicatz

The only problem with that explanation is that particles (including soft particles, aka particles with depth masks) aren't done at the post process stage unless you are using a deferred renderer.

And I seriously doubt that a few missing particles would cause such a performance difference (unless Ubisoft is worse at writing code than I already thought).

*cough* Nvidia *cough*

Wouldn't be the first Ubisoft or Nvidia sponsored game to suddenly lose a feature, then get it get it back once team green can support it.

Sharkfood · Apr 29, 2008, 03:23 AM

Very nice series of articles and investigative work. Lupine & Morgoth- your efforts are appreciated and I've really enjoyed both of the articles in this series.

Qb2k5 · Apr 29, 2008, 03:42 AM

Nice article. Too bad Im planning to get it for the 360.

Arghuin · Apr 29, 2008, 04:08 AM

An excellent article, which only goes on to show the massive difference in devrel strength between the two companies

In my opinion, while no-one can 'accuse' Ubisoft at this point of removing said support to 'fix' things (at the end of the day it's their software and they should know better what needs and doesnt need doing, regardless of any conspiracy theories out there), one cant stop people from thinking that nV might have had a hand in this whole story.

So, I suppose the real question(S) now are: will the dx10.1 support and 'bug fixes' be implemented back in the game before nVidia actually has dx10.1-capable hardware available?

If yes, kudos to Ubi for doing all that's necessary and supporting their product. If not, I'm not buying a Ubisoft game again, ever. 'Cause like I said, it's their software, but hey, its my money

AlexV · Apr 29, 2008, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damicatz

The only problem with that explanation is that particles (including soft particles, aka particles with depth masks) aren't done at the post process stage unless you are using a deferred renderer.

And I seriously doubt that a few missing particles would cause such a performance difference (unless Ubisoft is worse at writing code than I already thought).

Then it's good that AC, at least in its DX10 incarnation is most certainly a deferred renderer, and that the performance benefits manifest themselves even in scenes that do not involve the troublesome dust. You'd think we had explained these, especially the second part, in our article.

Danny Nissan · Apr 29, 2008, 05:43 AM

Nice article and screenshots, thanks

SIrPauly · Apr 29, 2008, 07:06 AM

Everytime I read dust in the article the term "pixie dust" entered my mind from a silly point-of-view; it was like this pixie dust was the magic element of 10.1 and needed to be addressed -- can't have missing "pixie dust" in a game.

My main concern is the performance attributes gained by 10.1 and so far it seems 10.1 adds these with shader resolve. Wish there were other examples -- even synthetic examples - anything that would add more data here.

shootMasterxy · Apr 29, 2008, 01:32 PM

hmm..my card doesn't support dx10.1.

Humus · Apr 29, 2008, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damicatz

The only problem with that explanation is that particles (including soft particles, aka particles with depth masks) aren't done at the post process stage unless you are using a deferred renderer.

Any particular reason why it matters if it's in the post process stage or elsewhere?

damicatz · Apr 29, 2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humus

Any particular reason why it matters if it's in the post process stage or elsewhere?

Ubisoft stated that a pass was missing from the post-process stage in DX10.1 and that this was what caused the framerate differences.

AlexV · Apr 29, 2008, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damicatz

Ubisoft stated that a pass was missing from the post-process stage in DX10.1 and that this was what caused the framerate differences.

Why did everyone choose to read it like that?Why not read it as they probably intended it to be read:we have this DX10.1 thingie, it brings additional functionality, we can drop one(costly) rendering pass by taking advantage of that functionality and by doing so improve performance. Yey!

Don't you think that someone would've noticed the disappearance of one rendering pass that actually produced visual defficiencies(beyond the dust anomaly which seems to be related to how they coded one of their shaders)?I perhaps am blind, but if Kyle and his guys couldn't find it, odds are it isn't there(the IQ degradation).

Drexion · Apr 29, 2008, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamefoo21

Wouldn't be the first Ubisoft or Nvidia sponsored game to suddenly lose a feature, then get it get it back once team green can support it.

Exactly. And its poor when the dev lies about it.

Like when ATI supported HDR+AA in Call of Juarez years ago (for the EU release), but the devs lied and said the game engine wouldn't allow it and disallowed it in the game menus. (even though users found workarounds to get it working)

Then when nVidia released its next batch of cards which could do HDR+AA, the devs said "oh we just noticed the engine can do it, we'll unlock it next patch".

LOL what a farking joke.

cvearl · Apr 29, 2008, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharkfood

Very nice series of articles and investigative work. Lupine & Morgoth- your efforts are appreciated and I've really enjoyed both of the articles in this series.

+1

Dave Baumann · Apr 29, 2008, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qb2k5

Nice article. Too bad Im planning to get it for the 360.

Curious, why? Isn't it cheaper for the PC?

(Of course, if you're an achievement hunter I can understand that!

)

nomore · Apr 29, 2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Baumann

Curious, why? Isn't it cheaper for the PC?

(Of course, if you're an achievement hunter I can understand that!

)

probably because amazon has ps3 and xbox360 version for $30 where pc version is for 40 bucks:
http://www.amazon.com/UBI-Soft-Assas...9519877&sr=8-1

Treeckcold57 · Apr 29, 2008, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomore

probably because amazon has ps3 and xbox360 version for $30 where pc version is for 40 bucks:
http://www.amazon.com/UBI-Soft-Assas...9519877&sr=8-1

oh damn! Why you didn't tell me about that pretty good deal before?

nomore · Apr 29, 2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treeckcold57

oh damn! Why you didn't tell me about that pretty good deal before?

I post PC gaming deals not console gaming deals.

SSXeon · May 1, 2008, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Baumann

Curious, why? Isn't it cheaper for the PC?

(Of course, if you're an achievement hunter I can understand that!

)

DAMN!

Faceless Rebel · May 1, 2008, 01:11 AM

I've had the 360 version since before Christmas when it was on sale at Best Buy for $35. Still haven't beaten it, though.

Jokerzwild · May 1, 2008, 01:23 PM

I wanted it for the pc but I saw it used for the PS3 the other day so I couldn't resist. Been wanting to play it and my PS3 library is sad so I jumped on it.

On topic: Very good investigation guys, keep it up! Makes me sad I don't have a 38xx to check out this stuff myself.

erek · May 1, 2008, 02:32 PM

saving a screenshot to a compressed and overall reducing of quality format - (JPEG) is inaccurate for comparing AA and this review does just that...

...i read this article prior to reading any kind of comments or responses and intuition has me thinking that too much of a big deal in terms of marketing and hype is being put forth

Quote:

"Ubisoft are at the forefront of technology adoption, as showcased with the fantastic Assassin’s Creed title. In this instance our developer relations team worked directly with the developer and found an area of code that could be executed more optimally under DX10.1 operation, thus benefiting the ATI Radeon HD 3000 Series."

there is less feeling from this being a massive deal... its averagely 20% improved AA performance, but is that consistent? consider what all the frames tend towards... higher or lower?

AlexV · May 1, 2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erek

saving a screenshot to a compressed and overall reducing of quality format - (JPEG) is inaccurate for comparing AA and this review does just that...

...i read this article prior to reading any kind of comments or responses and intuition has me thinking that too much of a big deal in terms of marketing and hype is being put forth

[/i]there is less feeling from this being a massive deal... its averagely 20% improved AA performance, but is that consistent? consider what all the frames tend towards... higher or lower?

Yes, because an edge can suddenly receive no AA when JPEG is used. Really.

Do you have trouble accesing the high resolution pngs?You know, the ones we put up going through quite a bit of pain so ppl can actually compare IQ?The ones included in the article you're commenting about?You're the first one.

The last paragraph is incredibly hard to understand-what are you inquiring about?

erek · May 1, 2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth Bauglir

Yes, because an edge can suddenly receive no AA when JPEG is used. Really.

Do you have trouble accesing the high resolution pngs?You know, the ones we put up going through quite a bit of pain so ppl can actually compare IQ?The ones included in the article you're commenting about?You're the first one.

the reduction of quality by using JPEG compression changes the image, so its inaccurate. i am far from saying anything about AA being gone, but an image in JPEG format is less than desirable for close scrutinty... scrutinizing a similar looking picture is far from the real deal...in general

http://www.rage3d.com/image.php?pic=/articles/assassinscreed/pics/aadx101.jpg&comment=AA%20as%20seen%20on%20the%203870X2%20with%20SP1%20installed
(aadx101.jpg)

that's one of the image links i get directly from:
http://www.rage3d.com/articles/assas.../index.php?p=4

***Lupine*** · May 1, 2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erek

the reduction of quality by using JPEG compression changes the image, so its inaccurate. i am far from saying anything about AA being gone, but an image in JPEG format is less than desirable for close scrutinty... scrutinizing a similar looking picture is far from the real deal...in general

Then reference the pictures from the addendum article.

AlexV · May 1, 2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erek

the reduction of quality by using JPEG compression changes the image, so its inaccurate. i am far from saying anything about AA being gone, but an image in JPEG format is less than desirable for close scrutinty... scrutinizing a similar looking picture is far from the real deal...in general

http://www.rage3d.com/image.php?pic=...P1%20installed
(aadx101.jpg)

that's one of the image links i get directly from:
http://www.rage3d.com/articles/assas.../index.php?p=4

You are aware that you're posting comments in the thread that's dedicated to an article about AC that adresses that very concern of yours, yes?One about IQ?With high-resolution PNGs included?Per pixel comparisons?

You are also aware that the article you're talking about had a different purpose, and for showing that an edge receives no AA with DX10 whilst it is being AAed with 10.1 a JPEG is more than adequate-it is not adequate for comparing overall IQ, of course...and so we come back to what I wrote in the first paragraph.

erek · May 1, 2008, 03:26 PM

i understand now, sorry

...still though there is better ways to relate your understanding to others... took a bit more paying attention cause of the lack of emphasis on what's overall going on... had to re-read towards the end of the first page and the page with the sp1/no sp1 comparisons

AlexV · May 1, 2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erek

i understand now, sorry

...still though there is better ways to relate your understanding to others... took a bit more paying attention cause of the lack of emphasis on what's overall going on... had to re-read towards the end of the first page and the page with the sp1/no sp1 comparisons

Ehm?

erek · May 1, 2008, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth Bauglir

Ehm?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth Bauglir

You are also aware that the article you're talking about had a different purpose, and for showing that an edge receives no AA with DX10 whilst it is being AAed with 10.1 a JPEG is more than adequate-it is not adequate for comparing overall IQ, of course...and so we come back to what I wrote in the first paragraph.

...i didn't get that from my first look at the review, and had to look "deeper" to understand the purpose of the article...

Apr 28, 2008, 11:40 PM	#1	Advertisement (Guests Only) Login or Register to remove this ad
*Lupine* Administrator Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Graham, WA Posts: 25,399	Assassin's Creed DX10.1 - Digging Deeper Soon after Rage3D's initial Assassin's Creed DX10.1 investigation, Ubisoft announced the removal of DX10.1 support from the game via an upcoming patch. With little detail into the reasons of removal, the official statement on the cryptic side, questions regarding the differences in Image Quality (IQ) between the DX10 and DX10.1 pathways prompted us to investigate further. Assassin's Creed DX10.1 - Addendum __________________ In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress. - John Adams Not because of who I am, but because of what You've done ~ not because of what I've done, but because of who You are. - Casting Crowns

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Apr 29, 2008, 12:01 AM	#2
damicatz Radeon HD 4830 Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 168	The only problem with that explanation is that particles (including soft particles, aka particles with depth masks) aren't done at the post process stage unless you are using a deferred renderer. And I seriously doubt that a few missing particles would cause such a performance difference (unless Ubisoft is worse at writing code than I already thought). Last edited by damicatz : Apr 29, 2008 at 12:09 AM.

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Apr 29, 2008, 03:23 AM	#4
Sharkfood Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 2,373	Very nice series of articles and investigative work. Lupine & Morgoth- your efforts are appreciated and I've really enjoyed both of the articles in this series. __________________ Asus P5K Deluxe/WiFi, 4GB DDR2-1066, Vista, VisionTek 4870. Please report your driver issues to ATI: Catalyst Driver Feedback

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Apr 29, 2008, 03:42 AM	#5
Qb2k5 Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Florida Posts: 9,161	Nice article. Too bad Im planning to get it for the 360. __________________ "Q to the U to the E to the B Thats how you spell the upcomer Que-B" QueB

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Apr 29, 2008, 04:08 AM	#6
Arghuin Nexus 6 Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Athens, Hellas Posts: 1,043	An excellent article, which only goes on to show the massive difference in devrel strength between the two companies In my opinion, while no-one can 'accuse' Ubisoft at this point of removing said support to 'fix' things (at the end of the day it's their software and they should know better what needs and doesnt need doing, regardless of any conspiracy theories out there), one cant stop people from thinking that nV might have had a hand in this whole story. So, I suppose the real question(S) now are: will the dx10.1 support and 'bug fixes' be implemented back in the game before nVidia actually has dx10.1-capable hardware available? If yes, kudos to Ubi for doing all that's necessary and supporting their product. If not, I'm not buying a Ubisoft game again, ever. 'Cause like I said, it's their software, but hey, its my money

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Apr 29, 2008, 05:43 AM	#8
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Apr 29, 2008, 07:06 AM	#9
SIrPauly Did someone say, RGSSAA? Join Date: May 2001 Location: New England Posts: 8,987	Everytime I read dust in the article the term "pixie dust" entered my mind from a silly point-of-view; it was like this pixie dust was the magic element of 10.1 and needed to be addressed -- can't have missing "pixie dust" in a game. My main concern is the performance attributes gained by 10.1 and so far it seems 10.1 adds these with shader resolve. Wish there were other examples -- even synthetic examples - anything that would add more data here.

Apr 29, 2008, 01:32 PM	#10
shootMasterxy Masters of the Universe Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Mostar Posts: 723	hmm..my card doesn't support dx10.1. __________________ check out my music on MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/alenmilivojevicmusic

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May 1, 2008, 01:11 AM	#21
Faceless Rebel ALL HAIL BRITANNIA! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Holy Empire of Britannia - Pacific Coast Area (Northwest Block) Posts: 570	I've had the 360 version since before Christmas when it was on sale at Best Buy for $35. Still haven't beaten it, though.

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May 1, 2008, 01:23 PM	#22
Jokerzwild Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 5,471	I wanted it for the pc but I saw it used for the PS3 the other day so I couldn't resist. Been wanting to play it and my PS3 library is sad so I jumped on it. On topic: Very good investigation guys, keep it up! Makes me sad I don't have a 38xx to check out this stuff myself.

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May 1, 2008, 03:26 PM	#28
erek Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,461	i understand now, sorry ...still though there is better ways to relate your understanding to others... took a bit more paying attention cause of the lack of emphasis on what's overall going on... had to re-read towards the end of the first page and the page with the sp1/no sp1 comparisons __________________ eBay Feedback Heatware Feedback Last edited by erek : May 1, 2008 at 03:30 PM.

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