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Old Jan 14, 2008, 10:23 AM   #1
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ReiaH
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Default Am I semi Retarded?

So I bought 4gb of ram and a 32bit Vista with that, and I can only see 3,2 gb of that ram supported. So whats up with that, cause I recall that 32bit vista only supports 3,2gb ram..is that true? or am I semi retarded?
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 10:46 AM   #2
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32bit windows will only see 3-3.5gb of installed RAM because of ancient design limitations in the motherboard. Windows itself can see 4Gb, or more depending on version and supporting hardware.

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Due to design decisions made by IBM (not Microsoft) the IBM PC could only use 640 kilobytes of its 1 megabyte memory map to address main memory. The rest was taken up with video memory, BIOS ROM, and various devices. So a full 37.5% of the memory map was out of bounds, imposing the infamous 640K limit on how much RAM you could fit, before having to resort to all sorts of hacks that never really worked very satisfactorily.

Then 32-bit systems came along. A few years later, 32-bit the mainstream OS market caught up. The 640K limit was relegated to a painful footnote in the history of the PC. (Yes, I know I just ignored about half a decade of the horrors of not-quite-32-bit operating systems, where the ghost of the 16-bit machine could still haunt you. But I for one ran Linux on the first PC I owned back in 1993, and then installed Windows NT in 1994 and haven't looked back, so I was able to avoid most of that carnage.)

To address 4GB of memory you need 32 bits of address bus. (Assuming individual bytes are addressable.) This gives us a problem - the same problem that IBM faced when designing the original PC. You tend to want to have more than just memory in a computer - you need things like graphics cards and hard disks to be accessible to the computer in order for it to be able to use them. So just as the original PC had to carve up the 8086's 1MB addressing range into memory (640K) and 'other' (384K), the same problem exists today if you want to fit memory and devices into a 32-bit address range: not all of the available 4GB of address space can be given over to memory.

This shouldn't be a problem. Contrary to popular belief, Intel's 32-bit CPUs have more than 32 address pins. They actually have 36, giving them the ability to address a 64GB physical address space. This means that you should in theory be able to fit 4GB of RAM, and still have plenty of space for memory mapped devices. In fact you can fit a whole lot more than 4GB.

Unfortunately it's not always so simple.

Historically, the PCI bus in most ordinary PCs has shared the same physical address space as the CPU. This means that if a device on the PCI bus looks at physical address 0x12345678, it will see exactly the same thing as the CPU would if it looked at the same physical address. It doesn't have to be this way of course - the CPU bus and the PCI bus are physically separate, and are connected by a bridging chip of some kind. This bridge could in theory perform some kind of mapping between addresses on the two buses. But for a long time, this didn't happen in PCs.

Windows NT/2000/XP/2003 has always supported mapping between PCI buses and the main system bus. This was necessary because back in the day when NT supported RISC systems, most of those did actually perform such a mapping. I used to write device drivers for DEC Alpha systems, and with those, the physical address the CPU used to access a particular bit of memory was usually different from the address used on the PCI bus. So if you write a device driver and wish to access a memory-mapped device, or get the device to perform some DMA, you are required to use system calls to find out what addresses the device will use on the PCI bus, and what physical address this corresponds to on the system bus. (Which will of course be different again from the virtual address of the memory in question.)

Presumably the reason PC architecture machines didn't do this is that this mapping layer increases costs, and makes it harder to achieve performance goals. So for years, the address map of the PCI bus and the address map of the system bus have been one and the same thing in the PC. (So the mapping APIs ended up passing you back the same address you passed in. Doubtless there are loads of device drivers out there that take advantage of this, omitting this call as an 'optimization'.) For a long time this wasn't a problem, because there was a whole 4GB of address space, so devices typically lurk up in the top 1GB of physical address space, leaving the bottom 3GB for memory.

So what actually happens if you go out and buy 4GB of memory for your PC? Well, it's just like the DOS days - there's a hole in your memory map for the IO. (Now it's only 25% of the total address space, but it's still a big hole.) So the bottom 3GB of your memory will be available, but there's an issue with that last 1GB.

If you're lucky, your PC will be able to do something clever. The usual solution is to make that last gigabyte appear further up in the memory map. So your memory's all still available, it just happens not to be contiguous. The first 3GB are present where you'd expect to find them, then there's a 1GB hole, reserved for devices, and the 4th GB of memory appears in the 5th GB of address space. So if you chose your motherboard wisely/flukily, all 4GB will be available to you.
How can you know which kind of motherboard to buy in order to avoid this? Right now it's not all that easy to tell actually, short of reading the datasheets for the chipset... If the mobo can take more than 4GB of memory, then you might be OK. Although they might just take the attitude of "If you can afford to fit 32GB of memory, you can afford for 1GB to go missing"...

In short, caveat emptor.
http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/iangblo...05/is3gbenough

More info on Why you cant see all 4Gb on your machine

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Old Jan 14, 2008, 11:03 AM   #3
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Also, what's hinted at here but not explicitely stated, is that if you have a memory remap function in your motherboard's BIOS, you will need to use Physical Address Extensions (the /PAE switch for boot.ini) to be able to see and use the RAM added to the memory table, if that address range is above 4Gb.
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 11:09 AM   #4
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Yes. But what you're seeing is normal too.
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 11:27 AM   #5
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why 32bit may I ask?
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 11:32 AM   #6
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I dont know..I asked the guy in the store what the difference between 64bit vista and 32 was..he said that 64bit was 3d..I Lol,d and bought the 32bit immiediatly.
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 11:40 AM   #7
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Ouch. My brain hurts...
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 11:46 AM   #8
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There's some pics in the linked blog, might help you out a bit
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 12:10 PM   #9
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still retarded though
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 12:26 PM   #10
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No, the sales guy telling Reiah that the difference between 32bit and 64bit was 3D, that's what hurt my brain. I'd LOVE the phone number of the place that told him that. I'm not allowed to chew people up on the forums anymore, so calling that salesman and eating his lunch would just make my day
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 01:25 PM   #11
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Someone should make a sticky about this. This questions gets asked all the time.

Edit: nevermind

I guess Im going semi retarded.
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 01:32 PM   #12
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 04:19 PM   #13
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So the jurys out, I wasnt semi retarded after all.
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 04:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiaH View Post
So the jurys out, I wasnt semi retarded after all.
No, just lied to by the salesman. You should go back in there and eat his lunch. I'd be all over that dummy.
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 06:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moshpit View Post
No, just lied to by the salesman. You should go back in there and eat his lunch. I'd be all over that dummy.
Its not polite to correct people
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 06:47 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimadrift View Post
Its not polite to correct people
I've never been an overly polite person. Polite is for pansies
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 06:53 PM   #17
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damn, foiled by rage3d members again. opened software is not eligible for refund

btw, doesn't microsoft allow you to order 64bit media if you've bought the 32bit version?
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Old Jan 14, 2008, 06:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seeker010 View Post
damn, foiled by rage3d members again. opened software is not eligible for refund

btw, doesn't microsoft allow you to order 64bit media if you've bought the 32bit version?
Yes.
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Old Feb 11, 2008, 11:10 AM   #19
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Note one of the changes for Vista SP1:

Quote:
With SP1, Windows Vista will report the amount of system memory installed rather than report the amount of system memory available to the OS. Therefore 32-bit systems equipped with 4GB of RAM will report all 4GB in many places throughout the OS, such as the System Control Panel. However, this behavior is dependent on having a compatible BIOS, so not all users may notice this change.
Notable Changes in Vista SP1
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Old Feb 11, 2008, 11:24 AM   #20
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Now Microsoft is going to get sued for 'misadvertising' the amount of memory available, joining ranks w/ monitor and hard drive mfgs.
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Old Feb 11, 2008, 12:01 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Now Microsoft is going to get sued for 'misadvertising' the amount of memory available, joining ranks w/ monitor and hard drive mfgs.
There never should have been a 32-bit version of Vista.
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Old Feb 11, 2008, 12:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guest View Post
There never should have been a 32-bit version of Vista.
QFT.
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Old Feb 11, 2008, 01:23 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupine View Post
QFT.
I agree, but...

MS doesn't really care about us.

They care about the mainstream market, who wouldn't have been ready for x64.

Now with RAM limitations forcing a switch to x64, it'll be interesting to see how they handle the transition in Windows 7.
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Old Feb 11, 2008, 02:19 PM   #24
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There had to be a 32bit version of Vista, given the lack of manufacturers developing good 64bit drivers before release, and the new driver model with signed driver enforcement. For Windows 7 I will be dissapointed if there is not a 64bit only push.
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Old Feb 11, 2008, 02:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -n7- View Post
I agree, but...

MS doesn't really care about us.

They care about the mainstream market, who wouldn't have been ready for x64.

Now with RAM limitations forcing a switch to x64, it'll be interesting to see how they handle the transition in Windows 7.
I'd be very surprised if there was a 32-bit version of Windows 7.
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Old Feb 11, 2008, 03:09 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post
I'd be very surprised if there was a 32-bit version of Windows 7.
Then you'll be surprised.

There will be some form of x86 version of Windows 7, mark this my words (or this post ).

I just hope they push x64 as the primary/good choice, & i think they will.
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 07:23 AM   #27
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This where researching before you buy is a good thing. I do not trust sales people as that is what they are doing selling. I will take the opinion and knowledge of users over that any day.
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 08:14 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Its not polite to correct people
Yes, I'm sure I'd like to be in the dark
FFS, not polite to correct people when they are wrong? What the bloody hell is that suppost to mean
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 08:17 AM   #29
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32bit needs to die... and fast
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Old Feb 12, 2008, 08:19 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tisti View Post
Yes, I'm sure I'd like to be in the dark
FFS, not polite to correct people when they are wrong? What the bloody hell is that suppost to mean
I think you missed the joke on that one.
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