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Old Sep 28, 2006, 03:46 PM   #1
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Pirate Neilsouth
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Default Check out the possible info on next ati tray tools WOW!

Quote:
News about next release
At this moment I'm finishing adding new method of overclocking for R5xx boards. This method will be called "Driver Level".
What will do this method:
1. Overclocking will be done by Catalyst itself like Overdrive
2. Voltage will be applied by driver for GPU and by ATT for memory
3. ATT will emulate Overdrive job, but will allow to set clocks when you want it instead of when you run full screen 3D application.
4. This should work even if you didn't disable ATI HotKey poller! And clocks will not resets by that service in 3D games
5. With this method clocks will not resets when you play any video files (checked on my 1800XT, no more resets)
6. More stable overclocking. Catalyst know HOW to do overclock job better that any other utils
________
I hope this method will work without problems, but there are some disadvantages:
1. It seems that this method can be used only on video boards with Overdrive support (I will check it with non Overdrive board 1600Pro)
2. The step in MHz will be higher than in Low Level ( about 6MHz)
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Old Sep 28, 2006, 03:53 PM   #2
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This is very sweet stuff. I just dumped ATITool for good after using both ATITool and ATT for quite some time.
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Old Sep 28, 2006, 04:03 PM   #3
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i just wish att would allow me to choose aa/af/vsync settings that work. it sometimes works and mostly doesn't.

i'm not sure if it's att's fault but i've tried ccc + att, ccc + no att and att + no ccc and all exhibit the same behavior. i've reinstalled the drivers and still the same (6.8).

i have to use reset display driver in combination with unload att's low level driver and stopping and restarting att. it's a lot more art than science and it bugs me when i have to try for 5-10 mins just to get a certain set of settings to play one game. and no, profiles wouldn't work because i don't use just one setting for each game.

at least with opengl, it works 100% of the time when ccc mode is not emulated, otherwise it tries to link ogl and d3d which sucks.

this is the single biggest issue i have currently.

i'm not sure what the problem is but maybe ray adams has some more info about this.

and a quick question... how come it isn't possible to apply settings to d3d mode instantly like opengl (click apply and it instantly changes). i'm sure it's some crappy DX related issue but it would be so nice if it could work that way.
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Old Sep 28, 2006, 04:28 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThereIsASpoon View Post
i just wish att would allow me to choose aa/af/vsync settings that work. it sometimes works and mostly doesn't.
.
That happened with me when ati smart was disabled, and also make sure you load the profile everytime windows is restarted.. it tends to help me
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Old Sep 28, 2006, 04:44 PM   #5
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i have ati hotkey poller enabled if that's what you're referring to. ati smart is for agp...? i'm using a pci-e x1900xt.
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Old Sep 28, 2006, 05:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThereIsASpoon View Post
i have ati hotkey poller enabled if that's what you're referring to. ati smart is for agp...? i'm using a pci-e x1900xt.
Ati smart is for both agp and pci-e its another one of ati's services, it should be enabled anyway
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Old Sep 28, 2006, 06:49 PM   #7
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yeah ati smart is enabled but not running, just as on my agp system.
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Old Sep 28, 2006, 06:58 PM   #8
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I wonder where he figured out where to do that..
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Old Sep 28, 2006, 07:18 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
I wonder where he figured out where to do that..
Well wizzard with ati tools couldnt figure it out....

Perhaps he ermm haxord the ati clocker
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Old Sep 29, 2006, 01:05 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilsouth View Post
Well wizzard with ati tools couldnt figure it out....

Perhaps he ermm haxord the ati clocker
Wrong. W1zzard already used driver-level o/c a few months ago in one of betas of ATITool but dropped an idea of it due to
1) Its automatic timing relaxing mechanism
2) Bigger clock adjustment step
3) Limited voltage adjustment possibilities (Overdrive's voltage adjustment range is limited to BIOS-defined voltage adjustment ranges, which are different and seriously limited in some BIOSes).

I'd say what Ray haxored again, but I'm afraid that he'll again cry that I'm calling him thief with no reason.
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Old Sep 29, 2006, 03:16 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Unwinder View Post
I'd say what Ray haxored again, but I'm afraid that he'll again cry that I'm calling him thief with no reason.
I guess you dont like Ray
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Old Sep 29, 2006, 03:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilsouth View Post
I guess you dont like Ray
would you like a person that constantly takes your work and sells it as their own ideas?
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Old Sep 29, 2006, 05:00 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilsouth View Post
I guess you dont like Ray
Don't get me wrong. Not him personally, his actions. I don't like any competitors refusing to work with their own brains, developing the tools just to collect donations and sell it to vendors, cloning and stealing ideas of the same developers like them, bringing and selling stolen ideas as their own unique ones with no references to the source. Then telling people in the forums about half year of hard work on new version and asking them to donate them some money for it to compensate time invested in "development".
For example, do you know that you simply won't see ATT with X1K support without RaBiT developer, which simply spared Ray, believed in his emails with “nobody helps me and I cannot overclock R5xxx myself, gimme the code”, assisted him a LOT, gave him all X1K overclocking routines? Do you see at least one thanks to that man in ReadMe? At least one note about it in the release notes? Of course no, this way he won't be able to tell brave stories about his "hard work on X1K overclocking" in the forums and there will be much less donations collected. I could understand when Ray simply removed me from his project contributors list, he perfectly knows himself that he is stealing, he know that I know it too and hate his stealing, so it was pretty expectable for me. But I simply don't understand when he is constantly doing the same with other developers, which helped him not a few years ago like me, which helped him just a few days ago and without whom his project simply won’t exist. I have one short name for it - stealing and dirty competition.
Happily there were and there are many respectable developers being the projects like Everest, ATITool, PowerStrip, RaBiT, aTuner, GTU, which act drastically differently and put a lot of efforts to bring some really new feature set to users. And I do like such people. If Ray will drop his way of developing his tool one day and become such developer too - I'll be pretty happy. But I’m afraid that it will never happen. Some develop tools to have a fun and to bring users something new, others – to make name and money on work of others.
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Old Sep 29, 2006, 06:23 AM   #14
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Sorry guys i didnt know, please accept my appologies
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Old Sep 30, 2006, 04:12 AM   #15
Ray Adams
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May be enough with such stupid posts? No one helped me with code! Even author of Rabit just pointed me to the right direction. All I done for overclocking x1xxx I done by myself. Including new version of overclocking on driver level. I have no idea how Wizzard do it, but I do it by my own procedures!

And yes, your name was removed from readme because of your post all over the world!!!
You call me thief on any public forums. Do you think is this good way to kill ATT? A few month ago I've stopped trying to understand you because its impossible.

And what I see now??? Again same paranoid post about steeling everything from everyone.
These is your words:

Some develop tools to have a fun and to bring users something new, others – to make name and money on work of others
May be you never received money for RivaTuner??? Tell to everyone how much your already earned on your utils! I never asked to give me money from anyone! I do it for people not for money!
So lets stop this stupid discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unwinder View Post
Don't get me wrong. Not him personally, his actions. I don't like any competitors refusing to work with their own brains, developing the tools just to collect donations and sell it to vendors, cloning and stealing ideas of the same developers like them, bringing and selling stolen ideas as their own unique ones with no references to the source. Then telling people in the forums about half year of hard work on new version and asking them to donate them some money for it to compensate time invested in "development".
For example, do you know that you simply won't see ATT with X1K support without RaBiT developer, which simply spared Ray, believed in his emails with “nobody helps me and I cannot overclock R5xxx myself, gimme the code”, assisted him a LOT, gave him all X1K overclocking routines? Do you see at least one thanks to that man in ReadMe? At least one note about it in the release notes? Of course no, this way he won't be able to tell brave stories about his "hard work on X1K overclocking" in the forums and there will be much less donations collected. I could understand when Ray simply removed me from his project contributors list, he perfectly knows himself that he is stealing, he know that I know it too and hate his stealing, so it was pretty expectable for me. But I simply don't understand when he is constantly doing the same with other developers, which helped him not a few years ago like me, which helped him just a few days ago and without whom his project simply won’t exist. I have one short name for it - stealing and dirty competition.
Happily there were and there are many respectable developers being the projects like Everest, ATITool, PowerStrip, RaBiT, aTuner, GTU, which act drastically differently and put a lot of efforts to bring some really new feature set to users. And I do like such people. If Ray will drop his way of developing his tool one day and become such developer too - I'll be pretty happy. But I’m afraid that it will never happen. Some develop tools to have a fun and to bring users something new, others – to make name and money on work of others.
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Old Sep 30, 2006, 02:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Adams View Post
I never asked to give me money from anyone! I do it for people not for money!
And I Thank You Mr. Adam's for sharing your hard work with the ATI community for free!

ATI Tray Tools is the only OC'ing utility that does not cause my PC to lock-up ( I've tried both Rivatuner and ATI Tool, both of which cause lock-up on my PC ), plus it does so much more then allow OC'ing! ATI Tray Tools gives me complete control of my X1900XTX. It works perfectly for me . And no more CCC or NET, what a great bonus!

You the Man Ray . Thank You!

Sincerely.....
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Old Oct 1, 2006, 01:19 PM   #17
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Sigh.....i really don't know what to say....

Unwinder has helped me -greatly- over the years, heck, he even helped remove w-buffer artifacts from UT'99 once, and without ATT, which along with Rivatuner, are two of the most helpful programs I've ever used (Ray adding flip queue size is as important as bread and water), I would be using Nvidia hardware right now. And Unwinder recently stopped me from frying my X1950xtx video card due to a bug in winclk that i never knew about. And Ray has also been very helpful with what I thought were bugs in ATT which instead were my stubborness to stick to old 'control panel' mode...

And ATT is the nicest tool I've ever used on ATI hardware....it completely puts even the original control panel to shame. And CCC? What's CCC? No need CCC with ATT (thanks, Ray).

I really don't know how everything started... the tweaking community would be so much better if everyone could just be friends and help each other out instead of driving a shaft through it...but I really can't say more. We have some VERY talented people around here. None of you know how much some of these authors have helped me. It would be a tragic loss if people quit helping enthuiasts because of issues like this.

(think back to the USENET fiascos of the late 1990's...aka Action/Flight Sim/Space sim newsgroups), although that was mainly disrespectful users vs the programmers...and which in part caused the near collapse of the flight sim genre....oh and Gary Triolli (sp?) leaving the 3dfx newsgroups wasn't exactly making things better either....)

I'm as much responsible as anyone for all of this anyway....if I hadn't started whining about triple buffering stuff (not being able to use triplebuffering through Dxtweaker when using a front end like All Seeing Eye and Gamespy arcade, none of this would have ever happened...)

I should have just shut my big mouth....

Oh and both unwinder and the dxtweaker author also helped me find out that anti virus programs are GREAT at stopping stuff from working properly...(Kaspersky 4.5 completely stopped dxtweaker from even launching games...)
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Old Oct 1, 2006, 03:38 PM   #18
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I hate it when friends of mine all fight, and I like/admire all three major players in this one.

Unwinder, Ray, and W1zzard have all helped me out a lot whether they know it or not, their tools/advice has.

Can we just settle this with a bloody fist fight or something and move on? I don't want y'all distracted from the more important task of putting out cool tools for me to play with my toys with.
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Old Oct 2, 2006, 01:15 AM   #19
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digitalwanderer, Falkentyne

Guys, I dislike this discussion too and hate wasting time and nerves on it. But unfortunately I see no other way to stop this copy-pasting hell, which already continues during last 2 years and was started with Ray’s help. Nobody of freeware tool developers ever needed to protect the code against others. Nobody was ever forced to modify license agreement and explicitly deny someone to steal from his project. Nobody ever was smart enough to come to idea of selling the things, done _for_free_ by the same people like him. Nobody until Ray has came. Do you want to see for example ATITool, DXTweaker or any other freeware projects closed one day due to this reason? I absolutely don’t. And this can easily happen, if it won’t stop.

Ray Adams

Quote:
May be enough with such stupid posts?
It will be enough when you’ll stop doing the things you do. You don’t want to understand private discussions, give the promises that you won’t do it anymore then continue doing the same again, again and again. I’m extremely tired of seeing how you’re pickpocketing freeware products of my friends, ask other developers to do some job instead of you because of your laziness then completely deny it on public, then your fans in the forums are bashing the products you’ve taken a lot from and you’re happily looking at it and telling noobs the stories about your hard work. I see no other ways to stop that. If you refuse to understand even the simplest moral things and money is the only thing that can make you thinking – not a problem, I’ll use the language of money to stop you. So such posts won’t disappear and will appear in different places, forums and even news more and more frequently. You’re cornering yourself, so don’t be surprised. Think about it, you’ve got your warning.

Quote:
No one helped me with code! Even author of Rabit just pointed me to the right direction.
You perfectly know that you lie, Ray. You’ve even seen comments of Jaz (RaBiT developer) on it in the forum. And you’re not so unprofessional to call porting script source code he gave you to C++ “pointing you to the right direction”.

Quote:
All I done for overclocking x1xxx I done by myself.
Sure. Jaz didn’t supplied you PLL programming code, you’ve not cracked RivaTuner and have not used its’ hidden BIOS analyzer tool to study memory controller restart algorithms, you’ve not spammed Jaz with questions about these algorithms because you was not even smart enough to understand BIOS code. Everything is done by Ray himself as usual. Let me say that it is not true, tell this story to someone else, not me.

Quote:
And yes, your name was removed from readme because of your post all over the world!!!
Not a problem, that’s exactly what I’ve expected from you knowing your habits. Let’s assume that you’ve never taken anything from RivaTuner and I’m just a paranoid like you’re saying, which is simply telling bad things about good Ray with no reason. Then may I ask why all the notes about Jaz are also removed from readme too? My bad, I’ve just forgot that he’ve not helped you at all and you did your hard X1000 overclocking way yourself…
And what about W1zzard? ATITool’s artifact testing and automated overclocking ideas, unique 2D/3D profiles which you’ve simply taken from his project also absolutely don’t deserve being mentioned in readme? Is it also result of your hard work and you’ve never heard about W1zzard? Then can you explain me why MVDDC to VID voltage mapping table from your last release is so different comparing to ATI’s generic one and one by one match with ATITool’s one (which is done by W1zzards basing upon his real voltage measurements, and cannot be found ANYWHERE else). Still say that you’ve never seen ATITool and never peeked inside it? And what about DXTweaker and its’ creator? Is there at least a single note or thanks to him anywhere for his original triple buffering concepts? Of course no, average ATITrayTools fanatic never heard about DXTweaker and pretty sure that it is result of Rays hard work.
Don’t you think that is a bit stupid (if not say more) to take something without being allowed to do that, to be called a thief for that, then to say “Why do I mention that I’ve taken it, if they call me a thief”? Why can’t you simply work yourself like others?

Quote:
You call me thief on any public forums. Do you think is this good way to kill ATT? A few month ago I've stopped trying to understand you because its impossible.
Then just don’t act like a thief – that’s simple as ABC. Nobody is going to kill ATT, couple years ago I was pretty happy to see new tool and new developer on the scene and was glad to assist developing it in the beginning of its’ lifetime until I saw what type of developer are you. And I‘ll be happy if the project will continue living due to your own ideas. Try to guess why nobody try to “kill” PowerStrip (which exists on the market much longer than your tool)? ATITool? RaBiT? Everest? Why nobody closes the door in front of authors of these software projects? Probably because they are simply act a bit different and respect work of other developers? Probably because they are not used to steal from each other? Why these developers CAN coexist and you CANNOT?
If you’re talking about stopping understanding me, other developers stopped understanding you too a few _years_ ago when you started you bad practice of cloning. But tolerated you some time in hope that you’ll grow up one day. You’ve been forgiven for that a few times and I closed eyes on it, but the patience is over.

Quote:
And what I see now??? Again same paranoid post about steeling everything from everyone.
You see the result of your own actions. That’s not paranoia. That’s the facts. The facts from multiple independent developers, which are tired of catching you on stealing something from their own products. Nobody wishes to invest a few years in development of freeware tool to allow other lazybone to copy it completely, put his copyrights on it and collect donations this way. If you’re not brave enough to say “I’m sorry” to everybody you’ve pirated, stop doing that and to start working with your own head at last – it is not our problem, just don’t talk about paranoia and stupid posts when you face the results of your actions. You’re already big boy and should know that such things always become public one day. You day have came.

Quote:
These is your words:
Some develop tools to have a fun and to bring users something new, others - to make name and money on work of others.
May be you never received money for RivaTuner??? Tell to everyone how much your already earned on your utils!
Don’t tell me that you don’t know it. You were experienced RivaTuner user during a few years in the past until you got ATI card and decided to make you own tool based on the concepts you’ve seen on NVIDIA tools scene. So you perfectly know that I’ve never received even a single cent for RT from users. During almost 9 years of RivaTuner’s lifetime, since 1998 when the project was started, I’ve not accepted even a single monetary donation (which were offered by users many times, btw) for this project. There was only one payment from a website, which wanted to put their “sponsored by” logo in the utility about five years ago. And the part of that money was donated to enthusiasts from Russian website, where the tool was hosted. And your NVIDIA BIOS editor tool was also hosted at that website and you spent a lot of time there in the forum, so please don’t tell that you didn’t know it too. That’s all. If it was a question of money, I could make hellish figure on donations during R9500 or 6800 softmodding booms, I could simply freeze the project as NVIDIA wanted and get good paid job there or at ATI. But I started and continue developing project the project not for that, that’s a hobby and good school for training developer’s skills – not a job and not a business. The same applies to ATITool for example, try to donate him money, most likely you’ll read something like this:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...20&postcount=8

And rest developers deeply respect him for that. Don’t you see anything different comparing to your “wow, if I’ll clone ATITool, I can collect donations on it and sell it to vendors” story?

Quote:
I never asked to give me money from anyone! I do it for people not for money!
You may tell this fable to your hardcore fans with “You da man, the rest sux” logic, but not to developers who know you for many years and see your progress from zero skill developer till aged clonemaker. I’m afraid that I more than clearly see the reasons of your actions. Developers doing the project for people don’t start the development from creating “Donate” button , don’t hide info about the people contributed the project development, don’t start from pirating competing software and completely copying their feature sets, don’t present cloned as their own ones and definitively don’t bash these products in the forums in the same time.
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Old Oct 2, 2006, 01:57 AM   #20
Ray Adams
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I don't want to continue discussion on public forums. If you have something ti say, you know my email or you can send PM.
I've got your opinion and thats enought for me.
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Old Oct 2, 2006, 02:28 AM   #21
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......And once again we see the wrath of Unwinder.

At least I'm not on the losing end of it this time

@Alexy......pop into b3d more often.
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Old Oct 2, 2006, 03:16 AM   #22
Ray Adams
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I think this topic can be closed or even removed from this board (if Unwinder want it, if not lets it will be here).
I just don't want to write again and again trying to prove that I do it on my own, not by stealing codes from other!
And even I will give no answer on this:
Quote:
Then can you explain me why MVDDC to VID voltage mapping table from your last release is so different comparing to ATI’s generic one and one by one match with ATITool’s one
Because if you compare GPOU voltages it will be different, and in second. What makes you thing, that I used code from ATITool??? I used 1xOverclocker to set voltages and then read values from sensor. Next step is just simply mathematic. Anyone will be able to understand how voltage will be calculated if you have series of IDs and voltages.
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Old Oct 2, 2006, 05:10 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Adams View Post
Because if you compare GPOU voltages it will be different, and in second. What makes you thing, that I used code from ATITool??? I used 1xOverclocker to set voltages and then read values from sensor. Next step is just simply mathematic. Anyone will be able to understand how voltage will be calculated if you have series of IDs and voltages.
so you say.. but as you probably should know current generation cards do not have the sensors to read these voltages
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Old Oct 2, 2006, 10:10 AM   #24
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I don't see any reason for this thread to be closed/removed/locked, and this seems like a great place to talk it out where everyone can see/hear/read it.

Heck, even I'm almost able to follow along on the technical end so far. (Quit laughing, I did say "almost". )

BTW-W1zzard- I didn't get your last comment, how would that affect it? (If you don't mind taking a second to explain it that is. )
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Old Oct 2, 2006, 10:18 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalwanderer View Post
I don't see any reason for this thread to be closed/removed/locked, and this seems like a great place to talk it out where everyone can see/hear/read it.

Heck, even I'm almost able to follow along on the technical end so far. (Quit laughing, I did say "almost". )

BTW-W1zzard- I didn't get your last comment, how would that affect it? (If you don't mind taking a second to explain it that is. )
ok .. he says he used overclocker to set a voltage, then looked at the sensor readings to figure out the formula.. problem: there are no sensor readings, you can't monitor those voltages. there is no circuitry on the pcb to do that
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Old Oct 2, 2006, 10:27 AM   #26
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Thank you.

Not trying to be disrespectful, but rather to play the devil's advocate; could he have read the voltages using a good old fashioned voltometer? Or is that too silly to contemplate? (I really don't know.)
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Old Oct 2, 2006, 10:47 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Adams View Post
then read values from sensor.
according to his post he didnt
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Old Oct 2, 2006, 11:12 AM   #28
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Good point, thanks for noticing that and pointing it out to me.
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Old Oct 2, 2006, 12:42 PM   #29
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What have you done to my thread
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Old Oct 3, 2006, 03:57 PM   #30
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Quote:
What have you done to my thread
My thoughts exactly Neil. I've seen forum peeps through around the STFU and name-calling stuff but it's pretty much anonymous. This one's dealing with reputations and people may end making judgements based on "he said-she said" stuff. It's just gotten way too personal - I suggest that this thread be deleted.

Last edited by Chiles4 : Oct 3, 2006 at 04:00 PM.
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