Proof of dumbing down of games

Destroy · Aug 4, 2006, 05:42 PM

This is a developer post about FlatOut2...even he doesn't like the game he created, ha.
http://forum.empireinteractive.com/d...=31&PN=1&TPN=0

"You are right that it's mostly the steering that prevents you from doing powerslides. The physics hasn't actually changed that much since I think February, when we had a really great handling IMO, at least for a few tuned cars. At one stage, I could drive lap after lap, and smile. It still wasn't realistic, there was way too much grip, and the cars had a very forgiving tire model. But all the helpers were taken away. And it handled far better than FlatOut 1.

Most people couldn't drive it though, allthough they learned to be decent, after just 10 laps or so. But then you add the AI, and it became way too hard for the target group. Also according to some it was too different from other games, like NFS and Burnout. Additionally the games suspension system/settings, are quite bad for most cars, so jumps would throw you around way too easilly, jumps are still bad, but at least most of the jumps can be controlled now. That's why it got changed, first to a very bad version, and I said it many times, that I would never buy a game that handles like this. Then after that the handling got a bit better, to the current model. I still don't like driving our game, only the online part gives some sort of satisfication, pure driving isn't an enjoyment for me.

In the current version, the steering angle is limited by speed, allthough already at 20 km/h it's limited to a maximum of 20 degrees steering on outside wheel. At higer speed this limit goes down to 10 degrees of maximum steering, that's less than the optimal slip angle of the tires. This means that you get a very artificial understeer, that is limited by steering angle, and not by available grip. For me this kind of understeer is hard to predict. It doesn't help to load the front wheels by braking for example, neither is it possible to turn over the limit to introduce a powerslide. And if you slow down, the understeer only reduces linarilly, less speed means more steering angle, in a linear fashion. Normally, you would get the grip, by slowing down much less.

These limits also means that there's not a single corner in the game that understeers because of lack of grip. It's all about not giving you enough steering.

The other problem is the slugginesh of the steering. You have probably noticed, that you see an obstacle on the road, you try to steer one second before, and the car doesn't seem to react a single bit to your input. This effect comes directly from the helpers. If the steering angles were higher, then this would mean that you can get the car into a power slide easilly, but once you get it sliding, there's no way to get out of the slide. Most people that tried the game were not that bothered with this effect, even when the angles were not as limited as they are now. However I could see a common mistake that they all did, they turned too much, crashing on the inside of the corner. This happened for me too, with the helpers off. Yes, it was possible to learn to drive with them, but I was never able to go for 100% and feel comfortable with the car and what it would do next.

I know there's quite a few of us here at Bugbear that doesn't like the current handling, and would have wanted a much more realistic mode. The suggestions that we should do a double model, like FlatOut 1 didn't make it into the final game for one reason or another. Maybe because the pro mode wasn't popular in FlatOut 1, but that's because the pro mode didn't work very well, there was still helpers distracting you, and a few other major flaws that that made the easy mode much more fun.

I would really like to give you the handling that we once, had. But unfortunately I can't. First I'm not the one to decide about that, and we haven't had any discussions about it. The second problem is that it would make fair online gaming impossible. So, some kind of checking would need to be added."

bigtabs · Aug 4, 2006, 05:55 PM

Ha! I also bought this game after loving Flatout 1 and after owning it a day I went to their forums complaining of the handling. It's nice to seea dev being honest about it and agreeing with the criticisms we have. I do hope they add a 'pro' mode in a future patch. That would rock.

Adanu · Aug 4, 2006, 06:32 PM

You need proof that games are being dumbed down?

Vorpal · Aug 4, 2006, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brynn

You need proof that games are being dumbed down?

OMG comment of the month. If I had a cigarette lighter I'd be holding it up in the air right now. Bravo!

sittal · Aug 4, 2006, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brynn

You need proof that games are being dumbed down?

QFT

The ULTIMATE proof was star wars galaxies. im still pissed, even a year later

Nico73 · Aug 4, 2006, 08:39 PM

What about Windows' Solitaire: all dumbed down with the option to draw only one card at a time.

Just kidding.

Interesting stuff to read. Thanks. I was interested in FO2, but I have to admit, I'm not so sure, now. I liked the advanced controls in the first one...

Nagorak · Aug 4, 2006, 08:41 PM

Wonder if that guy will keep his job. Seems like honest people usually don't last too long, unfortunately.

Dizoja86 · Aug 4, 2006, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brynn

You need proof that games are being dumbed down?

Yeah, really. Every fps in the past 3 years should've been proof of that.

There's lots of good stuff out there still though. Civ4, simcity 4, other strategy games that deal with more than just "build a base, build 10,000 units, circle them, attack." and even games like bf2 (if played with the right people) can be a good experiance that requires some brain power. Lots of brain bending stuff for the consoles as well that would cause the people who thought hl2 was actually in intelligent game to hang themselves by their ide cables

sMashPiranha · Aug 4, 2006, 11:05 PM

I haven't played this game yet, but I always use a wheel in racing games. Helpers have to be off to race effectively with a wheel. So I haven't got high expectations for playing this game with a wheel. Damn keyboard racers

SubCog · Aug 5, 2006, 01:09 AM

doods, cruisin' usa is the most realistic driving simulation of all time.

MadMartigan · Aug 5, 2006, 01:09 AM

I wish they would make Rally Trophy 2, that game fricking rocked

soylent · Aug 5, 2006, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nagorak

Wonder if that guy will keep his job. Seems like honest people usually don't last too long, unfortunately.

The people they are dumbing down the game for most likely will never hear his comments.

**Pr()ZaC** · Aug 6, 2006, 09:10 AM

Whoa, Black Betty...

daPhoenix · Aug 6, 2006, 09:27 AM

The Japanese knew this long time ago: They made the early Mario games easier for the US crowd because they didn't think people were good enough to play them

Chubz · Aug 6, 2006, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brynn

You need proof that games are being dumbed down?

QFMFT!

g-a-m-e · Aug 6, 2006, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daPhoenix

The Japanese knew this long time ago: They made the early Mario games easier for the US crowd because they didn't think people were good enough to play them

Really ?

where did you hear that ?

daPhoenix · Aug 6, 2006, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g-a-m-e

where did you hear that ?

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl...6/07/20/047226

http://nintendo.about.com/library/ma...fferences1.htm

FearTheTerp · Aug 6, 2006, 10:50 AM

If I wanted to think and strategize really I would choose a different hobby. School already screws me over I need some relief at times. I do enough studying in my own time.

Ghost_™ · Aug 6, 2006, 12:16 PM

The dumber the game the more people it's "available" too.... sadly...

Rambozo · Aug 6, 2006, 01:02 PM

Armed Assault.

I still play Flashpoint. It is unfortunate how unpopular these games are though. Nearly nobody plays Flashpoint on the Xbox, and it is an incredible game. I can't imagine flashpoint for the xbox as being better. I was surprised at how much was crammed into it. Even the graphics are impressive. Such expansive environments, all the PC content, and still the game uses normal mapping and the models all cast and recieve shadows, depth of field effects, and nice lighting. And the controls are about perfect considering it is a console. The whole game is there, and not a bit of dumbing down. It is everything the PC version was and more, yet nobody plays it.

People don't want good games. Edit: People don't want realistic games.

TenFour · Aug 6, 2006, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nico73

What about Windows' Solitaire: all dumbed down

On Gamespot, they said the Vista version will allow undos on anything!!!

Darkz0r · Aug 7, 2006, 12:31 AM

Rofl.
Its all about the $. x.x

SlamDunk · Aug 7, 2006, 05:01 AM

But... you NEED to dumb down games. Otherwise the poor lazy whiners who just can't figure out the controls in Gothic 1 & 2 might burst in tears. We must protect them, at all costs!

metroidfox · Aug 7, 2006, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nico73

What about Windows' Solitaire: all dumbed down with the option to draw only one card at a time.

Just kidding.

Interesting stuff to read. Thanks. I was interested in FO2, but I have to admit, I'm not so sure, now. I liked the advanced controls in the first one...

That makes it harder, not easier.

EDIT: one problem I have with more realistic games is their lack of presentation. Fix that and make more realistic titles and I'll be happy. I want the games to have difficult mechanics, not the main menu.

s p i k e r · Aug 7, 2006, 09:37 AM

All the games that I've been playing lately have been dumbed down. I remember when games were actually a big challenge and now... meh - I don't have to explain because you all know what I mean.

phial · Aug 7, 2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubCog

doods, cruisin' usa is the most realistic driving simulation of all time.

hah..... what steaming pile of feces

Nico73 · Aug 7, 2006, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metroidfox

That [drawing one card at a time] makes it [solitaire] harder, not easier.

Well, either Solitaire's messing with my head, or you are.

But I only play Solitaire for its challenging and advanced A.I. and random mission generator (F2).

_TiTaNiuM · Aug 7, 2006, 12:45 PM

Yeah, how many of these threads a month are really necessary?

Big deal, get used to it.

acidosmosis · Aug 7, 2006, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sittal

QFT

The ULTIMATE proof was star wars galaxies. im still pissed, even a year later

You are right on the money there pal. I swear that has to be the ultimate example.

I'm still mad too.

sittal · Aug 8, 2006, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidosmosis

You are right on the money there pal. I swear that has to be the ultimate example.

I'm still mad too.

hardest game i ever played a few months after i got good at it it changed. i was god in that game.. now look at me! some asshat getting podded in EVE

Aug 4, 2006, 05:42 PM	#1	Advertisement (Guests Only) Login or Register to remove this ad
Destroy Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: WI Posts: 9,753	Proof of dumbing down of games This is a developer post about FlatOut2...even he doesn't like the game he created, ha. http://forum.empireinteractive.com/d...=31&PN=1&TPN=0 "You are right that it's mostly the steering that prevents you from doing powerslides. The physics hasn't actually changed that much since I think February, when we had a really great handling IMO, at least for a few tuned cars. At one stage, I could drive lap after lap, and smile. It still wasn't realistic, there was way too much grip, and the cars had a very forgiving tire model. But all the helpers were taken away. And it handled far better than FlatOut 1. Most people couldn't drive it though, allthough they learned to be decent, after just 10 laps or so. But then you add the AI, and it became way too hard for the target group. Also according to some it was too different from other games, like NFS and Burnout. Additionally the games suspension system/settings, are quite bad for most cars, so jumps would throw you around way too easilly, jumps are still bad, but at least most of the jumps can be controlled now. That's why it got changed, first to a very bad version, and I said it many times, that I would never buy a game that handles like this. Then after that the handling got a bit better, to the current model. I still don't like driving our game, only the online part gives some sort of satisfication, pure driving isn't an enjoyment for me. In the current version, the steering angle is limited by speed, allthough already at 20 km/h it's limited to a maximum of 20 degrees steering on outside wheel. At higer speed this limit goes down to 10 degrees of maximum steering, that's less than the optimal slip angle of the tires. This means that you get a very artificial understeer, that is limited by steering angle, and not by available grip. For me this kind of understeer is hard to predict. It doesn't help to load the front wheels by braking for example, neither is it possible to turn over the limit to introduce a powerslide. And if you slow down, the understeer only reduces linarilly, less speed means more steering angle, in a linear fashion. Normally, you would get the grip, by slowing down much less. These limits also means that there's not a single corner in the game that understeers because of lack of grip. It's all about not giving you enough steering. The other problem is the slugginesh of the steering. You have probably noticed, that you see an obstacle on the road, you try to steer one second before, and the car doesn't seem to react a single bit to your input. This effect comes directly from the helpers. If the steering angles were higher, then this would mean that you can get the car into a power slide easilly, but once you get it sliding, there's no way to get out of the slide. Most people that tried the game were not that bothered with this effect, even when the angles were not as limited as they are now. However I could see a common mistake that they all did, they turned too much, crashing on the inside of the corner. This happened for me too, with the helpers off. Yes, it was possible to learn to drive with them, but I was never able to go for 100% and feel comfortable with the car and what it would do next. I know there's quite a few of us here at Bugbear that doesn't like the current handling, and would have wanted a much more realistic mode. The suggestions that we should do a double model, like FlatOut 1 didn't make it into the final game for one reason or another. Maybe because the pro mode wasn't popular in FlatOut 1, but that's because the pro mode didn't work very well, there was still helpers distracting you, and a few other major flaws that that made the easy mode much more fun. I would really like to give you the handling that we once, had. But unfortunately I can't. First I'm not the one to decide about that, and we haven't had any discussions about it. The second problem is that it would make fair online gaming impossible. So, some kind of checking would need to be added." __________________ Member of the Glorious PC Gaming Master Race-"Doesn't any game maker know how to make a PC feeling game anymore? I hate all this console afterbirth crap we're getting lately."

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Aug 4, 2006, 05:55 PM	#2
bigtabs is a happy chappy Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Lincoln, England Posts: 2,549	Ha! I also bought this game after loving Flatout 1 and after owning it a day I went to their forums complaining of the handling. It's nice to seea dev being honest about it and agreeing with the criticisms we have. I do hope they add a 'pro' mode in a future patch. That would rock. __________________ This is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules. Last edited by bigtabs : Aug 4, 2006 at 06:02 PM.

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Aug 4, 2006, 08:39 PM	#6
Nico73 Meow Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 294	What about Windows' Solitaire: all dumbed down with the option to draw only one card at a time. Just kidding. Interesting stuff to read. Thanks. I was interested in FO2, but I have to admit, I'm not so sure, now. I liked the advanced controls in the first one...

Aug 4, 2006, 08:41 PM	#7
Nagorak Incarnation of the Nether Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Amanackia Posts: 6,640	Wonder if that guy will keep his job. Seems like honest people usually don't last too long, unfortunately.

Aug 4, 2006, 11:05 PM	#9
sMashPiranha boom shanka Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New Zealand Posts: 3,189	I haven't played this game yet, but I always use a wheel in racing games. Helpers have to be off to race effectively with a wheel. So I haven't got high expectations for playing this game with a wheel. Damn keyboard racers

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Aug 5, 2006, 01:09 AM	#11
MadMartigan Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 2,434	I wish they would make Rally Trophy 2, that game fricking rocked __________________ reasons why it's worth to be a PCgamer in --- A Tree falls; a page arises. A scarab is captured; ink is released. Life is taken; and Age is given D`ni

Aug 6, 2006, 09:27 AM	#14
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Aug 6, 2006, 10:50 AM	#18
FearTheTerp Dont worry, be happy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pacific Grove, CA Posts: 715	If I wanted to think and strategize really I would choose a different hobby. School already screws me over I need some relief at times. I do enough studying in my own time. __________________ WinXP Pro Motherboard:ECS PT890T-A Cpu:Intel Core 2 Duo e6600 Memory:Corsair TWIN2x2048-5400 Graphics Card: eVGA 8600GT Antec Neo HE 550 Dell XPS 1530 2.2 T7500 Core 2 Duo Ocz 4GB PC5400 8600m GT 256mb

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Aug 6, 2006, 12:16 PM	#19
Ghost_™ Exit 2006, Novi Sad Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,569	The dumber the game the more people it's "available" too.... sadly...

Aug 6, 2006, 01:02 PM	#20
Rambozo Commando Farce Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: North Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 4,258	Armed Assault. I still play Flashpoint. It is unfortunate how unpopular these games are though. Nearly nobody plays Flashpoint on the Xbox, and it is an incredible game. I can't imagine flashpoint for the xbox as being better. I was surprised at how much was crammed into it. Even the graphics are impressive. Such expansive environments, all the PC content, and still the game uses normal mapping and the models all cast and recieve shadows, depth of field effects, and nice lighting. And the controls are about perfect considering it is a console. The whole game is there, and not a bit of dumbing down. It is everything the PC version was and more, yet nobody plays it. People don't want good games. Edit: People don't want realistic games. __________________ "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" Not my fault, I voted Ron Paul. Not my fault, I voted Badnarik. Last edited by Rambozo : Aug 6, 2006 at 01:08 PM.

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Aug 7, 2006, 12:31 AM	#22
Darkz0r Brazilian Pimp ;o Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Brazil Posts: 1,336	Rofl. Its all about the $. x.x __________________ The Fable YMCA dance ! \|\| My BF2 stats \|\| My oblivion fix for max carrying capacity \|\| Switch Boycott Starforce (It hurts the eyes !): http://www.glop.org/starforce/

Aug 7, 2006, 05:01 AM	#23
SlamDunk GeForce 7950 GT Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 931	But... you NEED to dumb down games. Otherwise the poor lazy whiners who just can't figure out the controls in Gothic 1 & 2 might burst in tears. We must protect them, at all costs!

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Aug 7, 2006, 09:37 AM	#25
s p i k e r NYCr0x Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New York Posts: 185	All the games that I've been playing lately have been dumbed down. I remember when games were actually a big challenge and now... meh - I don't have to explain because you all know what I mean. __________________ Gaming Rig Cpu: AMD64 3800 X2+ @ 2.5ghz (blue orb2 fan) -\|- Mobo: DualSataII(AsRock) -\|- Ram: (2x1gb Patriot) -\|- HD: 160 gig hd seagate (SATA) -\|- VideoCard: Geforce 9800 GTX 512 -\|- Sound: Soundblaster Audigy SE -\|- Optical: Lite-on DVD RW/CD RW -\|- CD-Rom -\|- MGE Vigor GE 500 Watt PSU Old video cards: ATi Rage 128 Xpress 98 (4MB), Radeon 64 mb, Radeon 8500, Radeon 9000 Pro Radeon 9600 XT, Geforce FX 52000, Geforce 4 MX420, Geforce 3 Ti200. SiS720 1 mb vid card, Geforce 6800 GT, Geforce 8800, Radeon 1900 Xt

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Aug 7, 2006, 12:45 PM	#28
_TiTaNiuM Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Youngstown, Ohio Posts: 10,956	Yeah, how many of these threads a month are really necessary? Big deal, get used to it.

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Motherboard	ASUS
CPU	AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+
Graphics	BFG Nvidia Geforce 8800GT OC
Memory	2GB
Cooling Solution	Stock AMD
Display	Viewsonic 19" LCD
Soundcard & Speakers	Onboard/Logitech 5.1
Hard-Drives	3.0GB/s SATA 250GB
Optical Drives	16X DVDRW
Power Supply	CORSAIR CMPSU-450VX ATX12V/V2.2 450W
Case	Antec Plusview 1000AMG
Operating System	XP
Extra Info	120mm bracket fan/80mm PCI fan

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