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Old Nov 18, 2005, 12:48 AM   #1
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Xessive
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ATI Technologies Classic OpenGL Games & Catalyst

I am so disappointed in ATI. They've reached Catalalyst 5.11 and they still haven't fixed the problem which arose with Catalyst 4.12. If you haven't read up on it (or any of my previous complaints) basically it primarily affected older OpenGL based games such as Quake 2, Heretic 2, Anachronox, and many others (all Quake 2 engine games).

With 4.11 the average framerate I got was anywhere between 80-90 fps. With 4.12 all the way to 5.11 the framerate dropped to approximately 25-30 fps. The decrease in performance is most visible with any glow or fullscreen effect. So far ATI tech support have failed to explain or remedy the issue.

The only workaround I've figured out so far is to install the 4.11 drivers, make a copy of the atioglxx.dll file, uninstall 4.11 and install whatever driver you want (i.e. 5.11), and then replace the atioglxx.dll with the 4.11 version. That definitely fixes the issue, but there's always the concern of fixes available in the later versions.

Anyway, I just wanted to vent, voice my opinion, and see if I can relate to anyone else who may have experienced the issue.
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Old Nov 18, 2005, 01:26 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xessive
I am so disappointed in ATI. They've reached Catalalyst 5.11 and they still haven't fixed the problem which arose with Catalyst 4.12. If you haven't read up on it (or any of my previous complaints) basically it primarily affected older OpenGL based games such as Quake 2, Heretic 2, Anachronox, and many others (all Quake 2 engine games).

With 4.11 the average framerate I got was anywhere between 80-90 fps. With 4.12 all the way to 5.11 the framerate dropped to approximately 25-30 fps. The decrease in performance is most visible with any glow or fullscreen effect. So far ATI tech support have failed to explain or remedy the issue.

The only workaround I've figured out so far is to install the 4.11 drivers, make a copy of the atioglxx.dll file, uninstall 4.11 and install whatever driver you want (i.e. 5.11), and then replace the atioglxx.dll with the 4.11 version. That definitely fixes the issue, but there's always the concern of fixes available in the later versions.

Anyway, I just wanted to vent, voice my opinion, and see if I can relate to anyone else who may have experienced the issue.
It would help if you told us what card you have....

And try the following:
Take the file atioglx1.dll, rename it to atioglxx.dll and put it into the game folder. You MIGHT also have to try simply putting atioglx1.dll in the game folder without renaming.

Does that fix the problem?
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Old Nov 18, 2005, 09:54 PM   #3
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I have a Radeon 9600 Pro 128MB. I've tried putting the atioglx1.dll file in the Quake 2 directory (where the 3dfxgl.dll file is traditionally located). Ive tried renaming it as well, no luck. Apparently it HAS to be the one in the system32.

Thanks for the help though. I just went back to the 4.11 OpenGL driver. I'ms till amazed at how much better it is.

I did a bit of reading on the matter, and the only clue I could find is that it may have something to do with the new OpenGL 3 driver that was introduced in Catalyst 4.12. That's the only notable difference (with regard to OpenGL) since Catalyst 4.11.
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Old Nov 19, 2005, 11:10 AM   #4
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Someone posted a fix for this though:

http://rage3d.com/board/showthread.p...1&page=3&pp=30

Quote:
tracked the issue down to being the initialization of the particles using glPointParameterfEXT. Fortunately you can disable the "fancy" particles:

set gl_ext_pointparameters 0
vid_restart

Gives a good 5-10x speed boost. It appears the issue has already been addressed for the next driver version, but in the meantime, the above fix works quite well (for both Quake2 and Quake2-based games, such as Paintball 2). Happy fragging!--
I tried it on anachronox and it works great.

Last edited by didamangi : Nov 19, 2005 at 11:13 AM.
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Old Nov 19, 2005, 11:13 AM   #5
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Put

+set gl_ext_pointparameters 0 vid_restart

at the end of the shortcut link and it'll set it every time you start the game.
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Old Nov 19, 2005, 11:50 AM   #6
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i just add it to my autoexec.cfg for quake2 i get about 500-750Fps at 1280x1024 4xAA 16xAF (using the nocheat quake2 client)
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Old Nov 19, 2005, 12:12 PM   #7
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You know, I never even noticed this problem, since on an X850xtpe, quake2's framerate is already too high anyway. But to think of it, I think I actually tested quake2 a bit on my 9800 pro (before it died) on some 4.x series driver, and was seeing framerates in the 400+'s. I was wondering why, on my x850xt, why my FPS in the demo1.dm2 timedemo map @ 1024x768 was only arond 275....

I guess I see why....
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Old Nov 19, 2005, 03:17 PM   #8
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I tried the pointparameters setting a number of times and it just didn't do it for me. Quake 2 still had the issue. I'll test it with Anachronox since I just started playing it again. Awesome game. One of the 2 greats that came out of Ion Storm.
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Old Nov 19, 2005, 09:53 PM   #9
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ATi definitely has issues with Quake 2 and I first noticed performance tank during the 9700 Pro days.

Take a look at these benchmarks on a 6800U vs X800 XL. The 6800U was running 1920x1440 with 8xAA (which is 4xMSAA + 2xSSAA) while the X800 XL was running at 1856x1392 with 6xMSAA (in otherwords a much lighter setting). I know the 6800U is the faster card but the performance difference here is massive.

Code:
    
          6800U    X800 XL
Crusher   61.80      55.40
Demo2     74.20      59.40
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Old Nov 20, 2005, 12:22 AM   #10
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IMO: Stop playing 8 +/- year old games LOL!!! How about you wine abou the game
not being updated / patched by the developer to take better advanage of
todays hardware. There you actully have more of an argument!
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Old Nov 20, 2005, 12:36 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xessive
I tried the pointparameters setting a number of times and it just didn't do it for me. Quake 2 still had the issue. I'll test it with Anachronox since I just started playing it again. Awesome game. One of the 2 greats that came out of Ion Storm.
You didn't do the command correctly.
I tried it in both Quake2 and Heretic 2, and performance more than doubled in some cases. Average framerate doubled. Of course i had to disable vsync and TAA....

This may not work in some MODS (the command isn't even IN the Quake2 evolved engine.....)
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Old Nov 20, 2005, 12:49 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BFG10K
ATi definitely has issues with Quake 2 and I first noticed performance tank during the 9700 Pro days.

Take a look at these benchmarks on a 6800U vs X800 XL. The 6800U was running 1920x1440 with 8xAA (which is 4xMSAA + 2xSSAA) while the X800 XL was running at 1856x1392 with 6xMSAA (in otherwords a much lighter setting). I know the 6800U is the faster card but the performance difference here is massive.

Code:
    
          6800U    X800 XL
Crusher   61.80      55.40
Demo2     74.20      59.40
How did you get Quake2 to run in such a resolution?
Did you use command line parameters?
They work for quake 1 and Q3 (after turning off that r_mode thingy) but doesn't seem to work for Quake 2

I Just checked a console page and these are the only valid settings:

gl_mode
Type: Toggle

Default: 3

Description: Toggle the screen resolution mode.

Values:
0 - 320 x 200
1 - 400 x 300
2 - 512 x 384
3 - 640 x 480
4 - 800 x 600
5 - 960 x 720
6 - 1024 x 768
7 - 1152 x 864
8 - 1280 x 960
9 - 1600 x 1200

Last edited by Falkentyne : Nov 20, 2005 at 12:56 AM.
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Old Nov 20, 2005, 08:09 AM   #13
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Theres a modified exe you can download (since the source was released) that supports higher resolutions.
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Old Nov 20, 2005, 09:13 AM   #14
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it has nothing to do with the game being old and not updated for "Today's" hardware, ATI's drivers are broken (gl_ext_pointparameters, maybe in other area's also) and cant be seen in today's games because they rarely use a partial system. if the drivers were fixed backwards compatibility would come free as a bonus.
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Old Nov 21, 2005, 03:25 AM   #15
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You might be right Falkentyne. I'm gonna try to test some more, atleast until I figure it out. Thanks for the help

And Neon Cowboy! Just as Lemonzest stated, it's a particle system engine, and it doesn't matter if it's old, it should run optimally either way. Plus these are good games! Classic, awesome, and awesome. Also, some of my friends have old refurbished systems from hospitals and universities (sweet deals $15 for a 400 Mhz with a 15" monitor) and we can pretty much only run the older games.
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Old Nov 21, 2005, 04:44 AM   #16
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Quote:
How did you get Quake2 to run in such a resolution?
I modified the source code and built a new version for myself.
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Old Nov 21, 2005, 07:27 AM   #17
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well surprisingly quake2 is still quite a popular game, i see over 700+ servers with yahoo's all seeing eye!. and ATI's drivers are also broken in respect's to the fog extensions as the dev of GZDoom is having ALOT of trouble getting the same results he's getting with nVidia drivers. more info here

http://forum.drdteam.org/viewtopic.php?t=252
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Old Nov 22, 2005, 09:20 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_neon_cowboy
IMO: Stop playing 8 +/- year old games LOL!!! How about you wine abou the game
not being updated / patched by the developer to take better advanage of
todays hardware. There you actully have more of an argument!
It is coaded two the opegl standard. ROFLMAO!!1. It should works lol without slodowns for not eny apparent reson! If it was actully useing alot of non-standard xtensions you culd actully have more of an argument!

(translation: It's coded to the openGL standard. It should work without any unacceptable slowdowns; as long as it doesn't use a lot of weird extensions.)
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Old Dec 1, 2005, 06:36 AM   #19
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I too am disappointed in ATi. I've just bought a HIS Radeon 9250 just to play q2 with and the performance is apalling , 20-40fps most of the time no matter what the resolution (even in 320x240 gl is just as bad with software mode beating it). I've tried everything, including trying to force q2 to use atioglxx.dll instead of opengl32.dll but q2 crashes as soon as I launch it with atioglxx.dll (I do this by typing gl_driver atioglxx , then doing a vid_restart , is that the correct way?). It appears like this solution has worked for everyone else but not in my case Ive tried several [older] versions of atioglxx.dll as well, tried renaming it , tried using atioglx1.dll instead etc. , various [wrapper?] gl drivers such as ref_r1gl.dll, ref_q2cpgl.dll , but no luck.

Does anyone know how to force atioglxx.dll to work , or to test if it is correct for my video card, or that my video card is even installed and working 100% compatible with atioglxx.dll, or know of any other opengl driver that will work with the Radeon 9250?

I'm willing to try anything here if you think there is a slight chance of it working.

Thanks
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Old Dec 1, 2005, 03:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue
I've just bought a HIS Radeon 9250 just to play q2 with and the performance is apalling , 20-40fps most of the time no matter what the resolution (even in 320x240 gl is just as bad with software mode beating it). I've tried everything, including trying to force q2 to use atioglxx.dll instead of opengl32.dll but q2 crashes as soon as I launch it with atioglxx.dll (I do this by typing gl_driver atioglxx , then doing a vid_restart , is that the correct way?).
Negative. Here's what you should do:
1) Grab the 4.x opengl file. If you need it, I've zipped it up here:
http://zupload.com/download.php?file...filepath=24154

2) Copy this file into the Quake2 folder.. the one with the executable, NOT baseq2.

3) Just launch the game.

With this file in the quake2 folder, Q2 should pick this one.. provided you haven't hacked Q2 in any way, such as replacing the ref_gl file, executable, or the gamex86.dll in the baseq2 folder. There also should NOT be an opengl32.dll file in there, etc.etc.

A straight, Quake2 + 3.20 patch will pick-up this file when the executable is launched. Most hacked Q2 executables will also do so, but not certain dll/library optimizations. You should be trying to use the stock Q2 rendering DLL's if this isn't working for you.
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Old Dec 1, 2005, 09:08 PM   #21
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Ok, I've copied your file atioglxx.dll into the quake 2 directory but nothing improves, it's the same crud performance even lowering the resolution all the way and it still runs 20-30fps.

Here are all the drivers that I currently have in the quake2 and baseq2 folders:

c:\quake2\atioglxx.dll
c:\quake2\ref_gl.dll
c:\quake2\ref_soft.dll
c:\quake2\ref_r1gl.dll
c:\quake2\ref_q2cpl.dll
c:\quake2\baseq2\gamex86.dll

Now, I've tried using every rendering driver from ref_gl.dll to ref_q2cpl.dll and none of them increase the performance.

If only there was a way to tell if q2 has picked up atioglxx.dll and is using it, that would help things a lot, is it supposed to say that it's using atioglxx.dll in the q2 console somewhere?

The only thing I can think of is that it hasn't picked up atioglxx.dll.

Maybe the quake2.exe or gamex86.dll have been hacked, 'cause I downloaded the game off someone's ftp site.

Perhaps what I'll try is downloading the official q2 demo from the id software website and see if it picks it up with that.

Last edited by sonic_blue : Dec 1, 2005 at 09:11 PM.
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Old Dec 1, 2005, 10:40 PM   #22
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Just a question for anyone who has got q2 running successfully using the atioglxx.dll driver - when you type gl_driver , what is it set to - opengl32 or atioglxx ?
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Old Dec 2, 2005, 12:12 AM   #23
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1) Launch the game
2) Go immediately to the console
3) Type: condump junk

There will be a file junk.txt in the baseq2 folder.. copy paste like the first 10 lines or so.

And to answer your question- it should be opengl32
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Old Dec 2, 2005, 12:48 AM   #24
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Ok here it is

------- Loading ref_gl.dll -------
ref_gl version: GL 0.01
Initializing OpenGL display
...setting mode 6: 1024 768 FS
...attempting fullscreen
...using desktop display depth of 32
...calling CDS: ok
GL PFD: color(32-bits) Z(24-bit)
GL_VENDOR: ATI Technologies Inc.
GL_RENDERER: RADEON 9200 Series DDR
x86
GL_VERSION: 1.3.4707 WinXP Release
GL_EXTENSIONS: GL_ARB_multitexture
GL_EXT_texture_env_add
GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array
GL_S3_s3tc GL_ARB_occlusion_query
GL_ARB_point_parameters
GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp
GL_ARB_texture_compression
GL_ARB_texture_cube_map
GL_ARB_texture_env_add
GL_ARB_texture_env_combine
GL_ARB_texture_env_crossbar
GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3


Should it say atioglxx.dll somewhere in there?

Thanks for the help btw
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Old Dec 2, 2005, 01:12 AM   #25
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Nope.. that's the correct stuff but strange version number..

That 4.12 DLL should report:
GL_VERSION: 1.5.4776 WinXP Release

There is something bizarre I'm noticing with newer drivers- it seems even if you have sync every frame set to NO in Quake2, and "Off, unless the application specifies" for vsync in the drivers set.. it still has vsync enabled. I have to set the drivers to "Always Off" to get VSYNC off in Quake2.

Try forcing "Always Off" for vsync, then run a timedemo.
Console:
cl_maxfps 200
timedemo 1
demomap demo1.dm2

Report what framerate the demo runs in. Make sure you also have AA and AF set to "Application Preference" in the drivers as well and no Temporal AA!

Also, lastly- what are your full system specs? You do have a cpu/memory capable of getting >100fps in Quake2 I hope!
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Old Dec 2, 2005, 01:45 AM   #26
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Ah, that would be because I'm using Catalyst 4.11 drivers, according the the post at the top of this page, Catalyst 4.12 is where the performance problems arose. Is the driver that my console reported correct for the catalyst 4.11 version of atioglxx.dll?

IIRC that GL_VERSION line in the console has always been 1.3.x , I just assumed that was because the video card specs say it only supports Open GL 1.3 ... *confused*

The vsync is definitely off as I've noticed lots of picture tearing when the framerate chugs, also tried setting vsync on and noticed an even worse framerate. I have also tried setting AA and AF to minimum settings through catalyst control center, and even ati tray tools, textures at lowest resolution etc., AND resolution to 320x240 and it still chugs down to 20fps with large levels or busy deathmatch scenes. If I walk around a map that has hardly any geometry it gets up to 100fps, as soon as I round a corner into a larger area, or fire off a few rockets it drops down to 20fps.

I can't do a timedemo of that demo1.dm2 as I don't have it, have you got a demo that I could download and test it on?

My system specs -

Celeron 400mhz
192mb RAM
AGP 2x (3.3V) bus
running windows xp profressional version 2002
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Old Dec 2, 2005, 02:10 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BFG10K
ATi definitely has issues with Quake 2 and I first noticed performance tank during the 9700 Pro days.

Take a look at these benchmarks on a 6800U vs X800 XL. The 6800U was running 1920x1440 with 8xAA (which is 4xMSAA + 2xSSAA) while the X800 XL was running at 1856x1392 with 6xMSAA (in otherwords a much lighter setting). I know the 6800U is the faster card but the performance difference here is massive.

Code:
    
          6800U    X800 XL
Crusher   61.80      55.40
Demo2     74.20      59.40
hmmm my x850xt (1600x1200 6xMSAA 16xAF)
crusher 231.9
demo2 306.4

the particle fix(?? am i saying that right?) with the vid restart, actually LOWERS my fps...those scores are with stock 5.11 drivers and stock quake 2 3.20 no changes whatsoever.....
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Old Dec 2, 2005, 02:21 AM   #28
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hmm, I think theres something else going on.

When I place different versions of the atioglxx.dll driver into the quake2 folder , the GL_VERSION that is reported in the console changes to 1.3.xxxx , depending on the atioglxx.dll driver used, so it's safe to say that I am DEFINITELY getting quake 2 to use the atioglxx.dll driver , just the performance is still shot to pieces.

Any other ideas about what it might be?
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Old Dec 2, 2005, 02:58 AM   #29
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sonic_blue:
1) Try the 4.12 given as it's been the best all-around performer I've found, plus it has several fixes (such as for medal of honor games).
2) The demo1.dm2 is a built-in with Quake2. Just do the console commands as given and if you don't typo them, it will work. It could be helpful for you to determine what driver is best.. if any. You're likely just CPU bound though.
3) Do not run at 320x240 since I'm not even sure if it's a supported accelerated resolution any more. Choose 640x480 or greater.
4) A 192mb, Windows XP Celeron 400mhz is going to score similarly to what you are reporting, especially if your have AA/AF on ANY settings other than disabled on a 9200.
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Old Dec 2, 2005, 03:40 AM   #30
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sonic_blue is still being judged by the masses


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But a voodoo2 on a pentium 800mhz runs the game better than this! Are you saying it's all just cpu holding it back?
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