End of GM & Ford?

[VCS2600]

You have GM & Ford's falling market share because higher gas prices have slowed sales of their precious trucks/big SUVs. Plus California's tightening of environmental laws and how the domestic automakers are complaining about how it will add 3 grand to the cost of a new car.
Is there a way out for American car makers, or has the tide turned too far in favor of Toyota, Honda and such? One spokesperson for the domestics said they are designing and building good cars today, but buyers still think an import is better. Are cars like the Focus and Cobalt really as good as the imports

Import


&

Domestic

[daPhoenix]

Everyone knows Euro and Asian cars are better

Waits for the onslaught of patriotic kids

[Skynet]

Ford and GM will NEVER go under, the government would never allow it.

What is going to happen in the next 10-15 years is GM and Ford will continue selling more and more rebadged Japanese and Korean cars. At least 40% of American vehicle sales are actually trucks/suv's not cars. Recipe for disaster if gas prices keep going up.

It is only a matter of time before Toyota takes over GM as the largest auto company.

[Hyrax]

My 89' Corolla has 130,000+ miles on it and made 2 round trips from NJ to MI without a hitch..

It's a beast of a car..

[Trunks0]

One of the fastest falling segment in the auto industry is currently SUV's. Good thing too since they are stupid vechiles.

[XSBagage]

I heard American cars are heavier because of the way they're built, something to do with the bodywork. I kinda forgot so take this with a grain of salt, in european or asian cars the bodywork partly fulfills the role of the chassis, in American cars it doesn't so in American cars the chassis is heavier.
Ford or GM should just redesign their cars, I don't see why they wouldn't survive, if european or asian car manufacturers can make a car at suppose 15k a pop then why wouldn't GM or Ford be able to make the same car at around the same price?

[pax]

My toyota echo HB beat every other small car I test drove... Peppy and economical and can easily cruise at 140 kms... And toyota was the only one offering 5 year leasing... so monthly payment wise it was the cheapest.

[shasha]

This is just the beginning of what US auto manufacturers have to do to keep up. They aren't that far behind in technology or even overall quality IMHO, they are behind in environmental and economical thinking. It isn't like there are really a lot of overly bad autos out there anymore, cars have been around long enough that the real differences are in performance and features, not whether it is going to blow up in 15K miles.

As for the chasis, a lot of american cars use unibody, where the body is actually chasis support. I don't know about how much cheaper they are to manufacture since you still need a certain amount of metal to make it strong enough, but it would make sense. The only real problem is with repairs, you get in an accident and it is a lot harder to fix a unibody car.

As a former SUV owner I won't mind seeing less and less of these beasts on the road. I dumped it because it was a waste of resources. But if people are stupid enough to buy them than it makes sense to be stupid enough to build them. Don't blame the manufacturer, blame the consumers.

I also wouldn't be surprised one bit if the oil companies drove a little bit of the R&D decisions, more fuel burned means more profit for them. I mean they don't stand to make money with more economic cars.

[Djinn]

I was one of the early casualties... I had been working for GMAC Commercial Mortgage (GMACCM) for nearly five years. That's a division of GM that manages loans for commercial developers. Did very, very well for many years, but the business model wasn't sound.

In order to loan money to developers, GMACCM needed capital to loan out. Since GMACCM was a division of GM, they could borrow money from GM at absurdly low rates, and then loan that money to commercial developers for slightly higher rates that were still WAY below those offered by the competition. Now that GM's capital is trashed, the investors won't let GM loan GMACCM loan money out at those absurdly low rates. As a result, we had a harder time competing with other lenders, and GMACCM's fate is in question.

Since I was at the "almost five year mark," I "almost" had my pension vested. So I got laid off during a round of downsizing that took place while my wife was pregnant and in her third trimester. Fortunately, I was able to get a new job through a contracting agency. Ironically, it's with GMAC Residential Mortgage, which I'm told has a more diverse source of assets, and isn't nearly as vulnerable as the Commercial Mortgage side. I'm still a contractor, which means we have to turn to my wife's job for benefits, and I get zero vacation/sick days, but it beats unemployment by a long shot.

BTW Shasha; I differ... American auto manufacturers are WAY behind the times compared with Japanese manufacturers. The U.S. can manage horsepower, but if you want reliability, economy, and affordability, the U.S. can't beat Toyota or Honda. I don't know about Ford, but in just the last month or two, GM has had to recall over a HALF MILLION vehicles with defective parts.

[Skynet]

Originally Posted by Djinn

BTW Shasha; I differ... American auto manufacturers are WAY behind the times compared with Japanese manufacturers.

I agree. They are behind in design, technology, reliability, refinement, quality feel, everything. Name one American made car (NOT a rebranded one) that can compete with a Toyota or Honda on any level?

[Djinn]

May 2005
GM announces a billion dollar loss for the quarter
GM loans downgraded to sub-investor grade (junk)
GM recalls 300,000 SUVs

June 2005
GM recalls 300,000 Saturns
GM announces plans to close several plants and lay off 25,000 workers

On the plus side:
April 2005
Djinn calls Fidelity Investments, and has all of his 401(k) funds (retirement) in GM stock moved elsewhere.

[tristancarton]

i pretty much agree with you exactly on your main points sky. the amer. govt will never allow it and amer car companies are probably going to be in a little bit of trouble as gas hogs vehicles start to slow down in sales. (notice as i say little. trucks will always sell for commercial use)

as to their quality? i have no idea about now but i do know that the gm vehicles we have had in our household have been far from perfect vehicles. i also know a few friends that have had mid 90 cavaliers and other gm vehicles that have had problems with them. (bent rods, engine cracked, elect problems, etc.) meanwhile our 87 accord has gone through three teenage boys (a.k.a. hell to the car) and my 92 civic (low miles) are both running pretty well. i will say though that alot of quality has to do with the part manufacturers and that i believe many companies are using the same part manufacturers.

the last point i want to make is on someone stating the patriotic point. you won't see me saying your money isn't going to a foreign based company but you will see me state that many asian manufacturers actually manufacture alot of their vehicles here in the us and canada. i know honda specifically has a fantastic presence in my home state of ohio and usually treats their workers pretty well as far as salaries. (they are also non union) in addition they seem to be continuing their investment to manufacturing in the us with new hundreds of millions dollar factories here. (still unsure why when you can build and run a factory in china or korea for much less)

[AgentOtaku]

I hate huge SUVs and huge trucks with a passion. Most people don't need these dam things yet they are every f#4king where on the road!!!

ex: just yesterday me and my wife were buying clothes for our son in a children's store. In walks this obese, trashy looking mother and her kids with no shoes and old, tattered and stained clothes that I wouldn't have my child caught in. She looks through the store for a child's seat, cause she is having another one when her first 2 aren't past 5 yet. They ask for a few things and she scolds them.....when she left, she got into BRAND NEW Tacoma

where the hell is our culture headed

WTF


ps: sorry if this was more of a social commentary and not soo much on topic

[ErrorS]

My sister has a full-sized dodge van.. nearly 170,000 miles on it.. at one point the cruise control went out, a few months ago she had to buy new shocks, the rear went out.. otherwise, damn thing hasnt had any problems and its still a solid vehicle.

you can often find pontiacs for sell with over 200,000 miles.. F150s also last like a son of a *****..

You can't beat a dodge caravan for reliability, i don't give a **** what anyone says about this. my family buys vans like crazy and they always end up buying Caravans, ones that last for 150,000 miles. To be fair, my aunt had to replace the engine in her caravan at 150k, she wrecked it at 170k. My mother's van needed a new transmission at 60k, 2 days after she bought it from a dealer though... who knows what that was about. Still, 3 Caravans that lasted until 150k+ isn't bad.

Windstars also have problems with their transmission.. apparently, so does the Odessey. No clue why this is..

http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_T...nner_1995.html - 4runner doesn't do too bad, but compared to an explorer? http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_F...orer_1995.html

http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_Ford_F150_2000.html - Everyone loves the F150. best selling truck, reviewers rarely give it bad marks. not the strongest, not the fastest but people who really need trucks, farmers for example, will tell you that F150 is the best full-sized truck on the market.
http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_Ford_F150_2003.html
http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_Ford_F150_1993.html

People have normal complaints about the tundra:

http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_T...ndra_2000.html
http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_T...ndra_2001.html
http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_T...ndra_2003.html

I love this quote:

I'm afraid Toyota will have to make some major changes before I would consider buying another one

people like the bonneville: http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_P...ille_1995.html,
http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_P...ille_1999.html,
http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_P...ille_1997.html

and they can't stand the maxima:
http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_N...xima_2004.html
http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_N...xima_2000.html
http://www.carsurvey.org/modelyear_N...xima_1999.html
----

Ok, enough of that.. I would never personally buy an american car short of a pontiac. Neon? focus? crap... I wont trust a toyota truck, van or minivan. If I ever bought an SUV it would probably be a Durango and the F150 will be "the truck" for me as long as the people who put 200,000 miles on trucks doing farmwork, the people who put most of their miles on the truck pulling 4ton tractors, keep driving them.

it's not as black and white as "asian good! american bad!". Pisses me off that people can't figure this out. Manufactuars have their winners and they have their losers.. One area the Japanese will never lose their place as king in is the economic, cheap car class. Americans can do it.. they try it and the cars end up pieces of **** that die at sub-100k.

[curio]

Recalls are very common - Djinn, you make it seem like only GM does it.

May 2005
Toyota Motor Corp., in one of its largest safety recalls ever, is recalling more than 750,000 pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles because of problems with the front suspension that could hinder steering.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in696042.shtml

December 2004
Toyota recalls 150,061 Camry's

February 2005
Toyota recalls 22,228 Tacoma's

http://www.automotive.com/new-cars/recalls/01/toyota/

November 2004
Honda recalls 257,616 Accord's

http://www.automotive.com/2005/12/ho...lls/index.html


edit: don't get me wrong here, the recalls for GM are ridiculous (like over 1 million Chevy Avalanches recalled for problems with the rear seatbelts) - but recalls are a common thing with many companies.

[ErrorS]

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,060,000 for toyota recall. (0.05 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,310,000 for ford recall. (0.07 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 846,000 for gm recall. (0.15 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,060,000 for honda recall. (0.20 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,060,000 for dodge recall. (0.07 seconds)

ok, seriously now..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7887155/
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national...%3fformat=html

and the real winner

http://www.crash-worthiness.com/toyota/toyota.html

I have NOTHING against non-american vehicles. I just think American vehicles get too much flak for no real reason.

edit: err, curiophile beat me

[Themlasu]

Originally Posted by Hyrax

My 89' Corolla has 130,000+ miles on it and made 2 round trips from NJ to MI without a hitch..

It's a beast of a car..

My 89' Corsica has 212,000 on the odometer and has made mulitiple trips to NY from Nashville. No problems with it either, so I'm not sure whats the point. I still drive it daily because I can go 2 weeks without having to fill it up.

[tristancarton]

error, that so reminds me of an older caravan that a friends family had that we took to wv for mtn biking a few years back. the thing had over 200k on it and worked really well. though the father of the family (being a strict lawyer) prob kept it in good condition. all i remember was they had a logbook of every fillup the car had ever had and the amount they paid.

that being said i also took another trip down to fl for the 99 nye phish show with two brand new caravans. (this was back in 99) both top of the line leather, real swank. both ended up having problem on the trip.

Originally Posted by ErrorS

You can't beat a dodge caravan for reliability, i don't give a **** what anyone says about this. my family buys vans like crazy and they always end up buying Caravans, ones that last for 150,000 miles

[TiTaN]

My current drool car is the Mazda 6...I don't know what it is about it but I love the car.

I used to be so anti-rice that I hated all imports but then I realized how much money my 98 GTP was going through in gas and started to love the better economy cars like Celicas and older gen Eclipses and now I really love the sportiness of the Mazda 6 and the Acura RSX.

Too bad I'm just a poor college kid stuck with a gas-guzzler...at least it's fast and has heated leather seats, 12 disc changer, v8 exhaust etc.

[Slappy THM]

Between the two of them, they've got approx $473 Billion of debt.*. That'll be a real wear on the economy if the government is expected to bail them out.

*Forbes

[curio]

Originally Posted by Djinn

GM announces plans to close several plants and lay off 25,000 workers

I just noticed that on Msnbc. Here was one interesting quote about the difference between American car companies and their foreign rivals:

Chief Executive Rick Wagoner focused on priorities for clarifying the role of each of GM’s eight brands, intensifying efforts to reduce cost and improve quality and continuing to search for ways to reduce skyrocketing health care costs.

He noted that the company’s current $1,500 per worker health-care expense puts GM at a “significant disadvantage versus foreign-based competitors,” and said GM has conducted “intense discussions” with the unions about how to reduce health-care costs.

[DiaperJe|\|i3]

I think domestics have made some serious inroads in the last 10+ years. Right now (with gas prices and whatnot) most people are buying compact-midsized cars. Once GM/Ford/Dodge can deliver a quality product that people can get behind in that segment than the sales will follow.

The Malibu is a great car. Reliable and decent resale for a domestic. It needs a more fuel efficient engine to take more sales from the Accord and Camary but its getting there. If the Cobolt proves reliable then it may lift chevy out of the financial muck its currently mired in.

Ford Focus is another well designed car but had 3+ years of horrible quality control flaws. Since 2003 they've been on consumer reports recomended list.

The new Dodge Magnum/300 series is fantastic looking and performing. Again, its long term reliablity that they need to focus on.

Long story short. They are going in the right direction. Imports are generally better in this segment because they pretty much invented the segment. Fuel prices in europe/asia have been high for quite some time now. Reliable efficient cards were a must! Ultimately the big 3 has to get more vehicles out of the lemon aide guide and into the consumer reports 'good bet' list. Like any restructuing or changing in model it will take time. That being said I'll never get anything else as long as I can afford a honda

[VW_Factor]

Originally Posted by Trunks0

One of the fastest falling segment in the auto industry is currently SUV's. Good thing too since they are stupid vechiles.

There is no such thing as an SUV. There are trucks, and pickups. The only exception to this rule is a Jeep, because Jeeps are cool enough to have their own catagory.

SUV was a term thought up by some rich jerk, who wanted to drive a truck around (because of conveinence) but did not want the stigma of driving a "truck"..

So he called it a Sport Utility Vehicle. Digusting.

[TiTaN]

I like the new Charger...much like a cross between the magnum and a 300c with a friggin Hemi I'm in the process of convincing my mom to get one when they come out.

[Shadowless]

GM and Ford are too big to fall.

[DiaperJe|\|i3]

my theory is different VW, my theory is all those guys who used to drive sports cars then had to give them up for minivans when they got wife and kids. They all lobbied the car manufacturers for less emasculating vehicles with a cool sounding name. The wed a minivan top to a truck chassy and viola! Psudeo-testostrone. On the bright side; there are less angry agressive minivan owners out there now

[TiTaN]

Originally Posted by VW_Factor

There is no such thing as an SUV. There are trucks, and pickups. The only exception to this rule is a Jeep, because Jeeps are cool enough to have their own catagory.

SUV was a term thought up by some rich jerk, who wanted to drive a truck around (because of conveinence) but did not want the stigma of driving a "truck"..

So he called it a Sport Utility Vehicle. Digusting.

Over-reacting a bit? Are you saying that if I said SUV you'd beat the crap out of me and make me say truck?

A truck is a pickup...an suv is like a cross between a truck and a van, styling and performance of a truck with a larger interior like a van. They are distinctly different from trucks and vans, thus requiring their own classification.

Not saying "Sport Utility Vehicle" is the best name for what they are, but can't we just accept that that's what they're called? I mean, we could question the fact they are called trucks or cars or vans as initially someone had to name them, but we don't.

Moral of story: They are called SUVs...there are worse things in life to worry about that the naming of truck/minivan crossbreeds.

[curio]

Originally Posted by Shadowless

GM and Ford are too big to fall.

<insert 'the bigger they are the harder they fall' comment here>

[curio]

Originally Posted by DiaperJe|\|i3

my theory is different VW, my theory is all those guys who used to drive sports cars then had to give them up for minivans when they got wife and kids. They all lobbied the car manufacturers for less emasculating vehicles with a cool sounding name. The wed a minivan top to a truck chassy and viola! Psudeo-testostrone. On the bright side; there are less angry agressive minivan owners out there now

rofl!

[VW_Factor]

Originally Posted by oC|-TiTaN

Over-reacting a bit? Are you saying that if I said SUV you'd beat the crap out of me and make me say truck?

*snip*

Uuuuuhhh.. No.. I was merely sharing my feelings on the subject. If you feel that I typed this while foaming @ the mouth, you are incorrect.