Toshiba: BDA's victory claim "propaganda", sales figures "distorted" by BDA promos

[tranCendenZ]

http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertain...leid=943604279

Toshiba rejects Blu-ray victory claim
Moves to dispel anti-HD DVD 'propaganda'

Toshiba has rejected claims made yesterday at a Blu-ray press conference at CeBIT that its own HD DVD format is failing. Olivier Van Wynendaele, Deputy General manager of HD DVD at Toshiba Ltd said the claims were"propaganda" and then proceeded to dispute them point by point in a call to tech.co.uk

Last Thursday Blu-ray Disc Association chairman Frank Simonis said that Blu-ray discs were now out-selling HD DVDs by 3:1 in the US - a claim Van Wynendaele disputes.

Van Wynendaele argues that the reason for the disparity is that new owners of PlayStation 3 games console are simply redeeming free Blu-ray movie vouchers given to them by Sony that they have to exchange at retail stores - this is distorting genuine sales figures, according to Van Wynendaele.

He counter-claimed by declaring that Toshiba had sold 200,00 HD DVD players in the US, compared to just 30,000 true Blu-ray players. Van Wynendaele said that the two million PS3 sales could not be counted because there was no guarantee that people who were buying the consoles were: a) choosing to buy movies with their own money; or b) actually watching Blu-ray movies at all - the vast majority could be using the PS3 to play games on, for example. The truth is, he said, that neither format could claim victory when high def player sales accounted for less than 1% of regular DVD player sales - in the US at least

You drop your prices, we'll drop them lower

Van Wynendaele also said that Toshiba's player pricing strategy would still put its HD DVD format at an advantage when compared to Blu-ray. He said Sony's decision to offer a lower-priced player later in the year would be undercut by Toshiba.

Let's not forget the BDA-sponsored Buy 2 get 1 free sale at Fry's Electronics and 50% off BD discs at Amazon.com, in addition to the voucher scheme artificially inflating sales figures!

Also, note that Toshiba's "5 free HD DVD" promotion are not counted as retail sales since the coupon is sent to the HD DVD group and the HD DVDs come directly from the HD DVD promotion group.

[Oui]

Perhaps HD DVD group should do better at propaganda as thats all there really is to herd the sheep (consumers) these days. If they stand back and say "we're above that" then they will end up losing.

[tranCendenZ]

Originally Posted by Oui

Perhaps HD DVD group should do better at propaganda as thats all there really is to herd the sheep (consumers) these days. If they stand back and say "we're above that" then they will end up losing.

I dunno about that. Sony put out a whole lot of propaganda about the PS3 and they have been selling the worst thus far in the console races.

[painkiller]

Originally Posted by tranCendenZ

I dunno about that. Sony put out a whole lot of propaganda about the PS3 and they have been selling the worst thus far in the console races.

Have you ever stopped to wonder that the PS3 actually is selling better then X360 did at launch? There is ofcourse a flipper side to this as MS had a lot of production issues, but still PS3 is doing rather well considering its price point. I would suspect that it will start to sell better as there is now pretty compelling games coming for it.

200,00 HD DVD players in the US, compared to just 30,000 true Blu-ray players

Oh well there is an error, HD-DVD claims that they have sold 200,000 players compared to Blu-Ray's 30,000... That is a good bit of propagande there it self... So you wouldn't count a PS3 as a true Blu-Ray player even when someone buys it for that :P I think the media sales pretty much speak for them selves. Aren't those HD-DVD mailin rebates at Amazon hadled trough Amazon and thus would count as sales? Also should be mentioned that PS3 gave discount vouchers not free movies. Funny how HD-DVD people are now crying about foul play and price when the advantage is over at Blu-Ray. Too bad if you aren't getting enough releases or movies at the price you want. Good thing the hardware is cheap HD-DVD as it has nothing to play.

DVDempire.com hasn't had any Blu-Ray promotions or discounts and yet it is showing that Blu-Ray has been constantly outselling from the start of this year. How do you explain that?

[Oui]

Originally Posted by painkiller

Have you ever stopped to wonder that the PS3 actually is selling better then X360 did at launch? There is ofcourse a flipper side to this as MS had a lot of production issues, but still PS3 is doing rather well considering its price point. I would suspect that it will start to sell better as there is now pretty compelling games coming for it.



Now how can this be? More Blu-Ray players sold despite the fact that they cost more then HD-DVD players. Could it be the lack of movies on HD-DVD side? Or the lack of disc space or better yet the lack of durability.

The only reason to buy a bluray player over a HD DVD one is that bluray looks like it's gonna win the format war, thas why there are 30,000 sold.

[painkiller]

Oui I edited my post, there is an error at the first article with those numbers.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by painkiller

Have you ever stopped to wonder that the PS3 actually is selling better then X360 did at launch? There is ofcourse a flipper side to this as MS had a lot of production issues, but still PS3 is doing rather well considering its price point. I would suspect that it will start to sell better as there is now pretty compelling games coming for it.

x360's were sold out for months... ps3's were not

and look at these fun numbers:

Nintendo DS 485,000
Wii 335,000
PlayStation 2 295,000
Xbox 360 228,000
PlayStation Portable 176,000
Game Boy Advance 136,000
PlayStation 3 127,000
GameCube 24,000
Xbox 480

*Source: The NPD Group.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146545

[painkiller]

There is a reason why I mentioned X360 production issues, it is not like I didn't know it was sold out... Still I don't think PS3 is doing that badly when you also consider that X360 didn't have competition. Lets see how the sales are when this year ends or for the next coming months.


US
http://www.vgcharts.org/aconscomps.p...type=2&align=0

Japan
http://www.vgcharts.org/japconscomps...type=2&align=0

[Jack & Coke]

Wow! If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black. Talk about propaganda. 200,000 vs 30,000 maybe last year.

It was already covered that the free movie you get with a PS3 is not counted as a sale as it is not sold separately, however the 5 free movies from toshiba are counted as they are a rebate.

It's over and they know it.

[seeker010]

Originally Posted by Jack & Coke

Wow! If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black. Talk about propaganda. 200,000 vs 30,000 maybe last year.

It was already covered that the free movie you get with a PS3 is not counted as a sale as it is not sold separately, however the 5 free movies from toshiba are counted as they are a rebate.

It's over and they know it.

the ps3 coupons were counted as sales

[DeathKnight]

The PS3 coupons are used for POS (point-of-sale) purchases. The 5 free HD-DVD movies are not a mail-in-rebate (you don't buy them at a store and thus they don't show up in VideoScan numbers). It's a mail-in voucher and the movies are shipped to you.

[DeathKnight]

You're so deadbent on trying to spin everything that you don't even do your own legwork to get the correct information. It's a voucher and the movies are shipped to you. Here's the form itself:

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/...V43335898_.pdf

[VW_Factor]

I wonder if Jack ever posts in a thread not about Sony.

[painkiller]

Originally Posted by DeathKnight

You're so deadbent on trying to spin everything that you don't even do your own legwork to get the correct information. It's a voucher and the movies are shipped to you. Here's the form itself:

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/...V43335898_.pdf

Posted in a haste already tried to delete, but you beat me to it. Anyways do you not think that movie studios doesn't count these as sales? Obviously they aren't the ones giving those for free. Really what does this matter we get our movies cheaper just like you get your standalone units now cheaper. I still don't see Toshiba dominating in that field. Oh yea Blu-Ray plays dirty again with the PS3... Still those PS3 vouchers should count as sales because thats what they are. People actually has to pay for the movies, but according to you they shouldn't count as sales. Why is that?

[DeathKnight]

Originally Posted by painkiller

Anyways do you not think that movie studios doesn't count these as sales? Obviously they aren't the ones giving those for free.

They aren't counted as sales because 1) they're given away for free through a promotion and 2) they're not moved through the retail channel and eventually a POS, thus they won't show up in VideoScan sales numbers. It's a subsidization, something Sony and Co. are doing much more of. I'll leave it at that.

[painkiller]

Originally Posted by DeathKnight

They aren't counted as sales because 1) they're given away for free through a promotion and 2) they're not moved through the retail channel and eventually a POS, thus they won't show up in VideoScan sales numbers.

You didn't answer the question. The question was that do you not think that movie studios doesn't count these as sales? I do understand that these doesn't show up in VideoScan sales numbers, but what does those really matter to studios (they have their own numbers to look at)?

You also avoided my last question...

Also why does Amazon stock up so much more BDs?

It is like 4:1 stocking ratio for Blu-Ray. Kind of shows what they are thinking about this war.

[DeathKnight]

Originally Posted by painkiller

You didn't answer the question. The question was that do you not think that movie studios doesn't count these as sales? I do understand that these doesn't show up in VideoScan sales numbers, but what does those really matter to studios?

They may be counted as product in the hands of the consumer, but its not sales in the traditional sense (no money transacted between the customer and a retail entity). I honestly don't care about VideoScan numbers and I doubt the movie studios do either with HD movie sales paling in comparison to SD DVD. All they seem to be is an instigator for endless arguments around the net.

You also avoided my last question...

I avoided it on purpose because it'll just become another back and forth pissing argument. I'm not going to entertain your questions anymore about what I think of Sony this or Blu-Ray that, because you're never going to like the answer. You've always got a some kind of "smart" response or a new spin on what anyone says.

[Jack & Coke]

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2104850,00.asp

This article mentions the Blu-ray certificates.

According to experts cited by USA Today, gift certificates sold during the holiday season should have been cashed in in January or early February.
It's now March, and Blu-ray appears to be holding its edge -- proving either that the assumption was incorrect, or that Blu-ray's apparent momentum didn't need the crutch. Moreover, the total of Blu-ray discs sold now outweighs the number of HD DVD discs sold, giving both the short-term and long-term edge to Sony's format.

[painkiller]

Thnx for the link Jack. Kind of brings down the whole validity of Toshibas accusations. Seems like they aimed at their own foot. Yep we are bunch of liers... Not. One thing they were right about was that the war isn't over yet, but really Toshiba is now in a postition to only survive not come out as a clear winner and by doing so they may destroy the whole future of HD movies.

Originally Posted by DeathKnight

You've always got a some kind of "smart" response or a new spin on what anyone says.

A spin is what Toshiba is here trying to do... Yet they fail at it miserably.

BTW some really good news heading towards Blu-Ray, hopefully this doesn't end up just as a rumor (after all this is posted by one of the founding members):

Casino Royale sells over 100k copies first week.
http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=4822

[HybridHB]

I never got vouchers for free movies with my ps3. I only got a coupon book for small rebates ($5 or $10 off certain movies). Where can I get free movies?

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by painkiller

Have you ever stopped to wonder that the PS3 actually is selling better then X360 did at launch? There is ofcourse a flipper side to this as MS had a lot of production issues, but still PS3 is doing rather well considering its price point. I would suspect that it will start to sell better as there is now pretty compelling games coming for it.

Yeah, and if they'd held back the 360 a year, it would have launched better. So what? Fact is, PS3 is supposed to dominate this generation, yet it's a distant 3rd.

So you wouldn't count a PS3 as a true Blu-Ray player even when someone buys it for that :P

You should yes, but how do you know how many are bought as BD players? If you go by the typical attach rate of 2% as on 360, that's what . . . 5000 players per month? Fewer than the 360 HD player.

Most important point is how meaninglss it is to claim victory when you have 52% of 1% of the market.

[Renocide]

Originally Posted by Dawg

Most important point is how meaninglss it is to claim victory when you have 52% of 1% of the market.

Sony math is complexe. They could try to explain it but your head would exploded.

[painkiller]

Originally Posted by Dawg

Yeah, and if they'd held back the 360 a year, it would have launched better. So what? Fact is, PS3 is supposed to dominate this generation, yet it's a distant 3rd.

I know that Sony will be in trouble if the sales doesn't take of once they have enough compelling software for it. PS3 still has every change to come out in the top of this generation, but not dominate IMO. Still it has little to do with the format war because dispite the fact that it may end up as last it will still be sold to millions of homes far faster the any HD-DVD device and gives more time for the Blu-Ray standalone players to come down in price compared to HD-DVD.

You should yes, but how do you know how many are bought as BD players? If you go by the typical attach rate of 2% as on 360, that's what . . . 5000 players per month? Fewer than the 360 HD player.

Well if you go by that typical 360 attach rate then wouldn't the BD sales be less than HD-DVD?

Most important point is how meaninglss it is to claim victory when you have 52% of 1% of the market.

Yes already said that Toshiba got one thing right and that was that the war hasn't ended. But surely it is atleast a 2:1 advantage for Blu-Ray and growing, not a 52% share of the HD market as you claim.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by painkiller

I know that Sony will be in trouble if the sales doesn't take of once they have enough compelling software for it. PS3 still has every change to come out in the top of this generation, but not dominate IMO. Still it has little to do with the format war

It's related to the format war in that Sony seems to have sacrificed next gen console dominance in order to push Blu-Ray. PS3 might be in the lead today if it wasn't held back for BD, and jacked up to $600 for BD.

That decision may come back to haunt them, even if BD wins.

Well if you go by that typical 360 attach rate then wouldn't the BD sales be less than HD-DVD?

Again, I think PS3 early adopters have few games to play, and are forced to buy BD movies just to find uses for their $600 purchase.

[DaMack]

Originally Posted by Dawg

Yeah, and if they'd held back the 360 a year, it would have launched better. So what? Fact is, PS3 is supposed to dominate this generation, yet it's a distant 3rd.

When the PS1 launched it was third, damn in fact it accumulated 2.2 million sales over 2 years!

The PS2 sold terrible, people are talking about how PS3 is selling bad but in the same timeframe as the PS3 the PS2 had sold half as much.

You cant declare a winner yet Playstation consoles have always started off slower.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by DaMack

When the PS1 launched it was third, damn in fact it accumulated 2.2 million sales over 2 years!

The PS2 sold terrible, people are talking about how PS3 is selling bad but in the same timeframe as the PS3 the PS2 had sold half as much.

You cant declare a winner yet Playstation consoles have always started off slower.

Yeah, that's true, and IBM was once the dominant PC maker.

The tech world changes quickly, and past leaders can quickly become has-beens when they screw up. Nobody wants to be in Sony's position right now.

Nintendo has the hot, innovative product & hot sales.
Microsoft has momentum from XBox and great developer support.
Sony has laurels to rest on.

[painkiller]

It would be vice for Sony to realease a really stripped down (no BC hardware at all, no wifi, 20GB HD, differant case design not so damn complex that it is now) version of PS3. I bet they could pull it down to 400$ price range.

[Jack & Coke]

Just because the Xbox 360 came first does not make it an outright success. HD-DVD came out first and it's already starting to fall behind. If you compare sales numbers to release dates the PS3 is selling just as well as the 360.

When you consider 2 of the best selling consoles of all time are the PS1 and PS2, I think only the people with some sort of anti-sony agenda are crying about the current success of the PS3.

Considering how much more advanced the PS3 is over the competition you can expect it to cost more and to take a bit longer to get off the ground.

The 360 had plenty of growing pains in its first year. The Wii only really has it's new controller to separate it from the gamecube.

[DaMack]

Originally Posted by Dawg

Yeah, that's true, and IBM was once the dominant PC maker.

The tech world changes quickly, and past leaders can quickly become has-beens when they screw up. Nobody wants to be in Sony's position right now.

Nintendo has the hot, innovative product & hot sales.
Microsoft has momentum from XBox and great developer support.
Sony has laurels to rest on.

IBM was the top PC maker but it took a long time to change that it wasnt instant as you seem to be suggesting.

Nintendo had the hot innovative product last generation too when they said 'Hey look at our remote" Shigeru Miyamoto promoted it himself as revolutionary.

True to form the gamecube came to market costing 50% less than the PS2 and sold like hotcakes for over a year.

Its pretty much the same as last generation from the looks of it so far.

The xbox was a lot like the PC and PC development was easy compared to the PS2 architecture(which was a lot like the cell), that meant developers would run to the Xbox.

On top of that GTA came to the xbox and Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden became exclusives.

It didn't stop the PS2 outselling the Xbox several times.

People are making a lot of noise about the PS3 architecture but it was a LOT like the Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer in the PS2.

People are also making a lot of noise about how if Sony lose exclusives like Ace Combat 6 and Devil May Cry 4 theyr going to go under.

Damn Sony lost GTA which would sell a hell of a lot more than Devil May Cry 4 and Ace Combat 6 but that didnt bury Sony.

Ninja Gaiden was one of the highest rated games last generation and exclusive to the Xbox but it didnt stop Sony selling over 100 million PS2's did it?

So far everything that happened last generation is happening again with the difference being Microsoft's console is not the most powerful and some release date differences.

It looks like a replay of last generation so far

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by Jack & Coke

Just because the Xbox 360 came first does not make it an outright success. HD-DVD came out first and it's already starting to fall behind. If you compare sales numbers to release dates the PS3 is selling just as well as the 360.

When you consider 2 of the best selling consoles of all time are the PS1 and PS2, I think only the people with some sort of anti-sony agenda are crying about the current success of the PS3.

The Wii only really has it's new controller to separate it from the gamecube.

You can spin it however you like, but everyone from Sony stock analysts to Sony's CEO are scared by the poor PS3 sales. And why not? Sales dropped in half last month, I'd be scared!

Saying the Wii only has the controller to separate it is like saying the Ipod only has its interface to distinguish it. The Wii is #1 because of that controller, and Sony has no answer for it.

It's innovate or perish in this industry.