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Old Oct 17, 2018, 07:16 PM   #1
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howard stern
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Default AMD Zen 2 Offers a 13% IPC Gain over Zen+, 16% over Zen 1

I hope this is true, Intel might be in for a rough ride.

https://www.techpowerup.com/248642/a...-16-over-zen-1
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Old Oct 17, 2018, 09:10 PM   #2
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It seems like this would put IPC basically on par between Intel and AMD. Maybe even slightly in AMD's favor (at least if you tweak with custom ram timings)?

But the problem right now is that at the high end Intel also has about a 15-20% clock speed advantage (lower down it makes no difference because Intel locks their processors and basically cedes that advantage).

So for Ryzen to really challenge Intel it also needs to clock closer to 5 GHz.
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Old Oct 17, 2018, 11:54 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Nagorak View Post
It seems like this would put IPC basically on par between Intel and AMD. Maybe even slightly in AMD's favor (at least if you tweak with custom ram timings)?

But the problem right now is that at the high end Intel also has about a 15-20% clock speed advantage (lower down it makes no difference because Intel locks their processors and basically cedes that advantage).

So for Ryzen to really challenge Intel it also needs to clock closer to 5 GHz.
they say they are hitting 4.5 on the 8 core ES now

so it maybe end up to 4.7 or so

enough that i'll upgrade my 1800x and if it is cheaper than the 9900x it will kill it in sales
you won't be able to see the difference even at 1080p

and all intel's lower chips without HT will be a non starter
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Old Oct 18, 2018, 06:48 AM   #4
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I have a hard time believing AMD will surpass Intel anytime soon by virtue of clock speed + IPC. I just don't see it happening next gen. Quote me in 12 months - Intel will still dominate CPU gaming benchmarks IMHO.
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Old Oct 18, 2018, 06:51 AM   #5
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With the IPC increase and higher clock speeds it should make them competitive all the way down to 1080P, even for high refresh rate gaming. If they can get the Zen2 to reliably hit 4.5-4.6, with good chips getting closer to 4.8, I think it’s a winner. Even at 1440P 165Hz monitors, the limiting factor won’t be the CPU.
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Old Oct 18, 2018, 07:04 AM   #6
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I think they'll get close and undercut Intel's price, making them the better purchase, but still think Intel will ultimately be faster. My 2 cents.

You have to remember, 2700x at 4.2 is basically neck and neck with 8400 at 3.8 in gaming. You're asking a lot from AMD to match 5GHz 9900k.
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Old Oct 18, 2018, 10:33 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by demo View Post
I think they'll get close and undercut Intel's price, making them the better purchase, but still think Intel will ultimately be faster. My 2 cents.

You have to remember, 2700x at 4.2 is basically neck and neck with 8400 at 3.8 in gaming. You're asking a lot from AMD to match 5GHz 9900k.


Still, if it really is 16% faster than the 2700x at the same clock, then the 2700x would need to be clocked to 4.87 Ghz to offer the same performance that a 7nm Ryzen does at 4.2 Ghz…..What if the top speed of the latter isn't 4.2 but closer to 5 Ghz?....



The difference gets so small between it and Intel that we're down to low single digit performance differences, and having intel cost a couple hundred more because of it's gaming edge is marketing madness with a difference so small.....I can't wait for lisa Su's January 2019's unveiling of both 7nm CPU's and 7nm GPU's....
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Old Oct 18, 2018, 07:03 PM   #8
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These chips will be out in May of 2019?
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Old Oct 18, 2018, 07:20 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by andino View Post
These chips will be out in May of 2019?
Mid April I believe.

edit: I have read a couple articles, where some say may, some say april (and one saying specifically april 19th) so, right now, until they give us an official announcement from AMD on release date, It could be April or May.
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Old Oct 18, 2018, 08:52 PM   #10
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With the IPC increase and higher clock speeds it should make them competitive all the way down to 1080P, even for high refresh rate gaming. If they can get the Zen2 to reliably hit 4.5-4.6, with good chips getting closer to 4.8, I think it’s a winner. Even at 1440P 165Hz monitors, the limiting factor won’t be the CPU.
I'd argue they're already competitive even now at 1080P. But I guess it depends what you mean by competitive. They're not the absolute fastest, that's true. At the same time, most times you end up CPU limited you're well over 100 FPS anyway, so it's just not that important.

Although I like being capped at 144 Hz, I can deal with 110 or 120 fps. I don't really get upset until I'm sub-100 fps.

Funny thing, the other day someone in Dead By Daylight was complaining about getting low FPS, and I said that DbD seemed to have lower FPS than a lot of games. Turned out the guy was getting 30 fps (!!!) and I was upset because I was getting 90-115!


Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow001 View Post
Still, if it really is 16% faster than the 2700x at the same clock, then the 2700x would need to be clocked to 4.87 Ghz to offer the same performance that a 7nm Ryzen does at 4.2 Ghz…..What if the top speed of the latter isn't 4.2 but closer to 5 Ghz?....

The difference gets so small between it and Intel that we're down to low single digit performance differences, and having intel cost a couple hundred more because of it's gaming edge is marketing madness with a difference so small.....I can't wait for lisa Su's January 2019's unveiling of both 7nm CPU's and 7nm GPU's....
I agree. If the difference is 5-10 FPS and we're already well over 100 fps anyway, it's just not that important. That being said, for VR I might still consider an Intel system, since in that case I want absolute max performance just in case. I'm even considering the 9900K...just not sold on it due to the price.
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Old Oct 19, 2018, 02:22 AM   #11
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Quote:
Ryzen shine! AMD’s next CPUs could beat Intel at gaming in 2019
https://www.digitaltrends.com/comput...-zen-2-ipc-13/

Quote:
AMD Cuts Ryzen 7 2700X’s Price Ahead of Intel 9900K Launch
Quote:
a 10 percent cut to the 2700X that went live today, taking the chip from $329 to $294. The move puts AMD at a sharp price advantage over Intel, whose Core i9-9900K will debut at $488.

https://www.extremetech.com/computin...l-9900k-launch
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Old Oct 19, 2018, 02:27 PM   #12
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Less than $300 bucks...geez.

The 9900k reviews show very little difference at anything other than 1080p and less than half the street price. Insane. Zen 2 will be very interesting if rumors are true.

Should see a massive jump in Elmer's stock price after Intel switches to them to help with temperatures and yields.
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Old Oct 19, 2018, 05:16 PM   #13
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Less than $300 bucks...geez.

The 9900k reviews show very little difference at anything other than 1080p and less than half the street price. Insane. Zen 2 will be very interesting if rumors are true.

Should see a massive jump in Elmer's stock price after Intel switches to them to help with temperatures and yields.
Half the street price without factoring in the cost of a cooler that is needed for the 9900k.
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Old Oct 19, 2018, 08:01 PM   #14
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AMD need to make up a 26% performance deficit to match 9900k. It is possible, but I just don't see it happening.

What's interesting is in CPU heavy PC exclusives, like Total War, the 9900k pulls away even further. 34% faster at 4K.
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Old Oct 19, 2018, 11:01 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by demo View Post
AMD need to make up a 26% performance deficit to match 9900k. It is possible, but I just don't see it happening.

What's interesting is in CPU heavy PC exclusives, like Total War, the 9900k pulls away even further. 34% faster at 4K.
many review sites have various results, some show up to 20% in some games, some show much less. However, this quote from their article sums up Computer base's incompetence:

Quote:
Total War Warhammer, on the other hand, reveals that this game does not really care what graphics card is installed and what resolution is applied. The FPS and frametimes are in UHD exactly the same as in Full HD.
(Not possible no matter if it is GPU or CPU limited)

Funny how tech radar shows a 50 fps drop going from 1080p to 4k in the very same game.

https://www.techradar.com/reviews/in...9-9900k-review

Computer base has no clue what they are doing.
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Old Oct 20, 2018, 12:37 AM   #16
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Actually that's exactly what you'd see if you were CPU limited, say in a PC RTS game with thousands of units on screen..

On the other hand, Techradar shows 8700k at 4.7, outperforming 9900k at 5Ghz, in that same title.
They are the same architecture with the same cores, but 9900k is clocked higher and has more cache, and you expect me to believe it runs worse? With minimums cut by half?? Come on now..

Techradar did have this to say:
Quote:
To be fair, we’ve also ran across a string of bugs in our testing including the processor and motherboard not recognizing our Nvidia GeForce GTX 1080 Ti, which then resulted in multiple blue-screens of death and computer crashes.

Plugging in our Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Ti seemed to only exacerbate the situation to the point we couldn’t even start Shadow of the Tomb Raider. Instead, we got a message that our system doesn’t have enough resources to run the game at 1080p and highest quality settings.
Computerbase are a fairly reputable site and their system wasn't full of bugs and crashes. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your comments.
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Old Oct 20, 2018, 12:52 AM   #17
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Z390, while being a refresh of Z370, apparently has it's own issues.

A few of reviews I have read has said the same about random BSOD's and attributed it to the MB bios and the Z390's.
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Old Oct 20, 2018, 01:00 AM   #18
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Yes they had issues. Does that affect the validity of their CPU benchmarks? Say, in comparison to a review with no such problems?

Mind you, Techaradar tested with 1080TI (due to issues), and Computerbase 2080TI.
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Old Oct 20, 2018, 01:09 AM   #19
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Actually that's exactly what you'd see if you were CPU limited, say in a PC RTS game with thousands of units on screen..

On the other hand, Techradar shows 8700k at 4.7, outperforming 9900k at 5Ghz, in that same title.
They are the same architecture with the same cores, but 9900k is clocked higher and has more cache, and you expect me to believe it runs worse? With minimums cut by half?? Come on now..

Techradar did have this to say:


Computerbase are a fairly reputable site and their system wasn't full of bugs and crashes. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your comments.
I don't think I need to re-evaluate my comment:

From the article:
Quote:
At the same time, in the course of the last necessary error analysis , all game benchmarks were reset and all values ​​were newly determined.
https://translate.google.com.au/tran...2%2F&sandbox=1



They originally had the 2700x losing 10% of their frame rate going going from a 1080ti to a 2080ti in the flawed tests, and the 2600x substantially behind the 2700x (even though they are virtually identical when it comes to gaming). Then we have the Total War results and their comment..

Are you seriously trying to claim that Total War is CPU limited at 4k? LOL uh, no. Specially when other's are getting a huge difference in frame rate between 1080p and 4k.

As for techradar's errors, just because they chose to disclose that, doesn't mean that computer base was error free, Computer base could be choosing to not disclose that info. Computer base doesn't even disclose much about the actual hardware used for the testing. We also have no idea what cooling was used, Stock or OC speeds etc. So I am sure that disclosing any errors during their testing is not even on the list.

As for your comment on the 8700k beating the 9900k, well it is happening with other reviews as well:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13400...600k-review/11

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13400...600k-review/12

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13400...600k-review/13

(even computer base shows the 8700k beating the 9900k in other games)


So.. yea..

Quote:
Originally Posted by demo View Post
Yes they had issues. Does that affect the validity of their CPU benchmarks? Say, in comparison to a review with no such problems?

Mind you, Techaradar tested with 1080TI (due to issues), and Computerbase 2080TI.
How do we know Computer base didn't have problems? They could have just chosen not to disclose them as techradar did, as I said above. I guess we would know more if Computer base disclosed the exact hardware used for testing, and if al benchmarks where stock or with OC... So many unanswered questions about their testing environment/methods.

So, techradar used a 1080ti for their Total War benchmarks, and saw a 50 fps drop going from 1080p to 4k (60% reduction) ... and somehow, computerbase shows 20% lower performance at 1080p on a 2080ti than what techradar did with 1080ti. But some how where able to come out with 90% better performance at 4k than the 1080ti? With the results being the identical performance as their 1080p results... Right!

On a different note: The power draw under load.... ouch!!!!
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Old Oct 20, 2018, 01:26 AM   #20
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I think you misunderstand. They used a 1080TI for application benchmarks to keep consistency with old testbed benchmarks, but for gaming they re-ran their suite of games with 2080TI.


I don't see a screenshot of 9900k overclocked.


Computerbase results look exactly how I'd expect TBH.



They align with previews reviews, and the 9th gen chips look to sit exactly where you'd expect over 8th gen. What are you having difficulty believing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWR_Midnight View Post
and somehow, computerbase shows 20% lower performance at 1080p on a 2080ti than what techradar did with 1080ti.
Did it ever occur to you they didn't benchmark the same scene?
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Old Oct 20, 2018, 01:31 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by demo View Post
I think you misunderstand. They used a 1080TI for application benchmarks to keep consistency with old testbed benchmarks, but for gaming they re-ran their suite of games with 2080TI.


I don't see a screenshot of 9900k overclocked.


Computerbase results look exactly how I'd expect TBH.



They align with previews reviews, and the 9th gen chips look to sit exactly where you'd expect over 8th gen. What are you having difficulty believing?

I removed the comment about he screen shot, as I forgot that the 2 core boost is 5.0GHZ on the 9900k which is what the screen shot was showing. My mistake, sorry.

You said techradar used the 1080ti for their testing because of errors. Computer base re-ran the game benchmarks because their prior benchmarks where flawed. Hence why they said everything was reset and new values where determined. I don't think I misunderstood.

Why are you linking frame times? We already know that Intel has a higher IPC... for now.. until Ryzen 2 is out. Which will obviously effect frame times.


in the end, computer base is the only one showing such huge differences between the 9900k and the 2700x. All others do not show such a huge different, yes, the 9900k beats the 2700x at 1080p, which was expected, but once you move to 1440p and 4k, the lead disappears and at 4k is basically no existant.. except in computer base's results, specially Total War... which their results of that game are seriously flawed.
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Old Oct 20, 2018, 02:14 AM   #22
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Ok I see they re-ran their tests from an old 8700k vs 2700x review, due to a windows error, and all CPU's gained performance. Deltas are still similar.

You can dismiss their Total War result but 9900k is still significantly faster across the board, there's no doubt about it. BTW, I would dismiss Techradars results too. They have some very strange figures that don't align with any other reviews - and they admit they're having issues. They need to re-run their suite.

You're right, I accidentally posted frame times, not frame rate comparison:


This looks about as expected to me. Sure, the lead diminishes as you increase resolution, but we go through this every CPU release.. Ideally you want the fastest CPU at lower resolutions, as it's an indication of future performance deltas at higher resolutions when you have more GPU power, use MGPU, or simply turn some settings down.
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Old Oct 20, 2018, 12:17 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demo View Post
Ok I see they re-ran their tests from an old 8700k vs 2700x review, due to a windows error, and all CPU's gained performance. Deltas are still similar.

You can dismiss their Total War result but 9900k is still significantly faster across the board, there's no doubt about it. BTW, I would dismiss Techradars results too. They have some very strange figures that don't align with any other reviews - and they admit they're having issues. They need to re-run their suite.

You're right, I accidentally posted frame times, not frame rate comparison:


This looks about as expected to me. Sure, the lead diminishes as you increase resolution, but we go through this every CPU release.. Ideally you want the fastest CPU at lower resolutions, as it's an indication of future performance deltas at higher resolutions when you have more GPU power, use MGPU, or simply turn some settings down.
Well, Computer base has inflated intel's lead, but believe what you want, as all other reviews on average have intel's lead averaging half of what Computer base shows, However, results are all dependent of what games they chose to benchmark.

As an example, Anandtech's results show with more than half of the games they bench marked, intel's 9900k is only having a 3% to 4% lead over the 2700x at 1080p, with the remanding games being 20% to 35% faster. At the end of the game, I mean day , after you take a look at all the results from all the review sites, average them all out, Intel's lead with the 9900k sits at about 15% on average in gaming, not the 29% computer base wants it's readers to believe.

Edit: I do have to question Anandtech's results in AoS-classic. As I did the CPU focused test and I only get 40.5 fps using 1080p standard on my 2700x/vega 64. If I run the GPU focused, same settings, I get 83.5 fps average gpu and 85 fps average CPU.... So I am not sure where they are getting 66.2 fps in their results..
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Old Oct 20, 2018, 05:29 PM   #24
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Stock to stock is kind of irrelevant anyway. I'd be more interested in 8700K overclocked to the 9700K/9900K's clock speeds. It's basically the same silicon, one is just "pre-overclocked" and the other you have to set the values in BIOS yourself.

Really the difference is going to be in situations where more cores are used the 9900K comes out ahead. In other situations there's no reason to think it would be particularly faster than the 8700K at similar frequency.

9700K seems to be in a weird place where it has two more physical cores but 4 fewer threads than 8700K, which ends up with some odd results. 9700K probably a little faster, but not by as much as you'd think it would be.

But in the end, you're still in a situation where at anything more than 1080P it basically makes no difference what CPU you have. You can cherry pick individual games, but the reality is you're paying several hundred dollars more for maybe a couple of games. Many won't consider it to be worth it. The Ryzen 2700X and 2700 look like great bargains in comparison.
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Old Oct 20, 2018, 06:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Nagorak View Post
Stock to stock is kind of irrelevant anyway. I'd be more interested in 8700K overclocked to the 9700K/9900K's clock speeds. It's basically the same silicon, one is just "pre-overclocked" and the other you have to set the values in BIOS yourself.

Really the difference is going to be in situations where more cores are used the 9900K comes out ahead. In other situations there's no reason to think it would be particularly faster than the 8700K at similar frequency.

9700K seems to be in a weird place where it has two more physical cores but 4 fewer threads than 8700K, which ends up with some odd results. 9700K probably a little faster, but not by as much as you'd think it would be.

But in the end, you're still in a situation where at anything more than 1080P it basically makes no difference what CPU you have. You can cherry pick individual games, but the reality is you're paying several hundred dollars more for maybe a couple of games. Many won't consider it to be worth it. The Ryzen 2700X and 2700 look like great bargains in comparison.


Do keep in mind though that when the extra cores on the 9900K are in use, the power consumption also goes up over the 8700K with it's 6 cores /12 threads, so the same clock speeds might not hold any longer on the 9900k and/or you need better cooling.....Extra hardware coming into play doesn't do so free of charge.
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Old Oct 22, 2018, 04:16 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagorak View Post
Stock to stock is kind of irrelevant anyway. I'd be more interested in 8700K overclocked to the 9700K/9900K's clock speeds.
Yeh I agree, that's the whole point of 'K' chips. All core max clocks. This is where Intel shines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow001 View Post
Do keep in mind though that when the extra cores on the 9900K are in use, the power consumption also goes up over the 8700K with it's 6 cores /12 threads, so the same clock speeds might not hold any longer on the 9900k and/or you need better cooling.....Extra hardware coming into play doesn't do so free of charge.
That's true too, even power consumption for 8700k OC'd goes through the roof. 9900k OC'd looks like a tough chip to handle, even with elaborate custom loops.
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Old Oct 22, 2018, 10:32 AM   #27
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Holy **** if it's true:


https://www.tweaktown.com/news/63592...ess/index.html



Intel finally kills off it's 10nm process once and for all?.....
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Old Oct 22, 2018, 11:17 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow001 View Post
Holy **** if it's true:


https://www.tweaktown.com/news/63592...ess/index.html



Intel finally kills off it's 10nm process once and for all?.....
If they can't get 10nm process working, how do they plan on getting the 7nm process working short of crawling and bagging to those that have perfected the 7nm process? Going to be an interesting year in 2019 on the CPU front.
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Old Oct 22, 2018, 01:17 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by NWR_Midnight View Post
If they can't get 10nm process working, how do they plan on getting the 7nm process working short of crawling and bagging to those that have perfected the 7nm process? Going to be an interesting year in 2019 on the CPU front.
How good is Intel's 14nm++++ compare to TSMC/Samsung 7nm?
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Old Oct 22, 2018, 01:21 PM   #30
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AMD should move up the 3700/3800x to December 15th and give Intel a merry Christmas
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