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Old Feb 20, 2020, 04:53 PM   #1
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Cyko
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Default Job Question

So, lets say you've spent the last 2 years building a program, being paid about 60% less than your peers but staying because you love your team. In that same time you've been recognized in your industry as a leader, have massively expanded your skill set, etc. You're also the unquestioned expert in your field in the company, nobody doubts this. It's also widely recognized that you and your team are rock stars and constantly exceed expectations/milestones.

Now let's say that the company you work for hires a new C-level. Said C-level comes in and goes "I want this guys team (me) to report under me". Other C-levels say "OK" and go "as of the 28th of this month you'll be reporting to this new C-level".

Ok....not pleased, but let's see how this goes. Now I hear today that this C-level, without me even reporting to him yet, is going to hire someone to manage both myself and another senior director.

How would you react?

My immediate reaction: f*ck this place. The day this new guy starts, whenever that may be, is the day I turn in my **** and walk out the door. My industry is BOOMING and I have over 3 months of salary saved up.

My reaction after thinking: Just got promoted, got a 20% pay raise. Stay in role until I build up 6 months of salary, all while looking for a new job. If new job somehow magically does not materialize, sit back, relax, and wait for the firing. Take a month to relax, spend the remaining time (8 hours a day) looking for work.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 05:05 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyko View Post
So, lets say you've spent the last 2 years building a program, being paid about 60% less than your peers but staying because you love your team. In that same time you've been recognized in your industry as a leader, have massively expanded your skill set, etc. You're also the unquestioned expert in your field in the company, nobody doubts this. It's also widely recognized that you and your team are rock stars and constantly exceed expectations/milestones.

Now let's say that the company you work for hires a new C-level. Said C-level comes in and goes "I want this guys team (me) to report under me". Other C-levels say "OK" and go "as of the 28th of this month you'll be reporting to this new C-level".

Ok....not pleased, but let's see how this goes. Now I hear today that this C-level, without me even reporting to him yet, is going to hire someone to manage both myself and another senior director.

How would you react?

My immediate reaction: f*ck this place. The day this new guy starts, whenever that may be, is the day I turn in my **** and walk out the door. My industry is BOOMING and I have over 3 months of salary saved up.

My reaction after thinking: Just got promoted, got a 20% pay raise. Stay in role until I build up 6 months of salary, all while looking for a new job. If new job somehow magically does not materialize, sit back, relax, and wait for the firing. Take a month to relax, spend the remaining time (8 hours a day) looking for work.
"Just got promoted, got a 20% pay raise. Stay in role until I build up 6 months of salary, all while looking for a new job. If new job somehow magically does not materialize, sit back, relax, and wait for the firing. Take a month to relax, spend the remaining time (8 hours a day) looking for work"

This. Revenge is a dish best served cold, keep your emotions in check.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 05:48 PM   #3
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Good old boy's club is coming to you. That guy he's going to hire probably was his yes man at his old gig.

I've always said, it's easier to find a job while you have a job.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 05:52 PM   #4
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Quote:
Just got promoted, got a 20% pay raise. Stay in role until I build up 6 months of salary, all while looking for a new job. If new job somehow magically does not materialize, sit back, relax, and wait for the firing. Take a month to relax, spend the remaining time (8 hours a day) looking for work.
Id do this option. I mean, they either appreciate you or they don't. If they don't then I'd look for some other place where they would appreciate you more.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 08:04 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by acroig View Post

This. Revenge is a dish best served cold, keep your emotions in check.
Keeping the emotions in check is the hard part. The only reason I didn’t throw this c-level out of the 9th floor window is because I have a wife at home

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greasy View Post
Good old boy's club is coming to you. That guy he's going to hire probably was his yes man at his old gig.
You are 100% correct sir. He already did the same thing to another department he was in charge of. The people in that dept didn’t even know they were getting a new boss until I asked them “hey, so when do you meet your new VP?”

Quote:
Originally Posted by andino View Post
Id do this option. I mean, they either appreciate you or they don't. If they don't then I'd look for some other place where they would appreciate you more.
Yeah, now that I’ve cooled off a bit I’m just going to go into not giving a **** mode and start looking for a job instead of busting ass here. I have an LLC that I own for tax purposes that I can always use as “employment” if **** hits the fan and I can’t deal anymore.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 08:20 PM   #6
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 08:23 PM   #7
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In IT, never stop looking. Doesn't mean you are interested in leaving, but you keep looking to make sure you are current on what companies are looking for in specific roles.

I would recommend using LinkedIn and other job sites to "apply" for jobs to see what's out there. Don't post your resume as you don't want to directly advertise that you are looking.

Keep in mind, just because you apply to a job, doesn't mean you have to take it if they offer it. There is never any harm in networking and talking to other companies.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 11:11 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by acroig View Post
Revenge is a dish best served cold, keep your emotions in check.
and try to make the "new" guy look like he doesn't know what he&s doing. me thinks the op should be the supervisor
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 11:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyko View Post
How would you react?

My immediate reaction: f*ck this place. The day this new guy starts, whenever that may be, is the day I turn in my **** and walk out the door. My industry is BOOMING and I have over 3 months of salary saved up.

My reaction after thinking: Just got promoted, got a 20% pay raise. Stay in role until I build up 6 months of salary, all while looking for a new job. If new job somehow magically does not materialize, sit back, relax, and wait for the firing. Take a month to relax, spend the remaining time (8 hours a day) looking for work.
So, you got a 20% pay raise... you're still significantly behind your peers. Staying just means depriving yourself of the difference for that much longer. Clearly they aren't intending to put YOU in that management position and for some reason they are going to insult you further by implying that you need a new babysitter.

F that. Start looking for a new job TODAY. Don't quit until you have one lined up, then bail at the earliest opportunity.


Remember, most companies will exploit you indefinitely if given the opportunity... the more they think you'll put up with the more abusive it will be. I kept telling my brother that, but he refused to leave for 20 years. Much happier now that his new wife pressured him to get a new job and leave his comfort zone.
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 11:28 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by koralis View Post
So, you got a 20% pay raise... you're still significantly behind your peers. Staying just means depriving yourself of the difference for that much longer. Clearly they aren't intending to put YOU in that management position and for some reason they think you need a new babysitter.

F that. Start looking for a new job TODAY. Don't quit until you have one lined up, then bail at the earliest opportunity.


Generally speaking, companies today have ZERO loyalty to their employees, so I have no problem leaving them in the lurch if a better offer comes along.
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 11:35 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koralis View Post
So, you got a 20% pay raise... you're still significantly behind your peers. Staying just means depriving yourself of the difference for that much longer. Clearly they aren't intending to put YOU in that management position and for some reason they are going to insult you further by implying that you need a new babysitter.

F that. Start looking for a new job TODAY. Don't quit until you have one lined up, then bail at the earliest opportunity.


Remember, most companies will exploit you indefinitely if given the opportunity... the more they think you'll put up with the more abusive it will be. I kept telling my brother that, but he refused to leave for 20 years. Much happier now that his new wife pressured him to get a new job and leave his comfort zone.
Thirded.

I've (and my team ) have been though the same, exact situation at my company. And it sucks.

My issue is that it's tough to find anything here that much younger folks aren't already being chosen for + the longevity and benefits.

You're in a good position to move. Do it, but not until something else is lined up.
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 11:47 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by warmonger180 View Post
and try to make the "new" guy look like he doesn't know what he&s doing. me thinks the op should be the supervisor
problem with this.. the new guy is the c-levels buddy. No matter what he won't be booted.
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 11:49 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Lazy8s View Post
My issue is that it's tough to find anything here that much younger folks aren't already being chosen for + the longevity and benefits.

You're in a good position to move. Do it, but not until something else is lined up.
This, for anyone 45+ this is a real issue.
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 12:21 PM   #14
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This, for anyone 45+ this is a real issue.
Depends on the industry and the position.

I held my first CISO role at a fortune 500 when I was 32, which is relatively young for that title. I’ve also seen absolute rock star pentesters who were 55+. In my view, in the security game (with good companies) it’s less about age/education than it is about passion, a thirst for knowledge, and skill.

That being said, after I get back from speaking at RSA (security conference) next week my job hunt will kick into high gear. Spoke with some of my peers and the consensus is do the absolute minimum during the day to not get fired and do the maximum at night to GTFO.
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 12:29 PM   #15
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Depends on the industry and the position.

I held my first CISO role at a fortune 500 when I was 32, which is relatively young for that title. I’ve also seen absolute rock star pentesters who were 55+. In my view, in the security game (with good companies) it’s less about age/education than it is about passion, a thirst for knowledge, and skill.

That being said, after I get back from speaking at RSA (security conference) next week my job hunt will kick into high gear. Spoke with some of my peers and the consensus is do the absolute minimum during the day to not get fired and do the maximum at night to GTFO.


Best of luck to you, homey. I'm sure you'll snag a new gig faster than KAC's maid catches a new STD.
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 12:30 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Cyko View Post
That being said, after I get back from speaking at RSA (security conference) next week my job hunt will kick into high gear. Spoke with some of my peers and the consensus is do the absolute minimum during the day to not get fired and do the maximum at night to GTFO.
Sounds like a good plan, make it so!
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 12:34 PM   #17
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Best fortune Cyko. It won't take you long.
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 02:20 PM   #18
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Good luck man!
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 02:41 PM   #19
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Appreciate it guys. I'm just so pissed this is happening.

I've successfully ran the infosec program here for 2 years. First year was cleanup from the last person, who didn't know her ass from her elbows. Last year was "my year" after implementing the program I designed. We've passed all our regulatory audits with flying colors. We've had numerous pentests and red team exercises conducted and have passed those with flying colors. We had exactly ZERO breaches last year (incidents = yes, but none that led to compromise or exfil of data), a first in the history of the company.

Spoke to the director of IT, who is also going to be reporting to this new person, and he's equally as pissed. He thinks the reason is a) we aren't yes men and b) we operate at a level he doesn't understand. The CIO, who we report to now, didn't know what MDM was and couldn't understand why - in a regulated environment - he couldn't do the same things on his company provided macbook pro that he could on one he would buy from Best Buy. We both tried for 30 minutes to explain it to him until he finally just said "whatever, lets move on". He's a F****** moron. So I guess he wants someone who will do whatever he wants and not ask questions / challenge him.

I really love the team I work with. They're all super passionate about what we do and enjoy the weekly CTF style challenges I post up in our slack to help challenge their thought processes, learn new skills, etc. Best group of people I've worked with in my career and 1/4 have quit because of this dickhead, another 1/4 are moving into compliance roles so they don't have to deal with said dickhead, and the remaining 1/2 is too green in the field to really go anywhere else so they're stuck. So when I bounce I'm essentially going to royally screw those people.

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Old Feb 21, 2020, 02:50 PM   #20
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Never leave a boat without having the next one.
THIS!
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 04:01 PM   #21
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Apply for the new position of director or the manager. Maybe he doesn't know what roll you want to play. I guess what I am saying, is have you made everyone aware that you want that responsibility, or want to be promoted up into those higher management positions?

Moving up in many companies isn't like the old days where they came and asked or talked to you to fill a position, that is above you. They post the position and expect you to come to them.
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 04:22 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by NWR_Midnight View Post
Apply for the new position of director or the manager. Maybe he doesn't know what roll you want to play. I guess what I am saying, is have you made everyone aware that you want that responsibility, or want to be promoted up into those higher management positions?

Moving up in many companies isn't like the old days where they came and asked or talked to you to fill a position, that is above you. They post the position and expect you to come to them.
Apply for the VP? Wouldn’t happen. They promoted me to senior director knowing full well I wanted the VP gig because I wrote the damn job description for the VP role and put that in my EOY report for my development path. Plus, they only do one promotion max. Even if I were able I wouldn’t be eligible.

I think they didn’t make me VP because dickhead wants to hire one of his buddies.
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 07:57 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Cyko View Post
Apply for the VP? Wouldn’t happen. They promoted me to senior director knowing full well I wanted the VP gig because I wrote the damn job description for the VP role and put that in my EOY report for my development path. Plus, they only do one promotion max. Even if I were able I wouldn’t be eligible.

I think they didn’t make me VP because dickhead wants to hire one of his buddies.
Agreed.

If there's one thing I've learned during C-Level change-overs is they all have an agenda and they all have "their guys". If he asked to have InfoSec report to him, he did it for a reason....he has an agenda (hiring his friend/family/yes-man). Chances are your life is going to be hell from this new person who A. Doesn't know WTF they are doing or B. Does and is going to dictate and change everything with the program you built. Either way you're going to be ****ing miserable.

Get as much out of them as you can, salary + vested 401k match + whatever else you can take while you look for another gig.
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 08:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Sundance Kid V2 View Post
problem with this.. the new guy is the c-levels buddy. No matter what he won't be booted.
and then there's that. I'm wondering if the new guy is an IB1 visa holder, or something similar
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 09:20 PM   #25
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Clearly you haven’t sucked this dick heads cock yet.
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Old Feb 21, 2020, 10:50 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Cyko View Post
Apply for the VP? Wouldn’t happen. They promoted me to senior director knowing full well I wanted the VP gig because I wrote the damn job description for the VP role and put that in my EOY report for my development path. Plus, they only do one promotion max. Even if I were able I wouldn’t be eligible.

I think they didn’t make me VP because dickhead wants to hire one of his buddies.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize C-Level meant VP, never heard that term before (just googled it).. My apologies. However, a company that only does one promotion max and doesn't allow any advancement beyond that, is not a company to stay at except for the experience, and that is only if you need it. Get out there and find a better company/job and get the hell out of there.
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Last edited by NWR_Midnight : Feb 21, 2020 at 11:04 PM.
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Old Feb 22, 2020, 07:39 AM   #27
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Back in 2000, I started working at StorageTek.
In 2006, StorageTek was purchased by Sun Microsystems.
In 2009, Sun was purchased by Oracle.

Neither Sun nor Oracle ever asked how I felt about this.
Neither should you.

You have to balance a job you like, a COMPETITIVE salary and reasonable outlook.
You have to manage Cyko Inc. plain and simple.

So look for another job and switch when you have 2-3 offers to choose from.
Find the best job for you.

Having said this, please contemplate why you allowed yourself to
undervalue your skills for such a long amount of time.
This is not a balanced outlook on a job/career...
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Old Feb 22, 2020, 10:37 AM   #28
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cyko just chill and ride it out well you find another job. You will not have a problem finding one at all. Unless you NEED a vacation and even then just be like hey I need 2-3 weeks off to decompress after being a rockstar for the last year+ If they say no it just reaffirms you GTFOing to a new gig.
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Old Feb 22, 2020, 12:21 PM   #29
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Having said this, please contemplate why you allowed yourself to
undervalue your skills for such a long amount of time.
This is not a balanced outlook on a job/career...


I appreciate you looking out dude, but my brand is great. I’ve had offers from MS, Apple, Disney, etc. while I’ve been here.

Why did I stay here then? My team. Prior to dickhead coming along I would actually have fun at work (not all days, but more than not). I’ve had jobs which paid 1/2 a mil per year but the stress and lack of any enjoyment just isn’t worth it. What I look for in a gig nowadays is a) salary that will pay the bills, let me have a little fun, and save for retirement and b) a place I can go to, be appreciated, and enjoy what I’m doing.

I still have “a” at this gig, but “b” is going away. I’m down to 1/2 my team and very shortly am not going to be in charge of my program. The upside of reporting to my previous C-level was she left me the hell alone. The downside is she was a complete pushover and just let the new guy come in and dictate things. So, it’s time to go.

I’ll double my salary at the next place I land but that’s not my main “sticking point.” I will have to enjoy what I’ll be doing. Too many jobs out there in my line of work to stick around a place you no longer enjoy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozziebloke
I mean, yeah, sure, there's benefits to a shaved asshole. But get a little sweaty and try and blow a fart. It just sits there like a bubble. No hair to break the seal. Feels weird.



Alpha
| Mobo: MSI P6N-SLI | CPU: Intel C2D E6600 @ 3.2ghz | Memory: 4GB (4x1GB) G.Skill DDR2-800 | Video Card: EVGA NVIDIA 8800GTX | Hard Drive(s): 2xMaxtor 200GB | Sound: Onboard 7.1 HD | DVD Writer: LITE-ON LDW-451S | Case: Coolermaster Centurion 5 | PSU: OCZ GameXstream 700w | Mouse: Logitech MX1000 | Keyboard: Logitech Cordless Desktop | Mousepad: fUnc Surface 1030 | Headphones: Sennheiser HD 280 | Monitor: LG L1751S-SN 17" LCD | Scanner: Canon LiDe 35 | OS: Vista Home Premium |

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Old Feb 22, 2020, 12:27 PM   #30
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cyko just chill and ride it out well you find another job. You will not have a problem finding one at all. Unless you NEED a vacation and even then just be like hey I need 2-3 weeks off to decompress after being a rockstar for the last year+ If they say no it just reaffirms you GTFOing to a new gig.


That’s what I’m going to do. I literally go from work to gym to studying (new skills, upping my programming game, fun in OSCP labs since they added AD content recently, etc.) and have clocked 60+ hour weeks for far too long without any “cyko” time. It’s just, that’s how I’m built. I love this stuff - and I don’t mind putting in the time - I just want a little appreciation for all I bring to the table and for the effort I put in.

I wanted to go to Asian Disney but f that with the coronavirus. Wife mentioned Eurodisney, so maybe we’ll check that out
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozziebloke
I mean, yeah, sure, there's benefits to a shaved asshole. But get a little sweaty and try and blow a fart. It just sits there like a bubble. No hair to break the seal. Feels weird.



Alpha
| Mobo: MSI P6N-SLI | CPU: Intel C2D E6600 @ 3.2ghz | Memory: 4GB (4x1GB) G.Skill DDR2-800 | Video Card: EVGA NVIDIA 8800GTX | Hard Drive(s): 2xMaxtor 200GB | Sound: Onboard 7.1 HD | DVD Writer: LITE-ON LDW-451S | Case: Coolermaster Centurion 5 | PSU: OCZ GameXstream 700w | Mouse: Logitech MX1000 | Keyboard: Logitech Cordless Desktop | Mousepad: fUnc Surface 1030 | Headphones: Sennheiser HD 280 | Monitor: LG L1751S-SN 17" LCD | Scanner: Canon LiDe 35 | OS: Vista Home Premium |

Omega

| Mobo: Asus A8V S939 VIA K8T800 Pro | CPU: Athlon 64 X2 3800+ "Manchester" | Memory: 2GB (2x1GB) OCZ PC3200 Platinum | Video Card: BBA AIW X800 XT | Hard Drive(s): Maxtor 100GB + Maxtor 200GB + WD 120GB | Sound: SB Audigy 2 ZS | DVD Writer: LITE-ON LDW-451S | DVD Reader: Memorex Generic | Case: Antec Lifestyle Sonata II | PSU: Antec 450w SmartPower 2.0 | Mouse: Logitech MX1000 | Keyboard: Logitech Cordless Desktop | Mousepad: fUnc Surface 1030 | Headphones: Sennheiser HD 280 | Monitor: LG L1751S-SN 17" LCD | Scanner: Canon LiDe 35 | OS: Windows XP Media Center Edition |


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