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Smartphones, Tablets and Handheld Computing From Android, Symbian to Apple devices, this is the place for discussion and debate, whether it's smartphones, tablets or even gaming handhelds.

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Old Jul 30, 2013, 03:18 PM   #121
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Sazar
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Originally Posted by Athlon-pv View Post
Here is the problem hardware wise you need more to run WindowsRT then on Android. Now only Dell will support anything WindowsRT based.

Explain to me how this is good business , MS and Dell both have devices which use ARM and Dell has to pay MS licensing money , Dell wants to be competitive but pays $90 per unit to MS.

Dell can't compete with MS because MS doesn't have to pay the $90 for each device.

So you have an OS that will be expensive for anyone but MS, guess how many new hardware manufacturers will sign up for this deal ?

And it ends up with MS being the only one which uses WindowsRT on their own device. While others just use Android.

Did you see the financial statement where they took a hit on Surface for $900M?
Microsoft is putting up a nice sum of money to help Dell go private, who is to say Microsoft products won't be sold directly by Dell once this happens? That's another way to look at it

I guess we'll find out at the end of this week.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 06:58 AM   #122
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[spoiler]What evidence do you have for or against Metro? There are a number of people who are not happy with it, sure. But how many VALID reasons are there? Heck, look at Rage3D for example. There were a lot of threads denigrating the OS when it came out. And then there was a poll.
The fact that MS only made $853 million on these things in an eight month period. They spent *more* on advertising than they got back in revenue. They've also *written down* another $900 million.

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Those who used it didn't necessarily hate the OS, in fact the winning entry in the poll was "I think it's better than Win 7)

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33995600
Oh, so a voluntary poll on a pro-PC and tech website is going to indicate anything different? Jesus. That's so funny. Is that your proof that people love Metro? Bunch of tech dweebs on a forum?! Against the backdrop of declining PC sales? Consumers love Windows 8 so much they're holding onto their older machines...

Sorry, but poor sales (even shipments) are a bigger indicator against what a bunch of geeks say on a tech forum. People on tech forums tend to get very insular and start to see their own buying decisions as "the norm."

They said that no one would buy an iPad. That people would be crazy to buy them over netbooks. Netbooks are gone.

They said the lack of Flash would impact adoption of the iPad. Flash is yesterday's news. No one cared it's virtually gone.

They said the lack of built-in ports would impact iPad sales. People just shrugged and copy stuff over WiFi.

They said that Apple's lack of licensing it's software for third party OEM sales a-la Microsoft would be DOOM!


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You are conflating the issue. The interface of the product has little bearing on the rest of it. I also brought up the example of the iAudo. A fantastic set of products that is still better than pretty much everything else in the space, and yet it has a low market share.
Huh? Of course the interface plays A MAJOR role. Don't confuse this era with the 1990s where MS could push anything on the desktop and people didn't have a choice.

Well, you're also saying that Windows 8 is so superior and even the 10-15 minutes I played with it made me want to leave the store. I can be disregarded because I rarely use Windows; my life is dominated by OSX and OpenBSD. But when people aren't upgrading, you have to ask why? Is it because of Windows 8? Maybe. Or is it because the PC is no longer the centre of our digital lives? It's more of the latter, less of the former.

This is why Microsoft Windows is fading into irrelevancy.

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Originally Posted by Sazar View Post
If we are looking at things purely by market share, why does Apple continue to produce OSX?
It's also the basis for iOS (and vice-versa now).


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Microsoft has the fastest market share capture in both the tablet and smartphone marketplace currently. The facts do not agree with your emotions.
And here is the core of the issue.

"Marketshare reports"

Of late, there have been two stellar example of these analyst reports. The first was a claim made that Samsung made more profit than Apple last quarter. The analysis was a total joke but it was picked up by major news outlets like Business Insider and Huffington Post.

If you think "marketshare" values are "facts", boy you are totally f**kin' nuts. What they basically do is take published revenue numbers required by securities law, portion it out in whatever manner they think is appropriate, then estimate by doing division.

The other example was another "marketshare" report from Japan, that said the Nexus 7 was outselling the iPad. The report failed to account for direct sales by Apple through their website and stores which is a GLARING omission. It's a grade school error.

Calculated marketshare by analysts is not a *fact*. It's even a stretch to call it an estimate. It's more like a guess. It can't properly be calculated which is why it makes more sense to rely with what Warren Buffet does, and that's look around.

Viewing "marketshare" reports as fact clearly shows people don't know what's in that particular sausage recipe...



Yes, and it won't be the last. The better product doesn't always win.


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Originally Posted by Sazar View Post
According to whom? A niche consumption device with little practical use such as the iPad has a mass market appeal. Why should something that is more powerful, requires less compromises, and costs the same or less while having more features not have mass market appeal?
Again, people on tech forums see themselves as representative of the mass consumer. And if the mass consumer dares step away from the received wisdom of the computing gods and their associated priesthood, they are labelled dumbasses and clueless.


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Bull. ****.
Really? You want to argue about the 30pin connector history and design is bullshit? You could not load music or video onto an iPod by target disk mode. One *had* to at least go through iTunes. Why would Apple cripple that functionality? Because Phil Schiller explained during a quarterly conference call. The one right after the introduction of Lightening connector.

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Originally Posted by Sazar View Post
Some people will always freak out. Many other manufacturers also offered a no floppy option. It saved customer's money. But those who needed floppies could still order a system with it.
Just as iPad customers who may need a USB adapter could buy one. Just like how MacBook Air users who need a drive and don't like the Remote Drive system can buy one.

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Originally Posted by Sazar View Post
How about a little history regarding Firewire? How's all those Lightning devices peripherals doing right now?
What peripherals? >< What are you going to really connect? How many people are really going to be connecting
a) USB drives and card readers in an era of WiFi, and b) people who will use these for digital projectors for presentations? Again, why add functionality and extra cost for a tiny minority?

And please, spare us the "I use it all the time" defense, because we're dealing with a very successful company that seem to defy predictions made by people on tech boards all the time.

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Originally Posted by Sazar View Post
Android rules the roost globally. Apple has their core group. Microsoft has the fastest growth in those segments.
Fastest writedowns? Yeah, they're leading in that department.

Windows will never be mass market, simply because Apple will never use it and tablet manufacturers will go with the lower-cost (*cough* no cost *cough*) Android so long as Google supports it.

This isn't the 1990s where it was Symbian, Palm and Windows Mobile, and where WM was adopted by makers that didn't have their own in-house system and didn't want to lease from Symbian.

Without the ability to leverage monopoly, Microsoft can't operate. And that will never change until they have a serious top-down change in upper management who've been able to hide their own incompetence by using monopoly status to hide behind.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 07:49 AM   #123
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Microsoft is putting up a nice sum of money to help Dell go private, who is to say Microsoft products won't be sold directly by Dell once this happens? That's another way to look at it

I guess we'll find out at the end of this week.
... because Microsoft won't risk the ire of all the other OEMs who are seeing declines in their own Windows-based product sales. They made a bit of a risk when it came out with their own branded Surface Pro.

Microsoft was able to do this to it's PlayForSure partners when it brought out the Zune, but it's P4S partners pretty much left the market anyways.

This time, though, people like HP and Toshiba have *not* left the desktop/notebook market.

This situation is similar in many way to the Google-branded Android products. The biggest reason I can think of why Google could more easily get away is because Google wasn't charging OEMs for Android use.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 11:07 AM   #124
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Apples recent history isn't about great hardware, or proper decisions about what people need for hardware. Its about great marketing. So lets not get into a debate about what people want/need for hardware in a tablet debate.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 11:54 AM   #125
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...there's not one Windows machine in my household. I've been doing great without. Windows is no longer needed.
My grandmother doesn't have a computer, smart phone, or tablet in her house.

Computers are no longer needed.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 01:33 PM   #126
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My grandmother doesn't have a computer, smart phone, or tablet in her house.

Computers are no longer needed.
...talk about reaching.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 01:35 PM   #127
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...talk about reaching.
Same could certainly be said for your original claim.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 01:59 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Elysian View Post
Same could certainly be said for your original claim.
Hardly. All I showed was that my computing needs are met without any Windows device/software. Several years strong.

What he said was the computers in general are not needed.

Clearly, he's reaching.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 01:59 PM   #129
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Apples recent history isn't about great hardware, or proper decisions about what people need for hardware. Its about great marketing. So lets not get into a debate about what people want/need for hardware in a tablet debate.
Samsung spent more on marketing than Apple last year.

Care to try again?

Oh, and Daniel Eran Dilger is really on fire of late, especially with Strategic Analytics and all these "marketshare" numbers.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/...s-ipad-history

Quote:
The company's release also stated that, "despite high expectations for companies like Amazon, Samsung, Acer and Asus, the Android community has yet to make a serious dent in Apple’s dominance of the tablet market," accounting for just 29.3 percent of all tablets shipped.

One year later, Strategy Analytics' retroactively-reported 11.2 million White Box Tablets for the year-ago quarter changed all that doom and gloom for Android. Now, the "global total (incl. White Box)" for Q2 2012 says Apple's iPad had a 47.2 percent share of the tablet market, while Android enjoyed a majority share of 51.4 percent.
.
.
.
It's almost as if the tablet market had been infected with an alien host that gestated for a quarter and then exploded into a completely different animal. And then, just to be safe, traveled back in time to infect its previous, year-ago self so as not to mess up the time continuum. That makes just as much sense as a parallel market for White Box Tablets you can choose to optionally count as part of the tablet market, or not, depending on what share you want Apple to have.
Whoever is paying SA to write this stuff needs to demand their money back immediately. Unless it's Samsung moving away from paying students.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 02:10 PM   #130
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I rarely use Windows; my life is dominated by OSX and OpenBSD.
So you saying your life is dominated by desktop OSes for PCs?

Not mobile OSes?
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 02:18 PM   #131
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Samsung spent more on marketing than Apple last year.

Care to try again?
And what? Where does it say that marketing budget was behind their tablets? Because I bet most of it was behind their phones, which are doing great.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 02:20 PM   #132
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And what? Where does it say that Marketing budget was behind their tablets? Because I bet most of it was behind their Phones, which are doing great.
Oh, that wasn't a link to that. Just discussions on how f**ked up these tablet marketshare studies are.

Here's the info if you don't want to do a simple Google lookup:
http://www.inquisitr.com/570148/sams...e-ads-in-2012/
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 03:15 PM   #133
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My mistake. Still, just because Samsung spent more, doesn't mean it was as effective as Apples marketing. Having said that however, Samsung phones are doing quiet well.

Still doesn't help that RT started off stumbling. Then again, I think most people would agree that RT lunched a little half baked. It's much better now, but turning that tide is hard.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 03:59 PM   #134
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Those stupid and annoying Surface commercials (the ones that try to put iPad in a bad light) aren't helping any. Seriously? You're going to put the best selling tablet device next to yours and try to say it's bad because it doesn't take an SD Card? LOL.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 04:15 PM   #135
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Still doesn't help that RT started off stumbling. Then again, I think most people would agree that RT lunched a little half baked. It's much better now, but turning that tide is hard.
Stumbling isn't the word I'd use.

However, at least Microsoft didn't Xerox the interface so brazenly like Google and Samsung did. They should at least get Brownie points for trying something different.
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Old Aug 1, 2013, 06:55 AM   #136
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... because Microsoft won't risk the ire of all the other OEMs who are seeing declines in their own Windows-based product sales. They made a bit of a risk when it came out with their own branded Surface Pro.
This has nothing to do with what I said.
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Old Aug 1, 2013, 07:09 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by HAL10000 View Post
Samsung spent more on marketing than Apple last year.

Care to try again?

Oh, and Daniel Eran Dilger is really on fire of late, especially with Strategic Analytics and all these "marketshare" numbers.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/...s-ipad-history

Whoever is paying SA to write this stuff needs to demand their money back immediately. Unless it's Samsung moving away from paying students.
Interestingly enough, it seems that many have no problems insinuating web traffic numbers to heavily favor one product or the other, when it clearly relates to traffic received by that particular site or that particular network. So Tim Cook has no problems making claims based on this:

To determine the distribution of Web usage among tablet devices for the month of June 2013, Chitika Insights sampled tens of millions of U.S. and Canadian tablet online ad impressions running through the Chitika Ad Network.


I may be mistaken, but doesn't Google generate a couple of dollars from it's own ad network? So how accurate are these numbers Hal? Care to break it down for us?

Apple Insider seems to be a bang-up job sleuthing, I am absolutely positive they'll be able to speak to this, right? It's not like AI themselves are taking these numbers at face value, while diving deep into anything not favorable to Apple.

Right?
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Old Aug 1, 2013, 07:15 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
Hardly. All I showed was that my computing needs are met without any Windows device/software. Several years strong.

What he said was the computers in general are not needed.

Clearly, he's reaching.
Your computing needs don't represent everyone else's.

"Windows is no longer needed" sounds like a global statement.
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Old Aug 1, 2013, 08:08 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by swingline View Post
My grandmother doesn't have a computer, smart phone, or tablet in her house.

Computers are no longer needed.
I am not sure I would go quite so far for my own usage, but my grandmother (the only remaining grand parent ) is in the same boat. She couldn't give 2 shits about a computer in her life today

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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
Hardly. All I showed was that my computing needs are met without any Windows device/software. Several years strong.

What he said was the computers in general are not needed.

Clearly, he's reaching.
To each their own. And he is presenting a scenario where someone elses needs are met without the devices you and I may use. It's a good example.

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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
Those stupid and annoying Surface commercials (the ones that try to put iPad in a bad light) aren't helping any. Seriously? You're going to put the best selling tablet device next to yours and try to say it's bad because it doesn't take an SD Card? LOL.
It's a comparison, and they are accurate. You get more features and benefits, at a lower cost. Or are you trying to suggest that people should just blindly pay more for a device which clearly does a lot less?

For the record, none of the tablet commercials are more annoying than the daft Apple ones with the "designed in California" ending. Right now, they are challenging the Sarah McLachlan animal abuse ones for most grating commercials on tele.

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Old Aug 1, 2013, 08:48 AM   #140
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I am not sure I would go quite so far for my own usage, but my grandmother (the only remaining grand parent ) is in the same boat. She couldn't give 2 shits about a computer in her life today



To each their own. And he is presenting a scenario where someone elses needs are met without the devices you and I may use. It's a good example.



It's a comparison, and they are accurate. You get more features and benefits, at a lower cost. Or are you trying to suggest that people should just blindly pay more for a device which clearly does a lot less?

For the record, none of the tablet commercials are more annoying than the daft Apple ones with the "designed in California" ending. Right now, they are challenging the Sarah McLachlan animal abuse ones for most grating commercials on tele.
How does an iPad do alot less? Because it lacks an SD card slot? That doesn't prevent you from doing "alot less". It prevents you from adding storage.

iPad is much more functional and does alot more from the mere fact that it has more apps to get things done with.

If anything, the commericals simply point how that WinTablets have no Siri-like offering, thus why they have to use her voice.

But hey, the proof is in the sales numbers...
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Old Aug 1, 2013, 09:33 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
How does an iPad do alot less? Because it lacks an SD card slot? That doesn't prevent you from doing "alot less". It prevents you from adding storage.

iPad is much more functional and does alot more from the mere fact that it has more apps to get things done with.

If anything, the commericals simply point how that WinTablets have no Siri-like offering, thus why they have to use her voice.

But hey, the proof is in the sales numbers...

That's not entirely accurate and the proof isn't the sales numbers. They are trying to pitch a product that people don't know about. You don't have instant success out of thin air. Anyone who's worked with Siri can understand the flaws pointed out in MSFT commericals.
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Old Aug 1, 2013, 09:40 AM   #142
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How does an iPad do alot less? Because it lacks an SD card slot? That doesn't prevent you from doing "alot less". It prevents you from adding storage.
It's a functionality thing. You don't have to buy adapters for everything on other devices as you do on an iPad.

$499 to start, end up at close to a thousand with all the add-ons. It's ridiculous.

Quote:
iPad is much more functional
No, it isn't.

Quote:
and does alot more from the mere fact that it has more apps to get things done with.
The ONLY reason the i-products, such as the phone and tablet, sell, is because of the app-store. The developers are the sole reason Apple has the marketshare it does. It still has some of the best developed apps in the store.

I have never said otherwise about the Apple ecosystem.

Regarding RT, Microsoft does have it's work cut-out for it, but it has plenty of top tier apps available and many others on their way. A recent announcement indicated that all developers of note (big and small) were working on bringing products to the Windows store. Not a question of if, but when.

Quote:
If anything, the commericals simply point how that WinTablets have no Siri-like offering, thus why they have to use her voice.
There are various speech offerings available for Windows tablets. I am assuming that eventually the version on WP8 will find it's way to the tablet and other offerings. Remember, Siri wasn't available day 1, and in fact Apple bought an excellent app, gimped it and has sold it as an offering since. Siri is also not the deal-breaker product.

Quote:
But hey, the proof is in the sales numbers...
I agree, Android is no.1, Google sure knows what it's doing.
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Old Aug 1, 2013, 09:50 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Sazar View Post
It's a functionality thing. You don't have to buy adapters for everything on other devices as you do on an iPad.

$499 to start, end up at close to a thousand with all the add-ons. It's ridiculous.



No, it isn't.



The ONLY reason the i-products, such as the phone and tablet, sell, is because of the app-store. The developers are the sole reason Apple has the marketshare it does. It still has some of the best developed apps in the store.

I have never said otherwise about the Apple ecosystem.

Regarding RT, Microsoft does have it's work cut-out for it, but it has plenty of top tier apps available and many others on their way. A recent announcement indicated that all developers of note (big and small) were working on bringing products to the Windows store. Not a question of if, but when.



There are various speech offerings available for Windows tablets. I am assuming that eventually the version on WP8 will find it's way to the tablet and other offerings. Remember, Siri wasn't available day 1, and in fact Apple bought an excellent app, gimped it and has sold it as an offering since. Siri is also not the deal-breaker product.



I agree, Android is no.1, Google sure knows what it's doing.
Thousnads of dollars? Don't be ridiculous. I've never spend more than the iPad itself and a smartcover. Apps take care of pretty much everything, wirelessly.

Yes. Yes, it is more functional. Windows tablets are missing apps. Period.

Hence, why the App Store makes the iPad the better buy.

With Windows 8 tablets so far behind, not having a Siri/Google speech type of offering just makes it even more a "no sale". Yes, it's a deal breaker. I use Siri and Google speech all of the time.

Anything Windows Mobile is simply not a competitor to the iOS/Android duopoly.
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Old Aug 1, 2013, 09:56 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
Thousnads of dollars?
Never said that. Re-read.

Quote:
Yes. Yes, it is more functional. Windows tablets are missing apps. Period.
Note, I separated the two. The device itself does a lot less.

Quote:
Hence, why the App Store makes the iPad the better buy.
It is a REASON to buy an iPad, for certain apps. No more, no less.

Things like a full office experience cannot be had, AFAIK, on an iPad, and multi-tasking is a bitch.

Quote:
With Windows 8 tablets so far behind, not having a Siri/Google speech type of offering just makes it even more a "no sale". Yes, it's a deal breaker. I use Siri and Google speech all of the time.
Good for you. I never used Siri, and I barely use speech on my phone except when driving (responding to texts if super urgent).

Quote:
Anything Windows Mobile is simply not a competitor to the iOS/Android duopoly.
It's the fastest growing product on the market in terms of market share percentage. And the good news for MS is, they make plenty of cash off of Android sales so they can afford to try a few things with RT.
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Old Aug 1, 2013, 02:47 PM   #145
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I don't know if have anyone posted this link before or not.

SemiAccurate: Microsoft drove the bus off the cliff, now it tries to speed up
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Old Aug 1, 2013, 03:03 PM   #146
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I don't know if have anyone posted this link before or not.

SemiAccurate: Microsoft drove the bus off the cliff, now it tries to speed up
Oh Charlie
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Old Aug 2, 2013, 10:33 PM   #147
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Siri (and Google Now) work great IMO. The tech has really matured, and is extremely useful for hands free operation. Quick directions, hands free calling, finding restaurants/gas stations, etc in vicinity, getting sports scores, times of games etc. I really hope Apple & Google opens up API to developers to allow voice functionality to be used in 3rd party apps.
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 10:25 AM   #148
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Surface RT usage skyrocket

With the price drop the Surface RT looks interesting, I tried it and absolutely love it's build quality. I don't mind it lacks in apps, I.E and Flash is the most I going to do with it, plus the full Office apps is good for my office work. After watching the video below I decided I gonna buy it

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Old Aug 28, 2013, 02:33 PM   #149
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Surface RT usage skyrocket

With the price drop the Surface RT looks interesting, I tried it and absolutely love it's build quality. I don't mind it lacks in apps, I.E and Flash is the most I going to do with it, plus the full Office apps is good for my office work. After watching the video below I decided I gonna buy it

There is also quiet the little burbling hack community for WinRT. Jail break the OS and you can run more desktop apps, especially using an X86 emulator.
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 02:36 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypsee View Post
Surface RT usage skyrocket
With the price drop the Surface RT looks interesting, I tried it and absolutely love it's build quality. I don't mind it lacks in apps, I.E and Flash is the most I going to do with it, plus the full Office apps is good for my office work. After watching the video below I decided I gonna buy it
Umm does surface RT have desktop mode also? Isn't that a Surface PRO feature only?
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