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Old Aug 27, 2012, 09:16 AM   #61
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Did LG ever sue apple over the iphone design. I know I read a while ago they were considering it

http://macdailynews.com/2007/01/16/l..._similarities/
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 10:52 AM   #62
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Except that's what Apple, Samsung, the courts and the patent system care about. Patents, timelines, jury verdicts, etc... That's what this is all about.
Sure they care about that because it's their work and/or business.
For me as a spectator of this trial, the most important factor is the end result and not how they got there. And this verdict is what I expected because for me it couldn't be more clearer that Samsung's earliest Galaxy models were clones.
It's like a murder case with 10 on-site witnesses.

Did you guys really expect Samsung would come out of this unharmed?


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Originally Posted by ViN86 View Post
When did $1 billion become merely a "penalty"?
That's probably a language issue here What would be the correct term, "fine"?
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 10:56 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by slaWter View Post
That's probably a language issue here What would be the correct term, "fine"?
Shrike hit the nail on the head. Punitive is the proper term for it.

Do they even realize how much $1 billion is? That's practically stating that almost every device Samsung sells is stolen from Apple.

Just wait, the "verdict" will be thrown out, or at least cut to a small fraction of the current "fine".
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 11:01 AM   #64
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Shrike hit the nail on the head. Punitive is the proper term for it.

Do they even realize how much $1 billion is? That's practically stating that almost every device Samsung sells is stolen from Apple.

Just wait, the verdict will be thrown out.
Well, those are multi-billion companies, you're not going to hurt them with a few millions.

I would have liked to see a higher amount though, like I said before.
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 11:13 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by slaWter View Post
Well, those are multi-billion companies, you're not going to hurt them with a few millions.

I would have liked to see a higher amount though, like I said before.
And that, unfortunately, is exactly where you and the jury are WRONG.

Within the context of this case and the instructions given to the jury, handing out a financial amount that is "punitive" or punishing is directly contrary to the instructions given. There was no room for interpretation, the orders were very clear. Find an amount that compensates Apple for lost revenues ONLY. It was explicit that the amount NOT be punitive in nature. Disregarding this direction (among others) makes this only more of a farce trial than it already was.

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Sure they care about that because it's their work and/or business.
For me as a spectator of this trial, the most important factor is the end result and not how they got there. And this verdict is what I expected because for me it couldn't be more clearer that Samsung's earliest Galaxy models were clones.
It's like a murder case with 10 on-site witnesses.

Did you guys really expect Samsung would come out of this unharmed?

That's probably a language issue here What would be the correct term, "fine"?
Are you referring to the software patents or the trade dress? Should Apple be found liable for all iPhones sold if found guilty of trade dress infringement on the LG Prada phone or other prior art? Unfortunately for Samsung much of this evidence for prior art to address the trade dress claim was disallowed. What's good for Apple, in this trial, was not allowed for Samsung.

Let's take this thought experiment just a step further. SlaWter in your mind, should any and all specific features or functionality, in the world of software, be patentable? I'd like to apply logic such as "non-obvious" to help illustrate my point but unfortunately the patents such as bounce-back were enforced here and many in the software development world would consider those pretty obvious.

So my question is, if I have something specific, software-wise, should I be allowed to patent it and prevent others from doing something similar? In your mind, would this HELP or HURT the software industry?
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 11:14 AM   #66
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Well, those are multi-billion companies, you're not going to hurt them with a few millions.

I would have liked to see a higher amount though, like I said before.
That's because you're biased.

I thought Apple was reasonable with licensing their patents. Isn't the price supposed to be no more than half of one cent per infringing device?
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 11:25 AM   #67
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Let's take this thought experiment just a step further. SlaWter in your mind, should any and all specific features or functionality, in the world of software, be patentable? I'd like to apply logic such as "non-obvious" to help illustrate my point but unfortunately the patents such as bounce-back were enforced here and many in the software development world would consider those pretty obvious.

So my question is, if I have something specific, software-wise, should I be allowed to patent it and prevent others from doing something similar? In your mind, would this HELP or HURT the software industry?
Patents in the software world are ok in my opinion. If there are two kinds of patents, the ones you can license and the ones that are free to use because they're too general.

For example:
-a complex algorithm used in specialized fields could be a patent you can license to others.
-a general communication protocol or some well-known software patterns could be patented but free to use for the rest of the industry.

And GUI related software that makes a product unique and/or easily identifiable should fall under the first category. However, that stuff shouldn't be copied in the first place if a product wants to be easily recognizable.


I can't answer your other questions because I don't understand those legal terms in English
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 11:33 AM   #68
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Such is Capitalism I guess
In some distorted and perverted interpretation only could it truly be considered actual capitalism at this point.
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 11:35 AM   #69
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Patents in the software world are ok in my opinion. If there are two kinds of patents, the ones you can license and the ones that are free to use because they're too general.

For example:
-a complex algorithm used in specialized fields could be a patent you can license to others.
-a general communication protocol or some well-known software patterns could be patented but free to use for the rest of the industry.

And GUI related software that makes a product unique and/or easily identifiable should fall under the first category. However, that stuff shouldn't be copied in the first place if a product wants to be easily recognizable.


I can't answer your other questions because I don't understand those legal terms in English
But therein lies the problem. In the software world, what you're patenting is an arrangement of "code" that produces a desirable result. This is like saying I want to patent a window that rolls down, at the push of a button, because it produces an effect.

The problem with this, in the software world, is that much of this is too gray an area. Tap-to-zoom and bounce-back were enforced here. Those were patented because they are intuitive human-machine gestures that are easy to use because the gestures feel natural. Dare I say... the gestures feel natural based in no small part on the interaction being... obvious?

If we permit a software landscape, unlike ANY other industry, where specific generalized and broad implementations can be patented, then we're going to regret it. Putting 4 wheels on a car... Novel at the time (there were 3 wheel approaches before) so why can't others "innovate" and find unique combinations of wheels and not infringe? Putting wings on an airplane... where's the line between obvious and non-obvious?

Look at video games and tell me that industry would be, where it is today, if an "open world" game came first like GTA and then every subsequent game was shut down because they couldn't license the concept or they infringed and got an injunction. Good bye Infamous, Prototype, Skyrim, Saints Row, etc... What's that? You invented a software implementation that calculates the effects of gravity on an object? Okay great, **** you football games, anything requiring a player stay on the ground, or Angry Birds. Mario bagged this patent first so either pay for it under FRAND or piss off.

I'm being vitriolic and a bit facetious here because I hate the idea of patenting specific software implementations. Stealing actual code used? Sure absolutely go ahead and light that bastard up. But designing, developing and implementing something like "bounce back" because it's a natural list implementation gesture that's intuitive, then having to ... oh **** ... comment that crap right out of your code because it turns out Apple owns it and is not afraid to sue the piss out of you for using it. That's ****ed up and will only hurt the industry.
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 11:36 AM   #70
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For example:
-a complex algorithm used in specialized fields could be a patent you can license to others.
I agree using the exact same alogrithm needs to be licensed, but what happens if I observe how your algorithm works, then create my own? Do I have to pay royalties?
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 11:43 AM   #71
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I agree using the exact same alogrithm needs to be licensed, but what happens if I observe how your algorithm works, then create my own? Do I have to pay royalties?
Even worse, what if the patent is based on a general user interaction gesture, based on a natural feeling method of interacting with your software. Shouldn't this natural feeling implementation fail the "non-obvious" test of applying for a patent?
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 11:45 AM   #72
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I don't understand how some of you can even entertain responses to slaWter. It's like talking to a child who will only respond with "Uh uhhhh.." with no form of reason for justification. So when you keep rebuking his arguments, you are kind of matching Einstein's definition of insanity, which is repeating the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. I'd no more entertain his thoughts than I would spend time talking to a wall. Block his ignorant ass and be done with it. That's what I did.
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 11:50 AM   #73
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I don't understand how some of you can even entertain responses to slaWter. It's like talking to a child who will only respond with "Uh uhhhh.." with no form of reason for justification. So when you keep rebuking his arguments, you are kind of matching Einstein's definition of insanity, which is repeating the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. I'd no more entertain his thoughts than I would spend time talking to a wall. Block his ignorant ass and be done with it. That's what I did.
I guess I hold out hope that someday even the most stubborn might come around. I'm willing to entertain the notion that if someone is making a coherent argument, that it's worth rebuking for the sake of rebuttal. Who knows maybe at some point I'll get knocked off my feet by a response that clicks and makes me more fully understand the "other side" in topics like this. I still largely have a disconnect, not just with my ability to agree, but with even understanding where arguments such as his come from. I consider moments like this to be a bit of a learning experience, even if I somewhat agree that I doubt the exchange is making any lasting effects. Not to mention I'd hate it if everyone just agreed with me, at least this gives me an outlet for some of my arguments. SlaWter's statements seem to echo many I've seen stated elsewhere, so it's not isolated to just him.

Back to the topic at hand...

My biggest complaint about being able to patent software, in general, is that it's the mechanism whereby companies with money can leverage financial position to influence the success of software, in any industry or market, and earn more money. It's like EA buying a licensing deal with NFL to exclusivity on producing an NFL game. Money there, influenced the software industry, to allow EA to lock up the rights to make MORE money.

Software should influence money; successful, robust, effective software design should drive revenues. NOT the other way around. Everything else in the world revolves around money making more money. For ****'s sake, please don't let the software industry follow this same pattern of creating a legal framework that protect's a company's finances and allows for the consolidation of development and provides for narrow definitions and frameworks in which money gets concentrated into fewer contributors because they're the only parties allowed to generate revenues.
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 11:56 AM   #74
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I'm being vitriolic and a bit facetious here because I hate the idea of patenting specific software implementations. Stealing actual code used? Sure absolutely go ahead and light that bastard up. But designing, developing and implementing something like "bounce back" because it's a natural list implementation gesture that's intuitive, then having to ... oh **** ... comment that crap right out of your code because it turns out Apple owns it and is not afraid to sue the piss out of you for using it. That's ****ed up and will only hurt the industry.
The suing does not have to be involved at all. It could all be done by paying licensing fees.

I think there are a lot of things in our daily lives that seem so logical and obvious but someone had the idea for it and makes money with it thanks to license fees. Or has a market-exclusive situation on that "thing".

A lot of those things could be done slightly different as well, similar to shifting lines of code around in a software solution, to get a similar result. And sometimes those copied solutions will get in legal trouble. Those type of patents work in the "hardware" world. Why not in the software world...

In this case, the whole situation got out of hand. But it's understandable when a company wants to protect its products and the other one won't agree to pay license fees. It's certainly not Apple's fault it got this far. And Samsung has to pay the price for it now. I think the licensing fees would have been cheaper.
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 12:09 PM   #75
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The suing does not have to be involved at all. It could all be done by paying licensing fees.

I think there are a lot of things in our daily lives that seem so logical and obvious but someone had the idea for it and makes money with it thanks to license fees. Or has a market-exclusive situation on that "thing".

A lot of those things could be done slightly different as well, similar to shifting lines of code around in a software solution, to get a similar result. And sometimes those copied solutions will get in legal trouble. Those type of patents work in the "hardware" world. Why not in the software world...

In this case, the whole situation got out of hand. But it's understandable when a company wants to protect its products and the other one won't agree to pay license fees. It's certainly not Apple's fault it got this far. And Samsung has to pay the price for it now. I think the licensing fees would have been cheaper.
The fees to license things such as "bounce back" or "tap to zoom" should not exist in the first place. Shifting lines of code around doesn't even make sense. It isn't the code that was patented, it was the effect.

Apple's patent '381 describes the effect of scrolling to the end of the list, allowing the last list item to scroll along with the finger gesture and inserting some "white space" at the end of the list to indicate no further scrolling is possible as no new information can be populated. This is so very general and what I'd consider "obvious" that any number of software development methodologies could land at this same result without ever even glancing at an iPhone or any iOS device at all. This isn't an example of copy/past coding. This is an example of taking a natural user gesture, patenting it (not the underlying code) then suing anyone who lands at this natural gesture by any other means.

The implication, even from a licensing perspective, is that you can now develop an app or code a program, then have to spend 6 months (possibly longer) going through everything your app does, looks, feels, behaves, and then seek out patent holders so you can license the **** out of your app. It's bullshit and ludicrous and only serves to make those with money (i.e. Apple) richer by now requiring everyone pay them to do what they should be able to do, on their own, in the first place.

SlaWter to be clear, if this behavior is allowed & even encouraged, via legal results like this, it will absolutely **** the software industry over.
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 01:11 PM   #76
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The fees to license things such as "bounce back" or "tap to zoom" should not exist in the first place. Shifting lines of code around doesn't even make sense. It isn't the code that was patented, it was the effect.

Apple's patent '381 describes the effect of scrolling to the end of the list, allowing the last list item to scroll along with the finger gesture and inserting some "white space" at the end of the list to indicate no further scrolling is possible as no new information can be populated. This is so very general and what I'd consider "obvious" that any number of software development methodologies could land at this same result without ever even glancing at an iPhone or any iOS device at all. This isn't an example of copy/past coding. This is an example of taking a natural user gesture, patenting it (not the underlying code) then suing anyone who lands at this natural gesture by any other means.

The implication, even from a licensing perspective, is that you can now develop an app or code a program, then have to spend 6 months (possibly longer) going through everything your app does, looks, feels, behaves, and then seek out patent holders so you can license the **** out of your app. It's bullshit and ludicrous and only serves to make those with money (i.e. Apple) richer by now requiring everyone pay them to do what they should be able to do, on their own, in the first place.

SlaWter to be clear, if this behavior is allowed & even encouraged, via legal results like this, it will absolutely **** the software industry over.
I understand what you mean and I agree that this decision might have a big impact.

But I think wanting to patent these "look and feel" elements in understandable. Validating/Granting those patents is another story though. But if you have the patents, you're going to use them no doubt.

You're right, it was the effect and not the code that was patented.
But that's what I was trying to say with my comparison to the hardware world. You could implement/craft certain aspects of a thing differently (<=> shifting lines of code) but get in legal trouble regardless.

The sudden focus on software patents in this area happened because of the touchscreen. Prior to that, other input devices and methods were also patented. For example that mouse-pointer/cursor in the middle of laptop keyboards. I'm no expert but patenting hardware input devices and methods was common I think.
Since the touchscreen, most of the input methods of a cell phone are now gesture based and those are done in software. Apple knew that they had something big on their hands and they had enough experience from the Mac/Windows world to know that it'll be important to protect those input methods as well, even though they're now software implementations. Same goes for the look and feel and design. Just because something is obvious now doesn't mean that there wasn't a substantial R&D process going on.
There certainly was a transition towards software input methods but the reason behind the patenting of input methods is the same. And I think it's understandable when a company wants to protect that.

I think we both have made our opinions clear by now. I respect your opinion but if you can't understand my point of view, so be it.
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 01:41 PM   #77
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I understand what you mean and I agree that this decision might have a big impact.

But I think wanting to patent these "look and feel" elements in understandable. Validating/Granting those patents is another story though. But if you have the patents, you're going to use them no doubt.

You're right, it was the effect and not the code that was patented.
But that's what I was trying to say with my comparison to the hardware world. You could implement/craft certain aspects of a thing differently (<=> shifting lines of code) but get in legal trouble regardless.

The sudden focus on software patents in this area happened because of the touchscreen. Prior to that, other input devices and methods were also patented. For example that mouse-pointer/cursor in the middle of laptop keyboards. I'm no expert but patenting hardware input devices and methods was common I think.
Since the touchscreen, most of the input methods of a cell phone are now gesture based and those are done in software. Apple knew that they had something big on their hands and they had enough experience from the Mac/Windows world to know that it'll be important to protect those input methods as well, even though they're now software implementations. Same goes for the look and feel and design. Just because something is obvious now doesn't mean that there wasn't a substantial R&D process going on.
There certainly was a transition towards software input methods but the reason behind the patenting of input methods is the same. And I think it's understandable when a company wants to protect that.

I think we both have made our opinions clear by now. I respect your opinion but if you can't understand my point of view, so be it.
I expect that you're right and that, in this case, you and I will have to agree to disagree.
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 01:46 PM   #78
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Old Aug 27, 2012, 06:39 PM   #79
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I don't understand how some of you can even entertain responses to slaWter. It's like talking to a child who will only respond with "Uh uhhhh.." with no form of reason for justification. So when you keep rebuking his arguments, you are kind of matching Einstein's definition of insanity, which is repeating the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. I'd no more entertain his thoughts than I would spend time talking to a wall. Block his ignorant ass and be done with it. That's what I did.
Risto, he has a different opinion.

If he was trolling, it would be a different matter but he genuinely has a viewpoint that simply is not the same as some other folks. You can't hate someone for that. There are plenty of folks who deliberately troll, Slawter has been consistent in his views.

You can block him if you will but understand that he actually contributes in other parts of the forums and is a decent chap all around

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But I think wanting to patent these "look and feel" elements in understandable. Validating/Granting those patents is another story though. But if you have the patents, you're going to use them no doubt.
Therein lies part of the issue. Many of the gestures and other items can be seen demonstrated on plenty of prior art before the iPhone came out. This is why prior art is so important. You should not be able to patent something that already existed. That and conceptual ideas that are obvious (the bounce effect for example, the pull to refresh idea that twitter came up with and others).

Think about Minority report, it came out in 2002, lots of concepts and gestures were introduced there that we see employed in modern day devices. Platforms such as TED also introduce the same kind of things.

Quote:
You're right, it was the effect and not the code that was patented.
But that's what I was trying to say with my comparison to the hardware world. You could implement/craft certain aspects of a thing differently (<=> shifting lines of code) but get in legal trouble regardless.
Things like that need to be reviewed before patents are granted simply because of how broad they are in their scope and the very obvious patent trolling that is on-going.

Quote:
The sudden focus on software patents in this area happened because of the touchscreen. Prior to that, other input devices and methods were also patented. For example that mouse-pointer/cursor in the middle of laptop keyboards. I'm no expert but patenting hardware input devices and methods was common I think.
Common or not, you should not be able to patent prior art. How can you possibly be for this kind of behavior when it is so clearly wrong.

Quote:
Since the touchscreen, most of the input methods of a cell phone are now gesture based and those are done in software. Apple knew that they had something big on their hands and they had enough experience from the Mac/Windows world to know that it'll be important to protect those input methods as well, even though they're now software implementations. Same goes for the look and feel and design. Just because something is obvious now doesn't mean that there wasn't a substantial R&D process going on.
There certainly was a transition towards software input methods but the reason behind the patenting of input methods is the same. And I think it's understandable when a company wants to protect that.

I think we both have made our opinions clear by now. I respect your opinion but if you can't understand my point of view, so be it.
You are trying to justify patent trolling and disregard prior art from decades before Apple decide to apply for their stuff. I cannot understand how you can possibly support this.

An example of prior art that includes a number of the gestures and concepts (including pinch to zoom) Apple has patented can be seen in this lovely video. Look around the 4:30 mark to see the pinch to zoom concept. The video is from 1988.



Another video from early 2000's. Plenty of similar gestures, and alternate ones we don't use now. But since we're talking concepts, I think you'll get what I mean.



It is long, yes, but it underscores just how broken our patent system is and how Koh hampered Samsung's defense by discarding a number of prior art examples.

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Old Aug 28, 2012, 08:01 AM   #80
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Intresting watch.. kinda long

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Old Aug 28, 2012, 09:11 AM   #81
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Old Aug 28, 2012, 10:19 AM   #82
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Old Aug 28, 2012, 11:09 AM   #83
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I don't recognize any of those Samsung models?

And also, this is awesome:



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Old Aug 28, 2012, 12:19 PM   #84
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That's a result of Android more than the iPhone. Android's interface is predominantly touch based (fully touch based since ICS). Makes sense to have a large screen with thin bezel if the screen is the display/UI.
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Old Aug 28, 2012, 03:37 PM   #85
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Intresting watch.. kinda long

they repackage old stuff as a new stuff
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Old Aug 28, 2012, 04:43 PM   #86
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I don't recognize any of those Samsung models?



http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...d-in-pictures/
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Old Aug 28, 2012, 05:27 PM   #87
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What I've discovered is that the average consumer has no clue about electronics. My friend works for a wireless company selling phones and in our conversations today told me some stories.
He said people are coming in being shown options, but then saying they have seen the recent tv news and don't want the Nexus or S3 because the phones are being banned.
Granted he educated them, saying that those phones are not involved in the trial, but clearly the damage is done to the average consumer.
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Old Aug 28, 2012, 06:59 PM   #88
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Bloomberg did a 17 minute interview with the jury foreman (I found it on mac rumors):

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/apple...g7xrWa5Wg.html

What's interesting is that coming in he wasn't too enthusiastic about software patents but now is. I'd be more curious on just how he got turned around. Having served on juries before you do learn a few things about the law and do gain some new perspective. A big thing for them was Google telling Samsung to back off on the copying to which Samsung refused.
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Old Aug 28, 2012, 10:25 PM   #89
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Old Aug 28, 2012, 10:57 PM   #90
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I'll do Cannes job for him.

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