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Smartphones, Tablets and Handheld Computing From Android, Symbian to Apple devices, this is the place for discussion and debate, whether it's smartphones, tablets or even gaming handhelds.

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Old Dec 28, 2010, 12:20 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Zero View Post
Those are vague, political statements, if anything. Even Epic CEO Mike Capps states "it boils down to profits and that the money is in the console business -- as simple as that".

Cevat Yerli states, "We are suffering currently from the huge piracy that is encompassing Crysis. We seem to lead the charts in piracy by a large margin, a chart leading that is not desirable. I believe that’s the core problem of PC Gaming, piracy. To the degree PC Gamers that pirate games inherently destroy the platform. Similar games on consoles sell factors of 4-5 more. It was a big lesson for us and I believe we wont have PC exclusives as we did with Crysis in future. We are going to support PC, but not exclusive anymore."

Really? How did he measure piracy? How does he know piracy destroyed sales for crysis instead of it being a bland tech demo that required bleeding edge hardware to run? The move to restricted hardware certainly resolves that issue in future Crysis development, and as I said, piracy on console platforms exists just as well. So tell me, what is the logical reason to move from one to the other? Piracy or economics?

Ok, so you went from guessing piracy had nothing to do with certain developers focusing on consoles, to outright calling them liars because it doesn't fit your ignorant view. Now you question their very statements despite their explicitly clear statements regarding piracy. Are you that dense?

Aside from the countless studies detailing how piracy hurts the PC industry (and statements from developers that you choose to ignore), let's explore other ways to showcase your ignorance. You say piracy is just as easy on consoles, hence it can't be a valid reason. So tell me:

1 - How do you pirate a game on the PC?
2 - How do you pirate a game on the PS3?
3 - How do you pirate a game on the Xbox 360?

I already know the answer to these, but I don't think YOU do. So tell me how "easy" it is.

Quote:


I'm saying your argument that DD makes a difference is invalid.
Digital Downloads DOES make a difference. You initially wanted to reference only retail sales, which is an extremely close-minded stance as far as PC gaming goes. Anyone with a half a brain knows digital downloads is now the main driver of PC sales, to ignore it completely (especially since I showed you proof) exposes a severe lack of understanding of the PC gaming market. Then again, you're not even a PC gamer (more on that later...)

Quote:
No, they're NOT. Using CoD BO, PC sold less than a million. Even if you claim that's only retail sales figures, multiply it by 2 if you believe the total sales are 50% retail and 50% DD, and you still end up with 2M units sold. PS3 and 360 sold 7M and 9M units respectively, which is around 4x as much as PC.

You can find similar trends for 90% of current crossplatform titles, PC sales are always dwarfed by either PS3 or 360 sales. This is nothing new and I have no idea why you would even argue against it.
You're using single metrics of a cross platform game. Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2, Black OPs were marketed heavily for consoles. Like EA Sports cross platform titles, of course they will sell more than PC counterparts.

You take all PC games sold, INCLUDING from online distributions like Steam, and ongoing revenue from MMORPGs and suddenly PC gaming isn't so bleak:

http://www.videogamer.com/news/pc_ga...1_billion.html


Quote:
PC gaming IS a niche market, outside of WoW, SIMS, and other casual gaming, it's pretty small. I'm sorry you take offense to that but it's been the case for a few years now.
Ummm... no . I'm going to be very harsh here. PC gaming is vibrant. You must be one of the fools who predicted the "death" of PC gaming. Fact is, the PC gaming market is far larger than the console market. Anyone with a laptop/desktop can game. AMD and Nvidia have made very powerful GPU's for very cheap prices on both the mobile and desktop platform. The small developer market for PC is HUGE, and responsible for gems like Drakensang, Risen, The Witcher, etc... (Of course you wouldn't know a damn thing about these games). PC gaming is an age where the hardware is so far ahead it blows the consoles out of the water, even for cross platform games that brings no improvement to the PC (AA, AF, etc..) Thanfully, alot of these developers do take the time to incorporate extra detail for PC's. And even more thankfully, we have our PC exclusive games that make console graphics look like yesterday's N64 .

But YOU are not a PC gamer, so you would not be aware of these things. In fact, your post history shows you spend over 90% of your time on the consoles forum, off topic lounge, and this smartphone forum. NO WONDER YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE ABOUT PC GAMING. This website was MADE For PC Gamers, specifically those who are passionate enthusiasts for either ATI or Nvidia. Believe me, THIS IS SEGMENT IS NOT NICHE.

Quote:

It's great that DX11 hardware can do tessellation and slightly better graphics in titles like AvP, but is that really going to sell your games any better? Not likely.
Actually, yes it will. AMD experienced this with the release of the 5000 series. It was the only graphic series with DX11 capable hardware, while Nvidia would be late with the GTX 480. Naturally AMD capitalized on that window to woo developers into incorporating DX11 features, the obvious intent to increase sales for the hardware and the game.

Even today, a strong selling point is DX11 features. Developers who are lazy and only support DX9 aren't going to get the attention of gamers who want to exploit their shiny new DX11 graphics cards. So yes, this also makes a difference. If you were an avid PC gamer, you would know that .

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You can again stop assuming to know what I do or do not understand, it just makes you look ignorant, not me. I've never disputed that PC hardware is superior to console technology, current gen is 5 years old -duh. The point is that developers are seeing the benefits of adhering to limited hardware set and still creating profitable gaming experiences. And the more casual gaming gets, the less horsepower you need.
Wait, did I get this right? You are PROPOSING developers don't push the envelope in terms of graphics just so they can remain in their comfort zone with a limited hardware set? Fortunately for you, there are developers like that...like EA Sports.

Good thing consoles rely on PC gaming to pave their future. We have developers constantly pushing PC hardware, taking advantage of features/capabilities as they come along. PC gaming would probably be as bland and ho-hum as consoles without Directx 11 being pushed, gpu physics, stereoscopic gaming, etc..

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So your assumption is that if the games are casual, a device can't be considered a true gaming device? Better tell the millions who own a wii (the best selling console and overall market btw).
So you're comparing a short casual game on the iPhone to games for the Wii? You need to fix your definition of "Casual" and learn how it's applied in this context RIGHT NOW. Seriously.

Of course, feel free to explain how Super Mario Wii or Wii Sports is equal to playing Angry Birds/Plants vs Zombies on the touchscreen iPhone. (And if you don't understand the difference, then you're more than I thought).

Quote:
Right now, the only real game in town (pun intended) is on iOS. The most "complex" games to be found on Android so far are typically ports of games already released on iOS. What does that tell you?
It doesn't tell me anything than what most people here all ready know, and why I posted this thread in the first place. Why don't you reread the first post again? Or did your console vs. PC Gaming hijack erase and take over that part of your brain?

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You have some strange notion of what a "serious" gaming device should be. I don't think I've ever said anything about that, merely that the iPhone is a legitimate gaming device if you judge by the number of people playing games and by the business generated by its market.

Want to compare it to PSP?

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/PSP-iPho...news-6222.html

iPhone has already surpassed PSP's market as of Jan 2010. I guess we still can't consider it a serious handheld gaming platform huh?
My problem with you is that you're applying selective logic. Take for example the link above, an arbitrary report take from NDP and Apple. The second source should have raised an eyebrow, but the former is entirely to subjective. What exactly is Apple stealing from Nintendo/PSP? There are no cross platform games to directly compare sales (which you applied earlier). The games for each device are developed differently (a touchscreen display will obviously be lacking for certain game types). So someone downloading Paper Toss on iOS is stealing marketshare from a PSP gamer?

Maybe you need to see this commercial again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdZEuW9tjHY

If you follow your logic objectively, then you should have no problem recognizing the PC as the #1 gaming platform:


According to the 2009 PCGA Horizons report, PC gaming software revenue was a $13.1 billion industry in 2009, up 3% from 2008. Revenues from consumer PCs capable of gaming totaled approximately $54.6 billion in 2009 and are forecasted to grow to $61.3 billion by 2014. 61.5 million PCs (Desktop and Laptops) shipped in 2009 that can largely be associated with PC gaming as a key usage scenario.

The PC is by far, the most prevalent gaming platform in the world and is likely to continue to be for foreseeable future.
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But hey, let us not forget that while you bemoan about how Hollywood is bending over backwards for that market, you're also asking them to simultaneously consider the 'delicate' sensibilities of those state side who need to see a flag plastered all over the place like some Michael Bay movie barfed into another equally worse Michael Bay movie that then **** into the mouth of the team who designs the Call of Duty campaigns with all of their red, white and blue awesomeness with such an overly large boner for America that one does not need to actually 'fly' to the moon, they simply could tight rope on top if it. And if you're concerned about whether or not that penis is strong enough to be load bearing for such a journey, you forget that what fills all of those engorged crevices is freedom.

Last edited by Exposed : Dec 28, 2010 at 12:26 PM.
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Old Dec 28, 2010, 01:00 PM   #62
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Ok, so you went from guessing piracy had nothing to do with certain developers focusing on consoles, to outright calling them liars because it doesn't fit your ignorant view. Now you question their very statements despite their explicitly clear statements regarding piracy. Are you that dense?
Personal insults again, classy.

Quote:
Aside from the countless studies detailing how piracy hurts the PC industry (and statements from developers that you choose to ignore), let's explore other ways to showcase your ignorance. You say piracy is just as easy on consoles, hence it can't be a valid reason. So tell me:

1 - How do you pirate a game on the PC?
2 - How do you pirate a game on the PS3?
3 - How do you pirate a game on the Xbox 360?

I already know the answer to these, but I don't think YOU do. So tell me how "easy" it is.
Download game, copy crack vs flashing firmware (DIY or PAY to get it done), download game and play vs copying image to HD and playing. They're all pretty ****ing simple, I don't know what you're going on about.

Quote:
Digital Downloads DOES make a difference. /snip
NO, it doesn't. Even giving DD a generous 50% share of PC sales, the numbers still don't make PC sales competitive with console sales. Feel free to browse NPD and vgc's numbers to educate yourself.

Quote:
You're using single metrics of a cross platform game. Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2, Black OPs were marketed heavily for consoles. Like EA Sports cross platform titles, of course they will sell more than PC counterparts.

You take all PC games sold, INCLUDING from online distributions like Steam, and ongoing revenue from MMORPGs and suddenly PC gaming isn't so bleak:

http://www.videogamer.com/news/pc_ga...1_billion.html
http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_100114.html

PC sales generate 538M in 2009 vs total console revenue of ~10B. I'd trust NPD over some pc-gaming agenda-toting group like the "PC gaming alliance".

NPDs figures also show the most popular PC games are Sims/WoW and CoDMW2. That's your niche market right there.

Quote:
But YOU are not a PC gamer, so you would not be aware of these things. In fact, your post history shows you spend over 90% of your time on the consoles forum, off topic lounge, and this smartphone forum. NO WONDER YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE ABOUT PC GAMING. This website was MADE For PC Gamers, specifically those who are passionate enthusiasts for either ATI or Nvidia. Believe me, THIS IS SEGMENT IS NOT NICHE.
I think this part best summarizes the kind of biases and logic fails going in your head. You've proven beyond shadow of a doubt that trying to have an intelligent, rational conversation is something you're not equipped to do. Have a wonderful time waiting for gaming to assplode on Android in 2011, I'll be busy playing actual games.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 03:26 AM   #63
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Personal insults again, classy.
Why take that as a personal insult? I'm questioning why you would completely dismiss a developer's direct statements in favor of your own coocoo theory despite the evidence presented forth.

Quote:

Download game, copy crack vs flashing firmware (DIY or PAY to get it done), download game and play vs copying image to HD and playing. They're all pretty ****ing simple, I don't know what you're going on about.
Nice over generalization there. With PC games (unfortunately), it's as simple as mounting an iso and apply crack if needed. You have to mod/hack your Xbox 360 and risk bricking it (yeah so simple you have to pay someone to do it ). Face it, it's much easier to pirate a PC game, consoles are nowhere near the same level. Testimonials from numerous developers don't lie (along with some basic common sense).

Quote:

NO, it doesn't. Even giving DD a generous 50% share of PC sales, the numbers still don't make PC sales competitive with console sales. Feel free to browse NPD and vgc's numbers to educate yourself.



http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_100114.html

PC sales generate 538M in 2009 vs total console revenue of ~10B. I'd trust NPD over some pc-gaming agenda-toting group like the "PC gaming alliance".

NPDs figures also show the most popular PC games are Sims/WoW and CoDMW2. That's your niche market right there.
In other words, you'd trust only an extremely narrow sales sample that only looks at retail sales, despite the fact that retail sales makes up only a small portion of overall PC gaming sales and revenue.

PC Digital Downloads accounted for $2 billion, while retail sales represented only 30% of overall revenue.
http://www.pcr-online.biz/news/30432...-reckoned-with

I myself don't buy retail games anymore, I do it through STEAM. Which incidentally, has 30 million active accounts:
http://store.steampowered.com/news/4502/

By the way, WoW is niche? With over 12 million active players, yeah that is definitely niche .

Quote:
I think this part best summarizes the kind of biases and logic fails going in your head. You've proven beyond shadow of a doubt that trying to have an intelligent, rational conversation is something you're not equipped to do. Have a wonderful time waiting for gaming to assplode on Android in 2011, I'll be busy playing actual games.
I exposed you for who you are. For someone that's not even a PC gamer, it appears any relevant detailed discussion regarding PC gaming is beyond your grasp, other than bashing a platform you know nothing about. Why else would you completely ignore my other posts regarding the original thread just to twist this into a PC vs Console argument?

I can play that game too: have fun playing on your INFERIOR console. It must hurt that my ASUS laptop plays the same games that's on your Xbox 360/PS3 or whatever at MUCH HIGHER DETAIL. Funny, my brother brought his PS3 over during his summer stay and the one thing he noticed right off the bat was how much better Call of Duty MW2 looked on the ASUS connected my HDTV compared to the PS3. There's no difference between the games (as far as I know), however I was running 1920x1080 natively with 8x AA and 16x AF applied.

And there-in lies the bottom line: no matter how many more copies your cross platform games sell on consoles versus the PC, it still looks like **** compared to the PC. And that's why PC gamers still exist, why AMD/Nvidia exists, and will CONTINUE to exist.
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Originally Posted by Jay20016 View Post
But hey, let us not forget that while you bemoan about how Hollywood is bending over backwards for that market, you're also asking them to simultaneously consider the 'delicate' sensibilities of those state side who need to see a flag plastered all over the place like some Michael Bay movie barfed into another equally worse Michael Bay movie that then **** into the mouth of the team who designs the Call of Duty campaigns with all of their red, white and blue awesomeness with such an overly large boner for America that one does not need to actually 'fly' to the moon, they simply could tight rope on top if it. And if you're concerned about whether or not that penis is strong enough to be load bearing for such a journey, you forget that what fills all of those engorged crevices is freedom.

Last edited by Exposed : Dec 29, 2010 at 03:30 AM.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 03:57 AM   #64
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lol, so uh wheres the bit about android and iOS? I think you forgot what the topic was about..
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 11:50 AM   #65
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Why take that as a personal insult? I'm questioning why you would completely dismiss a developer's direct statements in favor of your own coocoo theory despite the evidence presented forth.
Yes, calling someone dense and their view ignorant is completely neutral. When you can stop with the childish insults you can talk with the other grown ups.

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Nice over generalization there. With PC games (unfortunately), it's as simple as mounting an iso and apply crack if needed. You have to mod/hack your Xbox 360 and risk bricking it (yeah so simple you have to pay someone to do it ). Face it, it's much easier to pirate a PC game, consoles are nowhere near the same level. Testimonials from numerous developers don't lie (along with some basic common sense).
Modding a 360 IS simple, you plug a drive into your PC, open a app and click a few buttons. If you're really that stupid you can't do that, you pay some idiot who's smarter than you $20 and it's done. In the end, the effort involved is minimal. It's even easier on the wii and PS3, no messing around with hardware required.

The point is, since you seem to be completely oblivious to it, piracy exists on all platforms. I can't say that it's the ONLY thing that affected PC gaming. Developers might claim it's a huge factor, but you cannot MEASURE piracy so how can you say how it affects your bottom line? Also using COMMON SENSE, you would understand that the majority of the population does not need or want cutting edge hardware, does not want to pay $300-600 every 18 months just to be able to play a new game, and would rather pay less money to keep their PCs longer.

Which, to bring it back to the world of smartphones, is completely relevant since most people are LOCKED IN CONTRACT for 2+ years. So do the math.

Quote:
In other words, you'd trust only an extremely narrow sales sample that only looks at retail sales, despite the fact that retail sales makes up only a small portion of overall PC gaming sales and revenue.

PC Digital Downloads accounted for $2 billion, while retail sales represented only 30% of overall revenue.
http://www.pcr-online.biz/news/30432...-reckoned-with
Do you even read the **** you post? 10.7B total revenue x 30% = ~33.3B. Which is still more than DD revenue of 2B and matches the roughly 1:1 ratio I brought up earlier. To use your own choice words, seriously are YOU THAT DENSE???

Quote:
By the way, WoW is niche? With over 12 million active players, yeah that is definitely niche .
Do you even understand what niche market means? SIMS, WoW and casual gaming are the bulk of games sold for PC, those are the niche products that define the PC gaming market. So YES, PC gaming is a pretty niche market. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalala won't make it any different.

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I exposed you for who you are. For someone that's not even a PC gamer, it appears any relevant detailed discussion regarding PC gaming is beyond your grasp, other than bashing a platform you know nothing about.
I've been a PC gamer since I was 5 years old. I've had latest tech systems for the past 10 years up until 5870s came out. Like many other PC gamers, I've gotten tired of paying for new hardware every cycle and noticed the industry shift to consoles and now spend more time console gaming unless the game is worth my time to play it on PC (eg Dragon Age, Stalker, Fallout, Witcher, etc). So yes, clearly I'm not a legitimate PC gamer nor know anything about PC gaming...

Quote:
Why else would you completely ignore my other posts regarding the original thread just to twist this into a PC vs Console argument?
You seem to have forgotten what the original point was about: how new hardware doesn't necessarily benefit a gaming industry. You're the one who started an inane rant about PC vs console because you couldn't stand to hear the truth about the sad state of PC gaming.
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Last edited by Zero : Dec 29, 2010 at 11:53 AM.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 12:00 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Zero View Post
Yes, calling someone dense and their view ignorant is completely neutral. When you can stop with the childish insults you can talk with the other grown ups.



Modding a 360 IS simple, you plug a drive into your PC, open a app and click a few buttons. If you're really that stupid you can't do that, you pay some idiot who's smarter than you $20 and it's done. In the end, the effort involved is minimal. It's even easier on the wii and PS3, no messing around with hardware required.

The point is, since you seem to be completely oblivious to it, piracy exists on all platforms. I can't say that it's the ONLY thing that affected PC gaming. Developers might claim it's a huge factor, but you cannot MEASURE piracy so how can you say how it affects your bottom line? Also using COMMON SENSE, you would understand that the majority of the population does not need or want cutting edge hardware, does not want to pay $300-600 every 18 months just to be able to play a new game, and would rather pay less money to keep their PCs longer.

Which, to bring it back to the world of smartphones, is completely relevant since most people are LOCKED IN CONTRACT for 2+ years. So do the math.



Do you even read the **** you post? 10.7B total revenue x 30% = ~33.3B. Which is still more than DD revenue of 2B and matches the roughly 1:1 ratio I brought up earlier. To use your own choice words, seriously are YOU THAT DENSE???



Do you even understand what niche market means? SIMS, WoW and casual gaming are the bulk of games sold for PC, those are the niche products that define the PC gaming market. So YES, PC gaming is a pretty niche market. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalala won't make it any different.



I've been a PC gamer since I was 5 years old. I've had latest tech systems for the past 10 years up until 5870s came out. Like many other PC gamers, I've gotten tired of paying for new hardware every cycle and noticed the industry shift to consoles and now spend more time console gaming unless the game is worth my time to play it on PC (eg Dragon Age, Stalker, Fallout, Witcher, etc). So yes, clearly I'm not a legitimate PC gamer nor know anything about PC gaming...



You seem to have forgotten what the original point was about: how new hardware doesn't necessarily benefit a gaming industry. You're the one who started an inane rant about PC vs console because you couldn't stand to hear the truth about the sad state of PC gaming.
Actually, modding most 360's nowadays require special hardware and it isn't simple at all. There is a high chance of failure as well. I had a friends drive fail, it took me a few hours to figure out how to get it back, but I got it. I've got the stuff to do it but the vast majority of users would be in the dark.

MS has actively been trying to thwart people modding drives, it makes it incredibly hard to even read the serial number of the drive, which you have to do to flash it properly.

Last edited by Elysian : Dec 29, 2010 at 12:03 PM.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 12:11 PM   #67
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Actually, modding most 360's nowadays require special hardware and it isn't simple at all. There is a high chance of failure as well. I had a friends drive fail, it took me a few hours to figure out how to get it back, but I got it. I've got the stuff to do it but the vast majority of users would be in the dark.

MS has actively been trying to thwart people modding drives, it makes it incredibly hard to even read the serial number of the drive, which you have to do to flash it properly.
But he is right though. I remember back in the day; gosh I sound old , that console hacking was done by nerds and the general populace didn't know where to go to download software. Ah the good old days of having a personal shell account and sitting on IRC doing xfers to your shell.... Anyway, now a days even my pop knows where to get software and other entertainment media. Always talking about how he got X and Y for free; openly to boot. People advertise on craigslist to hack your console and people are taking advantage of these "deals". Hell, one guy walked around our neighborhood with a flyer to fix PC's and Mod consoles. Of course he was advertising "backup your expensive games and run them off the console harddrives; Wii, 360, PS3, etc...".

The fact is piracy is not a niche to only geeks anymore. Its a common thing to everyone and everyone knows one way or another how to do it. Now I am 180 degrees and big anti piracy guy. It was cool when it was only to us geeks; when releases had a size limit and the hackers completely ripped the game to meet the guidelines; etc... now its full ISO's and everyone has the mentality of getting something for free. The spirit is lost...
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 12:53 PM   #68
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But he is right though. I remember back in the day; gosh I sound old , that console hacking was done by nerds and the general populace didn't know where to go to download software. Ah the good old days of having a personal shell account and sitting on IRC doing xfers to your shell.... Anyway, now a days even my pop knows where to get software and other entertainment media. Always talking about how he got X and Y for free; openly to boot. People advertise on craigslist to hack your console and people are taking advantage of these "deals". Hell, one guy walked around our neighborhood with a flyer to fix PC's and Mod consoles. Of course he was advertising "backup your expensive games and run them off the console harddrives; Wii, 360, PS3, etc...".

The fact is piracy is not a niche to only geeks anymore. Its a common thing to everyone and everyone knows one way or another how to do it. Now I am 180 degrees and big anti piracy guy. It was cool when it was only to us geeks; when releases had a size limit and the hackers completely ripped the game to meet the guidelines; etc... now its full ISO's and everyone has the mentality of getting something for free. The spirit is lost...
My point was that Xbox piracy, while it happens, isn't that rampant, especially when compared to piracy of PC titles. 360 has actually gotten harder to pirate, PC has gotten easier, usually patches/cracks are out at the same time as the game...
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 12:57 PM   #69
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My point was that Xbox piracy, while it happens, isn't that rampant, especially when compared to piracy of PC titles. 360 has actually gotten harder to pirate, PC has gotten easier, usually patches/cracks are out at the same time as the game...
True, but it has been that way since the beginning of PC gaming (C64, Apple IIg, Atari 800x, ST, Amiga, etc...)
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 12:59 PM   #70
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True, but it has been that way since the beginning of PC gaming (C64, Apple IIg, Atari 800x, ST, Amiga, etc...)
I know, and it also makes a lot of sense why developers have moved to consoles. It's not because it's easier to develop on a single type of hardware, that's already been taken care of thanks to Windows and Direct X, making it a LOT easier for people to make games that run on standardized hardware.

I'm also pretty certain it's easier to develop on PC than PS3
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 01:00 PM   #71
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My point was that Xbox piracy, while it happens, isn't that rampant, especially when compared to piracy of PC titles. 360 has actually gotten harder to pirate, PC has gotten easier, usually patches/cracks are out at the same time as the game...
Flashing a liteon is not that much more involved than an older drive flash, I've done my fair share. Piracy was rampant enough for MS to have bi-annual ban waves for the past 3 years, the biggest one topping 1M consoles. You also forget that wii piracy is even worse given how easy it is to softmod. Not to mention PS3 now.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 01:08 PM   #72
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Flashing a liteon is not that much more involved than an older drive flash, I've done my fair share. Piracy was rampant enough for MS to have bi-annual ban waves for the past 3 years, the biggest one topping 1M consoles. You also forget that wii piracy is even worse given how easy it is to softmod. Not to mention PS3 now.
The BenQ and Samsung drives were absurdly easy. Liteons are above most peoples comfort level, you have to have that stupid adapter to read a single pin for the serial, and some, if I'm not mistaken, can also require soldering... No one plays Wii PS3 piracy isn't rampant, especially with being forced to upgrade firmware to play newer games.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 03:33 PM   #73
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Come on man, are you really telling me having a liteon drive is a barrier to piracy for a kid with $20 in his pocket?

No one play Wii?

It's got almost as much console sales as PS3 and 360 *combined*.

PS3 piracy is not rampant yet but only because it's only been out for a few months. And there's ways to play new games and not update firmware.

The point remains, there will always be piracy no matter what platform you're on, developers know this, so it can't be the only reason to move away from one platform to others.

Even if you don't want to acknowledge why PC gaming failed, you can still discuss a related topic of having the same hardware for 2+ years.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 04:09 PM   #74
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Yes, calling someone dense and their view ignorant is completely neutral. When you can stop with the childish insults you can talk with the other grown ups.
How about addressing the point directly rather than sidestep with irrelevant garbage like that above? It's actually rather quite clear: you didn't believe piracy was a valid reason for certain developers moving over to consoles. Yet, despite me providing you direct quotes from the developers themselves, you INSIST on latching on to this bogus theory that the "real" reason is because consoles are a closed system. So basically what you did was ignore fact and reason, just to keep the elves happy in your own little fantasy land between your ears.

Bottom line: Developers claimed they were forced to focus on consoles because piracy hurt sales on the PC side. NOT because consoles are closed/easier to develop for.

Quote:

Modding a 360 IS simple, you plug a drive into your PC, open a app and click a few buttons. If you're really that stupid you can't do that, you pay some idiot who's smarter than you $20 and it's done. In the end, the effort involved is minimal. It's even easier on the wii and PS3, no messing around with hardware required.

The point is, since you seem to be completely oblivious to it, piracy exists on all platforms. I can't say that it's the ONLY thing that affected PC gaming. Developers might claim it's a huge factor, but you cannot MEASURE piracy so how can you say how it affects your bottom line? Also using COMMON SENSE, you would understand that the majority of the population does not need or want cutting edge hardware, does not want to pay $300-600 every 18 months just to be able to play a new game, and would rather pay less money to keep their PCs longer.
It seems reading comprehension is not your strong point. (And math also, more on that later ). Piracy exists on all platforms, but it is MUCH easier on a PC. Burn and play. That's it. Your grandmother could do it.

Piracy on a console? NOT AS SIMPLE. You think your grandmother would know how to flash a bios? Your Xbox needs a mod chip or flashed firmware, both of which you risk bricking your console. Obviously not on the same level as PC piracy, is it genious? It took nearly 5 years for someone to come up with a way to successfully pirate a PS3 (current method is via USB loader), and Sony stomps them out with firmware updates each time. (Same with Nintendo). A cat and mouse game. Though, Nintendo seems less concerned, the only manufacturer to make money with each console sold.

These extra steps are what separates console piracy from PC piracy (which is so ridiculously easy to do, it's not even funny anymore. DRM became a HUGE issue for PC Gamers). PC piracy is so easy it evens pirates Wii games to run on the PC with an emulator .

In fact, let me expose your ignorance one more time. You said "Developers might claim it's a huge factor, but you cannot MEASURE piracy so how can you say how it affects your bottom line? Also using COMMON SENSE.."

Actually YOU CAN. Here's a quick list of the most pirated games. Notice how PC pirated copies of CoD are five times that of the Xbox? And YOU want to talk about COMMON SENSE and dispute what the developers say?

http://torrentfreak.com/the-most-pir...f-2009-091227/

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2010/12/...ted-games-2010


Lastly, you DON'T NEED cutting edge hardware to play the newest games on the PC. As I stated before, mid range PC hardware is quite powerful (more powerful than consoles) to play the latest games without issue. Of course, we PC gamers like maximum eye candy coupled with the highest AA/AF possible (something lacking in a good majority of console games), that's why there is also an enthusiast market segment as well.


Quote:
Which, to bring it back to the world of smartphones, is completely relevant since most people are LOCKED IN CONTRACT for 2+ years. So do the math.
"Do the math" hahahaha, that's a good one! (see below).

Now we're getting back on topic. First of all, drop this comparison of iOS vs Android as if its PC gaming vs Consoles, because that's a HIGHLY FLAWED analogy. The iPhone uses the same Cortex ARM family of CPUs and PowerVR graphics chip family used in many other Android phones. The biggest difference is the operating system, not the hardware. Android is maturing as an OS and constantly providing developer tools to assist with application development. This is one of the reasons why Android has become extremely successful and pulling more developers that were once iOS only (like Rovio).

Even as more hardware comes along, like Tegra 2, games just need to adhere to standards...which currently is OpenGL. That's why Angry Birds, which adheres to OpenGL ES 2.0, runs flawlessly on both a Samsung Galaxy and Viewsonic G tablet, despite having two different processor families.

The fact that you're locked into a 2 year contract is irrelevant. I'm pretty sure someone that wants to game on their phone isn't going to choose a cheap bottom barrel crap phone for the next 2 years.

Quote:


Do you even read the **** you post? 10.7B total revenue x 30% = ~33.3B. Which is still more than DD revenue of 2B and matches the roughly 1:1 ratio I brought up earlier. To use your own choice words, seriously are YOU THAT DENSE???
10.7 billion x 30% = 33.3 billion? Who the hell taught you math? Canadian schools are that bad these days?

I'm going to assume that you tried to simply take 30% of 10.7 billion, because the article states that represents PC retail sales for 2007. That's 3.2 billion in retail. So, using your logic (and NDP's), you would be missing a HUGE portion of PC gaming revenue (2 billion for DD's, 4.8 billion for online subscriptions like WoW and other MMORPGs). Does that make sense to you? And yes, it makes a HUGE difference.

Now, fast forward to 2009. According to the same report (check prior link above), out of 13.1 billion dollars of PC gaming revenues, less than 20% of that was from retail sales. Can you do the math on this one? Do you see why NDP paints only a partial picture with retail sales?




Quote:

Do you even understand what niche market means? SIMS, WoW and casual gaming are the bulk of games sold for PC, those are the niche products that define the PC gaming market. So YES, PC gaming is a pretty niche market. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalala won't make it any different.
Since you're Canadian, you might understand this better:

http://sbinfocanada.about.com/cs/mar...ichemarket.htm

By definition, then, a business that focuses on a niche market is addressing a need for a product or service that is not being addressed by mainstream providers. You can think of a niche market as a narrowly defined group of potential customers.

WoW, the largest MMORPG in the world with over 12 million players, is not mainstream?

The fun doesn't stop there. You're applying "niche market" to PC Gaming overall, when the PC gamer installed base is bigger than all consoles combined:

http://www.game-newswire.com/index.p...-news/232.html

Yes, "niche" indeed.

Quote:

I've been a PC gamer since I was 5 years old. I've had latest tech systems for the past 10 years up until 5870s came out. Like many other PC gamers, I've gotten tired of paying for new hardware every cycle and noticed the industry shift to consoles and now spend more time console gaming unless the game is worth my time to play it on PC (eg Dragon Age, Stalker, Fallout, Witcher, etc). So yes, clearly I'm not a legitimate PC gamer nor know anything about PC gaming...
Well you must definitely not know anything about PC Gaming if you thought you had to upgrade your 5870 to keep up with the latest games . And for those games you mentioned, you don't even need a high end graphics card to play. I suppose it was better for you to take a step backwards with inferior console graphics so you wouldn't have to worry about upgrading every few cycles, which is completely understandable. Gameplay is what matters most. For me, I prefer mouse and keyboard and excellent graphics to go along with gameplay. I can't stand looking at PS3 / Xbox games on a big screen HDTV without noticing a glaring lack of AA/AF and generally lesser visual quality than I'm used to with a PC game.


Quote:
You seem to have forgotten what the original point was about: how new hardware doesn't necessarily benefit a gaming industry. You're the one who started an inane rant about PC vs console because you couldn't stand to hear the truth about the sad state of PC gaming.
PC gaming is far from sad. Too bad you refuse to accept the truth (even when presented with facts). What is sad, is you trying to apply console vs PC logic concerning iPhone vs Android when the parallels are meager to begin with.
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But hey, let us not forget that while you bemoan about how Hollywood is bending over backwards for that market, you're also asking them to simultaneously consider the 'delicate' sensibilities of those state side who need to see a flag plastered all over the place like some Michael Bay movie barfed into another equally worse Michael Bay movie that then **** into the mouth of the team who designs the Call of Duty campaigns with all of their red, white and blue awesomeness with such an overly large boner for America that one does not need to actually 'fly' to the moon, they simply could tight rope on top if it. And if you're concerned about whether or not that penis is strong enough to be load bearing for such a journey, you forget that what fills all of those engorged crevices is freedom.

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Old Dec 29, 2010, 05:52 PM   #75
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So your entire reply consisted of making fun of my typo?

I guess you if you have no point to make...
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 06:29 PM   #76
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More fuel for the fire... on topic:

http://appadvice.com/appnn/2010/12/a...gaming-market/

The CEO of Rovio(angry birds) says Apple will remain the number one platform from a devs perspective:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovio CEO
“Apple will be the number one platform for a long time from a developer perspective, they have gotten so many things right. And they know what they are doing and they call the shots. Android is growing, but it’s also growing complexity at the same time. Device fragmentation not the issue, but rather the fragmentation of the ecosystem. So many different shops, so many different models. The carriers messing with the experience again. Open but not really open, a very Google centric ecosystem. And paid content just doesn’t work on Android.
He sees the fragmentation as a problem, and Im sure he would know more than any of us here, since he does have the best selling game ever on the iPhone and solid numbers on android device(not sure if its top downloaded).
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 09:11 PM   #77
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The mobile os market reminds me of the pc market of the late 80s. Guess what? The fragmented and more open x86 platform won that battle.
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Old Dec 29, 2010, 09:16 PM   #78
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The mobile os market reminds me of the pc market of the late 80s. Guess what? The fragmented and more open x86 platform won that battle.
True, it does seem similar in some ways, though I cannot help feeling like the mobile market is a little different. It'll be a few years before it really pans out though and we know for sure.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:58 AM   #79
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True, it does seem similar in some ways, though I cannot help feeling like the mobile market is a little different. It'll be a few years before it really pans out though and we know for sure.
I don't know. As soon as every manufacture figured out how to emulate the IBM Bios (thanks Compaq!) everyone started making x86 machines. By pure competition the x86 market grew even though it was the wild west. It took the industry to standardize on Windows and eventually; in a way, standardize the gaming environment with DirectX. For Android to win out Google needs to step up and be the Microsoft and I think they will.

Funny in the mobile market using the same scenario Droid = x86 PC market, Apple = Amiga (beauty design, simplicity, awesome tech, easy to dev for, has heart of the game dev's, etc..) and MS reminds me of Atari (ST series) with same elegance as Apple, but doesn't have the heart of dev's.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 08:52 AM   #80
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I don't know. As soon as every manufacture figured out how to emulate the IBM Bios (thanks Compaq!) everyone started making x86 machines. By pure competition the x86 market grew even though it was the wild west. It took the industry to standardize on Windows and eventually; in a way, standardize the gaming environment with DirectX. For Android to win out Google needs to step up and be the Microsoft and I think they will.

Funny in the mobile market using the same scenario Droid = x86 PC market, Apple = Amiga (beauty design, simplicity, awesome tech, easy to dev for, has heart of the game dev's, etc..) and MS reminds me of Atari (ST series) with same elegance as Apple, but doesn't have the heart of dev's.
I think there is actually more room in the market for more than one major mobile competitor though. A mobile device is a whole different kettle of worms and what people want out of mobiles is different than what they want out of PCs. Prices are significantly lower for mobile devices as well, so many people can buy the "Amiga" and get the user experience they really want instead of settling for a IBM clone.

I mean, Linux is open too, and it is even free, however, Windows and OSX still exist and flourish. Besides, Android is only open to the large vendors to do with it as they please.

Like I said, while there are some similarities, the whole mobile experience is a different one, and prices are not so high as to force people to purchase devices that they do not want. Now, vendor lock is a problem, but that is only a problem in the US and it won't be long before Apple gets their device on Verizon here in the states.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 09:46 AM   #81
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I think there is actually more room in the market for more than one major mobile competitor though. A mobile device is a whole different kettle of worms and what people want out of mobiles is different than what they want out of PCs. Prices are significantly lower for mobile devices as well, so many people can buy the "Amiga" and get the user experience they really want instead of settling for a IBM clone.

I mean, Linux is open too, and it is even free, however, Windows and OSX still exist and flourish. Besides, Android is only open to the large vendors to do with it as they please.

Like I said, while there are some similarities, the whole mobile experience is a different one, and prices are not so high as to force people to purchase devices that they do not want. Now, vendor lock is a problem, but that is only a problem in the US and it won't be long before Apple gets their device on Verizon here in the states.
True. I can tell yout his though. I am just like I was in the 80's. I have to own each tech lol. I have a droid phone, ipad, ipod, windows tablet, and I am trying to get my hands on a palm pre and a win mo7 phone (free through evaluation of course ). In the 80's / 90's I had Atari ST falcon, Amiga, PC, Mac, etc... I just have to touch it man.
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Old Dec 30, 2010, 09:54 AM   #82
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True. I can tell yout his though. I am just like I was in the 80's. I have to own each tech lol. I have a droid phone, ipad, ipod, windows tablet, and I am trying to get my hands on a palm pre and a win mo7 phone (free through evaluation of course ). In the 80's / 90's I had Atari ST falcon, Amiga, PC, Mac, etc... I just have to touch it man.
I certainly understand that man. If I had the means I would be doing the exact same thing. I just cannot get enough electronic toys to play with.

I still like only bringing one tiny device around with me though, and I dislike having to carry a bag or anything else if I can help it.

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Old Dec 31, 2010, 09:12 AM   #83
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I disagree with every ounce of my gamer being. I have no problem at all playing all sorts of games on my phone. It was weird at first, but I got used to it just like I had to do with any other controller or control style.

I had a feeling why you weren't letting yourself get into gaming on your smartphone. It is just arbitrary personal prejudice, and a desire to not acknowledge iOS as a gaming platform.

You can try to make personal definitions about what makes something a gaming device or not, but the fact of the matter is, people play games on iOS in DROVES. Gaming on iOS is a huge industry now, Apple positioned iOS to compete with DS and PSP, and it has done so, picking up huge swaths of market share and revenue.

You can apply personal definitions, but by any objective metric I can think of, iOS is a gaming platform (not limited to gaming mind you).
You must be some sort of an iOS complex-gaming evangelist or something.

This is like the 4th instance that you're trying to persuade somebody that playing complex games with complex controls on a smartphone is the best fun in the world.

Newsflash: It may be for you, but it's not for other people.

And why you have to bring the "you're just defying iOS as gaming platform" argument each time is beyond me. If you read what the guy actually wrote, he said he enjoys playing games on his phone, just not the kind that you happen to enjoy. Jeez.

What's next? You converting people to think that reading on a smartphone is better than reading a physical book? Oh wait, you already hinted at this sentiment in another thread, lol.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 09:19 AM   #84
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I don't know I'd go as far as saying it's a gaming device. What I was trying to say in my previous posts is.. While the hardware can play intense games the whole touch screen aspect of playing really sucks ass. Most the time my fingers are wondering off course and I find myself fighting to find things. That's because touch screens don't offer any sort of tactile feedback. I think hell will freeze over before Sony or Nintendo releases a touch screen PSP or DS

Phones have the hardware, but they are trying to make them be something they are not. That's why I have a lot of trouble playing intense games. Phones are great gaming devices, but I think there's a limit to what they should play.

Phones are great for games like:
Angry birds
Orbital
Wordfeud
SpeedX
etc.

Simple, yet fun and addicting games.
Exactly. I hope this smatphone-gone-mega-gaming fad dies away soon.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 09:22 AM   #85
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Exactly. I hope this smatphone-gone-mega-gaming fad dies away soon.
Not the first time you've expressed this bizarre opinion. Not sure why you want others to be deprived of fun when you can easily just opt NOT to play. It's not like anyone is forcing you to do it or depriving you of other smartphone development for it.

I don't know what the big issue with controls is, I've placed sports games, racing games, RPGs, adventure games, shooters, fighting games, FPSs, puzzle games, etc etc on my iPhone and for the most part the controls are a non-issue. The only thing I don't see as feasible is RTS, but Civ nations would probably prove me wrong.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 09:28 AM   #86
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Not the first time you've expressed this bizarre opinion. Not sure why you want others to be deprived of fun when you can easily just opt NOT to play. It's not like anyone is forcing you to do it or depriving you of other smartphone development for it.

I don't know what the big issue with controls is, I've placed sports games, racing games, RPGs, adventure games, shooters, fighting games, FPSs, puzzle games, etc etc on my iPhone and for the most part the controls are a non-issue. The only thing I don't see as feasible is RTS, but Civ nations would probably prove me wrong.
I guess it's because I'm afraid what this trend might actually cause on the platform. Look at PC gaming and the state the mega-budget titles and over-rellyiance on graphics left us in.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 09:32 AM   #87
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You must be some sort of an iOS complex-gaming evangelist or something.

This is like the 4th instance that you're trying to persuade somebody that playing complex games with complex controls on a smartphone is the best fun in the world.

Newsflash: It may be for you, but it's not for other people.

And why you have to bring the "you're just defying iOS as gaming platform" argument each time is beyond me. If you read what the guy actually wrote, he said he enjoys playing games on his phone, just not the kind that you happen to enjoy. Jeez.

What's next? You converting people to think that reading on a smartphone is better than reading a physical book? Oh wait, you already hinted at this sentiment in another thread, lol.
It's all just a discussion. I put forth my points and others put forward theirs. No need to be all Mr. Snarky-Pants about it.

He actually did later mention that he just doesn't think smartphones can be a viable gaming platform just for arbitrary personal preferences and prejudices.

So I made counter points to that argument. In that, by any reasonable objective measure of what makes a gaming platform, iOS has every right to be considered a gaming platform. If we all just sat on our thumbs and accepted other opinions as immutable, going to a forum would be pretty damned boring.




Also, since you asked, the benefit to reading on my smartphone instead of from a book is three fold.

1) It is lightweight, weighing less than even a single book, and I can carry hundreds of books and/or comics at a time without adding extra weight. I can always have my favorites reading material on me.

2) I don't need outside light in order to read and enjoy material.

3) I can find new books in a seconds notice without ever bothering with going to a book store.

So yes, I prefer reading on my smartphone. Sorry if that bugs you.

Last edited by pahncrd : Dec 31, 2010 at 09:40 AM.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 09:33 AM   #88
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Exactly. I hope this smatphone-gone-mega-gaming fad dies away soon.
Nobody is forcing you to play, so why must you deprive others of their fun just to provide for your narrow world view of gaming?

Quote:
I guess it's because I'm afraid what this trend might actually cause on the platform. Look at PC gaming and the state the mega-budget titles and over-rellyiance on graphics left us in.
Bologna... you act as if all the casual games have gone away on PC. The games you play will still be there, but more complex games will be available as well. Course, I think the real problem is trying to ideologically mesh smartphones along with other gaming platforms. Besides, iOS can't support the kind of budgets you are proposing. It is going to go more by the 80/20 rule. 80% of the current cutting edge graphics, at 20% (or less) of the cost.

Last edited by pahncrd : Dec 31, 2010 at 09:45 AM.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 09:34 AM   #89
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Nobody is forcing you to play, so why must you deprive others of their fun just to provide for your narrow world view of gaming?
See my answer to Zero above.
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Old Dec 31, 2010, 09:42 AM   #90
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See my answer to Zero above.
See my answer above yours.
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