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Old Jan 10, 2020, 08:20 PM   #121
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the_sextein
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I guess the best way to put is like this. If you have a 35FPS GPU limitation and you buy a better GPU that is 2X as powerful and you then run into a 38FPS CPU limitation, you just wasted your money on a better card but that wouldn't be the case if your CPU limitation is at 60FPS instead of 38FPS, then your new card would push up to 60FPS and would have been worth your money to buy. Lifting the GPU limitation will reveal the CPU limitation. Not all the time but it will start to happen regularly at 1440P once the 3080TI comes out. And GPU power will keep climbing until your CPU can no longer keep up. Then it's time for a system rebuild. That's how I look at it.

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Old Jan 10, 2020, 08:26 PM   #122
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Your image doesn't look CPU limited at all. It has plenty of power yet to go. Looks like there is a different issue on bandwidth from something or it's just the game engine dealing with the load.

Here is CPU limited. Just took this on my rig. I know all about CPU limitations.

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Old Jan 10, 2020, 08:30 PM   #123
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It's CPU limited. With the same GPU setup and a 6700K my GPU's were not maxed out but my FPS dropped into the 40's in that first Hitman shot. Upgrading the CPU pushed it up to 75 FPS. The GPU's both go up to 100% and the CPU utilization tanks when a GPU limitation strikes. Like I said, CPU core percentage doesn't accurately represent CPU limitations. There are many articles on it. They just show the build up of instruction. It's possible for a single line of code to cause a wait while the core isn't maxed out.
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Old Jan 10, 2020, 08:39 PM   #124
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If you upgrade your CPU it will probably release the GPU to push 100% utilization in that scene. If you upgrade your GPU after that, it will probably push your FPS back onto the CPU again. Where that limit is, depends on the CPU obviously. All I'm saying is it would be better to have an extra 10-30FPS on the CPU when GPU's have caught up with it. Right now the best GPU's can't max out a top of the line CPU but in the coming months they might and I can almost guarantee you they will during the life of the system. Anyway, it's been nice chatting with ya but I don't want to clog up your thread or start an argument. Either chip will make you happy, they are both good performers.
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Old Jan 10, 2020, 08:42 PM   #125
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I understand the basics of CPU bottlenecks, we can totally skip over that. My CPU's at 100% and getting that 20fps or so back is the ENTIRE point of this thread.

I understand what you're saying and the concept (regarding your screenshot), I'm just having a hard time finding similar results to what you posted. I just watched a Hitman video with 1080Ti SLI and an 8700k and it never went below 98% on both GPU's no matter how many people were on the screen.


Aside from that, it doesn't really sway me one way or another on a CPU decision besides the fact that it would mean either CPU would be limited in upcoming video cards and I'd want to replace it anyway. Which is disappointing, to say the least.
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Old Jan 10, 2020, 08:50 PM   #126
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I figured you did but it's best to try and be clear just in case. Here is another shot that is more in line with what you were describing.

There are entire levels in Hitman 2018 that are still GPU bound even with 1080TI SLI. What I showed you in the previous pick was a CPU limited scene but there are only a handful of them at 4K on a 9900K and that was when I had it clocked at 5.3Ghz which was stable in games but not in prime 95. In the future games will be more demanding though and GPU's will be more powerful than a 1080TI SLI setup. So every bit helps. I agree that your system looks CPU limited though and with GPU prices being what they are, you have a lot of money you are going to need to spend in order to take advantage of that shiny new CPU.
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Old Jan 10, 2020, 08:59 PM   #127
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Right, GPU purchase is clearly in mind. Makes no sense to worry about it right now though. CPU first...then 3080Ti or whatever is on the horizon.
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Old Jan 10, 2020, 09:03 PM   #128
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I have about 2K saved up but I plan to buy 2X 3080TI so I've got a little more saving to do. I need the cuda cores for rendering, doubt SLI is going to come in handy for gaming over the coming years. If it does I will be covered though. I'm glad I skipped last gen because it gave me some time to breath and save up for these ultra priced cards.
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Old Jan 11, 2020, 05:02 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverclockN' View Post
I intended to take whatever I buy as far as it can go, reasonably. After the comparisons between 9900K and 3900X at 4k, there is quite literally no difference between the two. So why not also get the benefit of additional cores and a possible upgrade path later on? It makes a hell of a lot more sense...

Convince me otherwise, I'm listening.
You know, depending on the game engine, at 4K, both CPUs will be within a few FPS of each other so I personally would go for bang for the buck and get a 3080Ti when it arrives.

So I would guess that AMD has that depending what mobo - RAM combo you end up getting.
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Old Jan 11, 2020, 05:05 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acroig View Post
You know, depending on the game engine, at 4K, both CPUs will be within a few FPS of each other so I personally would go for bang for the buck and get a 3080Ti when it arrives.

So I would guess that AMD has that depending what mobo - RAM combo you end up getting.
Everything I've priced so far has the 9900K being cheaper. But either one is close enough that pricing really isn't a factor.

I'm absolutely torn about which one to get. It's awesome that AMD has come back enough that it's creating decisions like this, but also frustrating.

I'm feeling like the 9900K would be the best bet for gaming, and just hope that the extra cores (for future use) in the 3900X wouldn't be missed. Nothing I've seen yet really convinces me that games will make use of the extra 4 cores, especially with the consoles being 8core/16thread.
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Old Jan 11, 2020, 05:26 PM   #131
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And when we get ports of those 8 core / 16 thread utilizing games - do you want to be on a CPU that is going to be maxed out? Remember consoles have very little going on in the background - PC's do. Nice to have some extra cores to handle extra stuff while gaming
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Old Jan 11, 2020, 05:42 PM   #132
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More good points. Hmm...
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Old Jan 11, 2020, 06:00 PM   #133
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Just get a Threadripper 3990X.
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Old Jan 11, 2020, 06:22 PM   #134
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And when we get ports of those 8 core / 16 thread utilizing games - do you want to be on a CPU that is going to be maxed out? Remember consoles have very little going on in the background - PC's do. Nice to have some extra cores to handle extra stuff while gaming
I thought of that when I got my 3800x

but then thought if needed in a year right after the 4000's come out ( more like 6 to 8 months now ) a 3950X or 3900X will be half price or less
and the 4000's may have 24/48 and 32/64 chips driving down prices of the lower core count chips

and with Ryzen unlike Intel it is a quick and easy change
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Old Jan 11, 2020, 07:16 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
And when we get ports of those 8 core / 16 thread utilizing games - do you want to be on a CPU that is going to be maxed out? Remember consoles have very little going on in the background - PC's do. Nice to have some extra cores to handle extra stuff while gaming
The consoles will likely be capped to 3ghz or so.
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Old Jan 11, 2020, 07:52 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverclockN' View Post
Everything I've priced so far has the 9900K being cheaper. But either one is close enough that pricing really isn't a factor.

I'm absolutely torn about which one to get. It's awesome that AMD has come back enough that it's creating decisions like this, but also frustrating.

I'm feeling like the 9900K would be the best bet for gaming, and just hope that the extra cores (for future use) in the 3900X wouldn't be missed. Nothing I've seen yet really convinces me that games will make use of the extra 4 cores, especially with the consoles being 8core/16thread.
Is it necessary to get such an expensive mobo and 32 GB RAM? Just asking, everyone's needs are different.
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Old Jan 11, 2020, 08:18 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acroig View Post
Is it necessary to get such an expensive mobo and 32 GB RAM? Just asking, everyone's needs are different.
I went the route of looking at cheaper boards, buy the 3900X draws some serious power. Not much behind the 9900k. I'd like to overclock as well and get what I can out of it if I go that route. Most places are suggesting a board with decent VRM's, just like for overclocking the 9900k.

If anyone has a 3900X, and has overclocked it with a much cheaper board...Id like to your experience/thoughts.

I'd like 32GB of RAM this time. It's not terribly expensive for a 9900K since I can just grab 3200 and be done with it for.like $140. 3900X is better paired with 3600, so a bit more expensive. In fact, I still don't know what the hell ram I'd get for that.
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Old Jan 11, 2020, 11:35 PM   #138
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Getting a 3900X, decision made.

Just have to find a set of 3600 ram.
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Old Jan 12, 2020, 01:18 PM   #139
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Getting a 3900X, decision made.

Just have to find a set of 3600 ram.
Nice. From what I've seen Ryzen CPUs don't have a lot of OC headroom so find yourself a nice mobo that meets all your needs with good RAM compatibility and you're good to go.
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Old Jan 12, 2020, 10:09 PM   #140
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Another last minute plot twist!

Decided I was putting too much thought into it and the 3900X was costing a lot more. Just got what I wanted in the first place before changing my mind a million times.

Ordered the 9900KF and Gigabyte Aorus Master. Getting GSkill 3200 32GB 16CL to go with it. Will use my existing power supply and H100i for now.

Thanks for the comments and advice guys, will update when the parts get here on Tuesday/Wednesday.
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Old Jan 12, 2020, 10:29 PM   #141
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I would suggest one thing after doing some testing with pressure films, I would highly suggest lapping the IHS.

The Intel IHS is better but it is still wobbly and not flat.

That will definitely help with keeping the temps under control when you push the clocks up.

I want pics when the gear arrives!
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Old Jan 12, 2020, 10:32 PM   #142
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I'll look into lapping it. Haven't seen anyone doing that. I haven't done that myself since my old Athlon overclocking days. Use to put mirror finishes on those things and the heatsinks.

I'll get it all running, but there won't be any overclocking for a while. I'm still on an old H100i and don't want to push my luck. We'll see how it runs when I get it for temps even stock. Will do what needs to be done if I can't even keep it cool at stock clocks. Main issue is I didn't want to buy a case plus a larger AIO or Noctua DH15 right now.

Will post pics!
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Old Jan 13, 2020, 09:32 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by OverclockN' View Post
Another last minute plot twist!

Decided I was putting too much thought into it and the 3900X was costing a lot more. Just got what I wanted in the first place before changing my mind a million times.

Ordered the 9900KF and Gigabyte Aorus Master. Getting GSkill 3200 32GB 16CL to go with it. Will use my existing power supply and H100i for now.

Thanks for the comments and advice guys, will update when the parts get here on Tuesday/Wednesday.
Congrats!
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Old Jan 13, 2020, 10:41 AM   #144
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I'll look into lapping it. Haven't seen anyone doing that. I haven't done that myself since my old Athlon overclocking days. Use to put mirror finishes on those things and the heatsinks.

I'll get it all running, but there won't be any overclocking for a while. I'm still on an old H100i and don't want to push my luck. We'll see how it runs when I get it for temps even stock. Will do what needs to be done if I can't even keep it cool at stock clocks. Main issue is I didn't want to buy a case plus a larger AIO or Noctua DH15 right now.

Will post pics!
It's really annoying how lapping is becoming some lost art. It's become all the rage to delid... Delidding makes sense for CPUs with paste between the silicon and the IHS. The thing is that AMD is all solder, and Intel has been going back to solder. The other thing is that AMD on the Ryzen 3000 CPUs solders the the CPU and IO dies onto the package so you can easily damage those joints with too much heat.

So you get these sellers pushing delid tools and replacement IHSs.

On my 7700K with the new style IHS, only about 40% of the stock IHS makes contact with a flat surface. I tested mounting 10 times and even rotated the block to see if it was the block but the contact pattern remained the same.

From everything I've seen on Ryzen, the IHS is almost always concave.

Maybe people are lazy, lapping isn't quick, but when done properly it pays back some real thermal performance gains.

What thermal paste are you going to use?
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Old Jan 13, 2020, 11:25 AM   #145
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Quote:
What thermal paste are you going to use?
I bought Thermal Grizzly - Kryonaut with the parts.
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Old Jan 13, 2020, 11:51 AM   #146
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It's good stuff, just be careful with using it on anything bare die. I've heard that it seems to scratch GPU dies from some reputable people.

I have it myself and use it between IHS and block. I did use it on my Fury X when I mounted it's block before I heard about the scratching. So I get to worry about that a little. LoL
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Old Jan 14, 2020, 08:29 PM   #147
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Parts!

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Old Jan 14, 2020, 09:26 PM   #148
gamefoo21
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Nice parts!
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Old Jan 19, 2020, 07:42 PM   #149
OverclockN'
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AC Origins before and after the 9900K.




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Old Jan 19, 2020, 07:57 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverclockN' View Post
AC Origins before and after the 9900K.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/OyyGIie.png[/IMgG]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/9wJhe0R.jpg[/IMgG]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/sZSMC6c.jpg[/IMGg]
Update them system specs :D
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