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Old Dec 12, 2018, 04:31 PM   #61
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Seyiji
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Yeah not liking the exclusivity. If they just allow already well know indie devs on the store and don't take on those just starting out but have something to show or that's in development now I'll just take the free games and continue to use Steam.
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Old Dec 12, 2018, 05:10 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Eisberg View Post
I consider the indie developers getting more money that they can reinvest into future projects a benefit for gamers. We potentially get better games out of it.
That's a "what if" scenario at best, there's no guarantee they'll do that. Some might, others may become a one hit wonder like Bluehole for PUBG and just keep expanding on microtransactions for their cash, rather than make more and better games.

There is also no correlation to money spent on a game and whether it is good or not. Some of the best games out there had a micro budget but were just simply fun, while other games costing tens of millions of dollars sucked royal ball sacks.
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Old Dec 12, 2018, 05:29 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by xCLAVEx View Post
That's a "what if" scenario at best, there's no guarantee they'll do that. Some might, others may become a one hit wonder like Bluehole for PUBG and just keep expanding on microtransactions for their cash, rather than make more and better games.

There is also no correlation to money spent on a game and whether it is good or not. Some of the best games out there had a micro budget but were just simply fun, while other games costing tens of millions of dollars sucked royal ball sacks.
The indie developers getting more money can never be a bad thing. And there will be the good indies that will end up reinvesting that money into their project where it will make the games even better than if they had less money. it's not a what if scenario, granted it is not a scenario that will work with all of them, but it will work with some of them.
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Old Dec 12, 2018, 08:56 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Seyiji View Post
Yeah not liking the exclusivity. If they just allow already well know indie devs on the store and don't take on those just starting out but have something to show or that's in development now I'll just take the free games and continue to use Steam.
That's kinda a head scratcher for me. I mean, I could see the first couple months where, supposedly, most of the sales are made, but for an entire year? Yeah...

Well, more power to them.
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Old Dec 13, 2018, 09:53 AM   #65
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The indie developers getting more money can never be a bad thing. And there will be the good indies that will end up reinvesting that money into their project where it will make the games even better than if they had less money. it's not a what if scenario, granted it is not a scenario that will work with all of them, but it will work with some of them.
What you are describing is an indirect potential benefit which is more of a theoretical investment into indi devs. Sure it's great news for them (if they get enough sales), but it still doesn't translate to a direct benefit to the consumer in any way when we have to go through the hassle of installing (and making sure we are logged in!) yet another game launcher.

I wouldn't mind it at all if all we had to do was log in ONE TIME to download the game we want. What bothers me is that I will likely have to keep it open and stay logged on in order to play said game.
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Old Dec 13, 2018, 07:27 PM   #66
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That's kinda a head scratcher for me. I mean, I could see the first couple months where, supposedly, most of the sales are made, but for an entire year? Yeah...

Well, more power to them.

Consoles do this kind of thing because they think (know) some will buy it on the exclusive platform and then buy it again on PC when it comes out if the duration is long enough (look at Rockstar). That may not really apply well to different launchers on the same platform, but it's hard to say for sure.


Probably a more likely reason is actually a stipulation of a deal from Epic, maybe for free publicity on the platform or an even better cut as a promotional rate or something. An exclusive rarely benefits the developers (especially when the platform is the same off exclusive), but it definitely benefits the platform it's exclusive too. I think Epic's been tossing some money around to get the installed userbase upfront - Fortnite being a good start, but for people looking for Ashen, Satisfactory, Journey, Hades, etc. will be likely to install the client in that first year of exclusivity, which would bring a lot more people onto their platform. So I expect rather than devs doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, they've been offered something for the exclusivity to promote the store.


I don't think there's much extra difficulty in another client, but if basic search and visibility functionality is lacking, well, that's gotta be fixed if they want to last. The way I see it, though, as someone who rarely jumps into games on the first day or even in the first few months, is that almost regardless of the store and the exclusives, it's a net gain for the consumer in the long run. Even if the store flops in a year or two, if in the time it looks strong Steam improves its curation, developer cut, visibility features, etc.... then when everyone goes back to the default, it will be a better platform. We'll see if there's more than teething pains in the first few months, but I think in the long run this is almost a guaranteed benefit to PC gaming - players and devs alike - so long as Valve doesn't just stone-wall them and then watch the Epic store crumble (which, especially given the money involved, seems extremely unlikely).
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Old Dec 15, 2018, 02:50 PM   #67
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One strike against it, no offline mode so you have to be online to launch a game.
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Old Dec 15, 2018, 06:17 PM   #68
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One strike against it, no offline mode so you have to be online to launch a game.
Only if the game is an online MP game that uses Epic MP servers. If it is a Single player game or an MP game that doesn't use Epic MP servers, then you can just start the game up by going directly to the executable in the game directory.
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Old Dec 16, 2018, 02:30 AM   #69
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Only if the game is an online MP game that uses Epic MP servers. If it is a Single player game or an MP game that doesn't use Epic MP servers, then you can just start the game up by going directly to the executable in the game directory.

It seems my mistake was trying to run Subnautica using the shortcut on the desktop then.

Why create a shortcut that auto opens the Epic launcher if it's not required to run the game?
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Old Dec 16, 2018, 04:36 AM   #70
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It seems my mistake was trying to run Subnautica using the shortcut on the desktop then.

Why create a shortcut that auto opens the Epic launcher if it's not required to run the game?
Probably because going through the Epic Store is still the path they'd prefer you to take?
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Old Dec 16, 2018, 06:33 AM   #71
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Probably because going through the Epic Store is still the path they'd prefer you to take?
No, I think it's just lack of thought on their part. The system works this way for Fortnite, so it works this way as default for everything else. It's only obvious it's launching through the store if it reaches a fail state.


It really feels like Epic have come up with a strategy to initially buy market share, but not how to maintain that share and convert people to using their store regularly.
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Old Dec 16, 2018, 05:22 PM   #72
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...Or you could just wait 12 months after release, because after 12 months it is going to show up on other platforms.
My backlog is so huge I can easily wait

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Originally Posted by Crawdaddy79 View Post
Installed the client.

There's no search, sort, or list. The storefront is trash. When you click on a game it brings you to a 80% screen video, where the title of the game is dead center, obfuscating what little utility the video would have. They actually made it worse than Origin's store.
I was listening to a podcast that was saying game store should open in 2018 with such awful features. Part of me wonders if Epic is serious or just wants to try and shake things up and see what happens.

Probably the best (worst) example about how terrible it is if you go to the Ashen forum on Steam, you see people with legitimate support needs posting in the Steam discussions because there is no forum for Ashen on Epic.
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Old Dec 18, 2018, 06:13 PM   #73
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Subnautica caused a blue screen on my PC after 10 minutes of play, from the error it seems it was caused by the GPU driver, played many games before, some much more heavy graphically and never add this problem. Is the game totally stable for your guys?
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Old Dec 18, 2018, 08:17 PM   #74
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I haven't installed it yet. Probably won't for a long while, due to my endless backlog of games that continues to grow.

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I was listening to a podcast that was saying game store should open in 2018 with such awful features. Part of me wonders if Epic is serious or just wants to try and shake things up and see what happens.

Probably the best (worst) example about how terrible it is if you go to the Ashen forum on Steam, you see people with legitimate support needs posting in the Steam discussions because there is no forum for Ashen on Epic.
This example included, the more I see about this the more I don't like it. Steam's storefront is damn near perfect. It tells you everything about the game and it tells you what people who are playing the game are saying about it.

Epic's store is a disgrace to anyone who has their own money. Take Ashen. WTF is it? Let me see. I scroll down a little and see a video and a fraction of a left side of a video, indicating more content to the right. There's no scroll bar. There's no scroll button (arrow). I'm not using a touch screen. The Epic Games Launcher isn't available on a mobile device. The only way to see the next video is to pinpoint my mouse onto one of the dots below the videos. [EDIT: Correction - just found that clicking on the next portion will scroll it over. I blame millenials.) And of the videos, I have a trailer (which are historically useless) and an 11 minute gameplay example that I am tired of watching after 25 seconds.

I can't even tell if the ****ing thing is multiplayer or singleplayer.

The screenshots provided for all games are useless. Very few are of actual gameplay.

There was more information on the back of game boxes than there is for any game on this thing.

/rant
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Old Dec 19, 2018, 05:52 AM   #75
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Subnautica caused a blue screen on my PC after 10 minutes of play, from the error it seems it was caused by the GPU driver, played many games before, some much more heavy graphically and never add this problem. Is the game totally stable for your guys?
haven't fired it up yet, but that's not something i'm eager to see (the blue screen) on my rig.
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Old Dec 19, 2018, 06:18 AM   #76
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Subnautica caused a blue screen on my PC after 10 minutes of play, from the error it seems it was caused by the GPU driver, played many games before, some much more heavy graphically and never add this problem. Is the game totally stable for your guys?
I've got about 4 hours of playtime split across a couple of sessions and haven't had any issues so far.

That's on a GTX970 with quite an old driver version.
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Old Dec 19, 2018, 06:25 AM   #77
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Subnautica caused a blue screen on my PC after 10 minutes of play, from the error it seems it was caused by the GPU driver, played many games before, some much more heavy graphically and never add this problem. Is the game totally stable for your guys?
No issues on my end.
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Old Dec 21, 2018, 04:24 AM   #78
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Old Dec 21, 2018, 08:52 AM   #79
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Mmm "exclusivity"
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Old Dec 21, 2018, 09:11 AM   #80
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Well back to pirating I guess.
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But hey, let us not forget that while you bemoan about how Hollywood is bending over backwards for that market, you're also asking them to simultaneously consider the 'delicate' sensibilities of those state side who need to see a flag plastered all over the place like some Michael Bay movie barfed into another equally worse Michael Bay movie that then **** into the mouth of the team who designs the Call of Duty campaigns with all of their red, white and blue awesomeness with such an overly large boner for America that one does not need to actually 'fly' to the moon, they simply could tight rope on top if it. And if you're concerned about whether or not that penis is strong enough to be load bearing for such a journey, you forget that what fills all of those engorged crevices is freedom.
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 05:24 AM   #81
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Mmm "exclusivity"
They're giving the developers a larger cut. In this case you can't really blame them.

Also, while Steam is convenient for us to have all our games in one place I don't really hold much loyalty or respect for Valve at this point. They've been milking their digital download semi-monopoly for over a decade now. And what have we seen in that time from them? Fewer and fewer real games. Mostly just MP games where they can milk people through skin sales, and loot boxes.

They did some good work on VR, but honestly with how much money they have coming in they should have been able to do a lot more, like actually finish HL3. And as for Steam itself, has anyone really noticed any real noteworthy improvements in the last decade?

So, while the Epic games and Discord stores may be flawed, more competition in this area is a good thing.
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 08:06 AM   #82
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Feels like valve can kind of justify a larger cut since they offer more than a barebones experience for the customer.

Right now, people are using the steam forums as support forums for the epic store version, that is kind of sad.
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 10:05 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Nagorak View Post
And as for Steam itself, has anyone really noticed any real noteworthy improvements in the last decade?
From 2008 forward:
* 2008: Steamworks (most notably, matchmaking and voice communication as well as developer tools)
* 2009: Steam Cloud
* 2010: Mac OS X client
* 2011: Steam Workshop
* 2012: Steam mobile app, Steam Greenlight, Big Picture Mode, Productivity software
* 2013: Steam Early Access, Linux client, Family Sharing
* 2014: In-home streaming, Steam Music
* 2015: Broadcast streaming, SteamOS, movies/tv/renting
* 2016: SteamVR
* 2017: SteamDirect

Not to mention reviews, curators, store improvements, the refund policy... Making a brash statement is easy, but I'm not sure you put any thought in it, especially seeing as no other store comes anywhere near being as complete an offer as Steam is. In fact, no-one's even trying to compete with Steam on features, except GOG with its DRM-free approach. Everyone else - uPlay, Battle.net, Origin, Epic - is using exclusives to force people into their ecosystems. That's their right, of course, but it's not exactly the kind of competition you'd hope for.
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 02:03 PM   #84
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Feels like valve can kind of justify a larger cut since they offer more than a barebones experience for the customer.

Right now, people are using the steam forums as support forums for the epic store version, that is kind of sad.
But offer little to the developer. The cut they take doesn't justify what the developer gets. Valve has devalued Steam by letting so much garbage with no regards to quality on to the store that it has become a lot harder for the good indie developers to get exposure. The good indie devs are paying 30% for less exposure and being buried by garbage.
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 02:28 PM   #85
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People acting like Steam and Valve are the devil when they’re the only online store with a legitimate number of users (besides Epic store which is only because of awful fortnite) and a professional presentation. It’s not just about the store - Steam is the main communication app for gamers as well. Gone are the days of XFIRE for communicating with friends, Steam replaced it and pushed it further.

People just like to bitch about everything. There’s a reason Steam can ask more out of developers, because they have the best all around package. Why would you devalue your own product
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 03:22 PM   #86
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People acting like Steam and Valve are the devil when they’re the only online store with a legitimate number of users (besides Epic store which is only because of awful fortnite) and a professional presentation. It’s not just about the store - Steam is the main communication app for gamers as well. Gone are the days of XFIRE for communicating with friends, Steam replaced it and pushed it further.

People just like to bitch about everything. There’s a reason Steam can ask more out of developers, because they have the best all around package. Why would you devalue your own product
Best all around package? They don't offer anything to the developers that any other store doesn't, other than the ability to be buried by all the garbage Valve lets on because Valve doesn't care about quality. Valve already davalued their own product by not caring about quality at all.
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The home is the first and most effective place to learn the lessons of life: truth, honor, virtue, self control, the value of education, honest work, and the purpose and privilege of life. Nothing can take the place of home in rearing and teaching children, and no other success can compensate for failure in the home.
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 03:38 PM   #87
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You constantly spout that but at the end of the day they have a gigantic user base that eclipses every other digital store. On top of that, when I say all around package I’m talking about steams community network, add-on/DLC built-in, and a more developed search/recommendation system.

Bashing Steam for issues that are non-existent is comical. You argue that they need to give indie developers more coverage/visibility but those same “garbage titles” are also indie developers ... except you don’t care for them.

I didn’t say Steam was better for what they offer to developers. I couldn’t care less about that as a consumer.
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 03:49 PM   #88
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You constantly spout that but at the end of the day they have a gigantic user base that eclipses every other digital store. On top of that, when I say all around package I’m talking about steams community network, add-on/DLC built-in, and a more developed search/recommendation system.

Bashing Steam for issues that are non-existent is comical. You argue that they need to give indie developers more coverage/visibility but those same “garbage titles” are also indie developers ... except you don’t care for them.

I didn’t say Steam was better for what they offer to developers. I couldn’t care less about that as a consumer.
It is not a non existent problem it is an absolute fact that Steam allows anything and everything on, outside of trolling/illegal, with no care about quality.

yes, I argue they need to give more visibility to the good indie developers, and they can do that by removing all games that don't hit a certain quality standard and don't allow games on steam that don't hit a certain quality standard.

You said that Steam can ask for more from the developers because of what they offer, which means it was reasonable to assume you are talking about what they offer to the developers. If you don't care about what they offer to the developers, then you saying Steam deserves what they charge is a moot point.

One thing Steam can do is basically create their own Itch.io type store. Where games an/or unproven developers, that don't hit a certain quality standard can go and is completely separated from Steam and the Steam database. When a game/developer on that store has proven it/themselves, then it can graduate to being featured on Steam's main store.
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Originally Posted by David O. McKay
The home is the first and most effective place to learn the lessons of life: truth, honor, virtue, self control, the value of education, honest work, and the purpose and privilege of life. Nothing can take the place of home in rearing and teaching children, and no other success can compensate for failure in the home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Einstein
Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 07:42 PM   #89
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No it is not reasonable to make that jump in logic. Developers are asked to pay a certain amount not just because of what Steam does for the developers BUT because of what it offers it’s consumers, which is a big deal as a developer as those are potential customers. Ignoring that fact doesn’t make much sense.

Steam allowing “any and everything” on its store really isn’t a big deal. You’re very selective apparently and only want what you think is “quality” on the store. The developers making those games you’re complaining about are also considered Indie devs, so what you’re saying is contradictory imo.

Steam deserves what it charges due to its user base, and that user base was built not only on the successfulness of its store, but of the overall experience (aka the things I mentioned earlier).
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 08:24 PM   #90
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Best all around package? They don't offer anything to the developers that any other store doesn't, other than the ability to be buried by all the garbage Valve lets on because Valve doesn't care about quality. Valve already davalued their own product by not caring about quality at all.
I think you're wrong here, on two accounts.

First, Steam does offer things that other stores don't. Steam is the most complete store in all senses. Financially speaking, Steam has the user base. Just look at the recent Thronebreakers release: they tried going GOG exclusive, and quickly came back from that when they realised the user base couldn't support the game financially. Technically speaking, Steam has the tools, too. No other platform offers a complete a package of developer tools as Steamworks. Steam's main issue from a developer's point of view is visibility, but even then it's easy to argue that 10% visibility among 50+ million gamers is better than 90% visibility among 1 million gamers.

Second, I don't think the amount of content on Steam is really a pressing issue. The 'garbage' doesn't get a lot of visibility in the store. Not on the front page, not in what's recommended to users personally, not among popular releases and so on. Of course marketing helps and costs money, but I think some of the indie developers complaining about visibility are really just having a tough time accepting that their games aren't popular, period. I wouldn't mind a system where Valve doesn't let 10.000 games a year flood onto the market, but I don't believe that even 9500 of those releases really get much visibility at all, and are just lost at the bottom of the barrel (where they belong).
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