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Old Feb 10, 2011, 06:24 PM   #1
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Old Feb 13, 2011, 10:47 AM   #2
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Good read, thanks!
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Old Feb 14, 2011, 08:02 AM   #3
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Andrew: As mentioned above - we're going to keep supporting Stereo3D through other 3rd party developers; They have the expertise in that area so I don't think it would be a good use of AMD resources to try and recreate what they've already done.
Translation: We're going to continue to force our customers that want 3d into buying middleware and use drivers that lag behind official releases and may not support the latest games in anything approaching a timely fashion. We don't think customers like DX10 and DX11 support when doing 3d. We're happy to claim to be 3d-capable without actually putting in the effort to actually BE a 3d card.

http://www.iz3d.com/download/files/ChangeLog.pdf
Last update of their driver... october 2010.


Pretty dissapointing that AMD doesn't want to take it seriously. Ah well. If I ever feel that it's a feature that I want again then I suppose I'll do nVidia.


I endorse open standards, but the whole point is to have things "just work." Adding an extra, unneccessary, link in the chain is just one more thing to break or never get updated.
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Old Feb 14, 2011, 08:18 AM   #4
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3D is so niche its not worth investing heavily in. NVIDIA made a market but it's not huge or profitable for anyone else to go after. There are some hardcore 3DVision gamers here that swear by it, but it's not something everyone wants or can afford, even less so than $300+ graphics cards.
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Old Feb 14, 2011, 08:43 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by caveman-jim View Post
3D is so niche its not worth investing heavily in. NVIDIA made a market but it's not huge or profitable for anyone else to go after. There are some hardcore 3DVision gamers here that swear by it, but it's not something everyone wants or can afford, even less so than $300+ graphics cards.
I agree but then again so is Eyefinity. Gaming on multiple monitors has a cost to it that most will not pay and has a space limitation that is a huge issue for the majority of user.

Both systems are niche right now.

My only complaint with AMD when it comes to their open standards move is the lack of real movement. We keep hearing about all these great ways it will be used but the truth is in the light of day there is little in the real world.

In fairness however nVidia is not doing much better, with the exception of folding the use of the GPU for other things has not yet come to fruit in a meaningful and large scale way.
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Old Feb 14, 2011, 09:07 AM   #6
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Eyefinity is useful more generally than Stereo3D, and I don't recall claiming Eyefinity to be mainstream, either.

As far as lack of movement of Open Standards... it takes more than company, complaining AMD isn't doing enough is missing the point. Complain it took this long for Intel to get an OpenCL compiler. Complain that it took this long for Cyberlink, Arcsoft, Corel, Adobe, to move to talking about OpenCL in their next software revisions. Complain about Havok and Bullet not promoting their OpenCL SDK's, plugins for developers more.

AMD has do all the work for every other company to earn off the back of it? Where is the sense in that? Where is the money in that? OpenCL adopters will find a fresh market for the taking, moneyhats for everyone once the killer app suite is unleashed. AMD offer developer assistance, but it doesn't make financial sense to dump millions into promoting and developing a secondary aspect of a product line.

I think most people have an unreasonable expectation on how fast new standards can be developed, adopted and utilized effectively. A year is a short time, not a long time.
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Old Feb 14, 2011, 09:32 AM   #7
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Multi-monitor or 3d stereo are important because they're features that improve upon the gaming experience and offer compelling choice. GPU's are hitting walls so-to-speak and need more features like this that can take advantage of what GPU's can do.
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Old Feb 14, 2011, 02:28 PM   #8
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Now that i jumped this year in the LCD bandwagon i wish there would be a solution to fix mouselag when using vsync..not that i use vsync so much in games even if my monitor have 6ms.Still sometimes when i turn it gives me a sense that something is there and i get false alarms durring fps gaming..
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Old Feb 14, 2011, 02:36 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by caveman-jim View Post
3D is so niche its not worth investing heavily in. NVIDIA made a market but it's not huge or profitable for anyone else to go after. There are some hardcore 3DVision gamers here that swear by it, but it's not something everyone wants or can afford, even less so than $300+ graphics cards.
The afford part is where a commitment by ATI would help. Once upon a time no one could really afford a 40" TV either, but now it's mainstream and cheap. Making it more difficult and more expensive to do 3d, with less satisfactory payoff, is certainly not helping to mainstream it.
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Old Feb 14, 2011, 06:30 PM   #10
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My take on things:
  • 3D is rather enjoyable and useful for me but then that is me. For many people current 3d technology will not work for them, is not enjoyable or seems pointless. Some can filter out the cross-talk and not even see it (that would be me), others the cross-talk is ever present and bothersome. The 3d effect can at times be totally unrealistic as in your gun is bigger than the biggest cannon even though it may only be a 38 caliber pistol and the people can look like dolls. Others just hate wearing glasses even though some of them will wear shades . Of course each will have their own experience and so far the best way to introduce 3d has been movie goers and not so much gamers. There AMD has made a commitment and has good tech with 3rd party developers. As for gamers well it is better if you have a multitude of companies and developers trying to outdo themselves and compete, maybe then in the future the current strategy AMD is taking will be the best.
  • EyeFinity is useful not only for gamers but for a number of other applications and frankly is being adapted at a faster rate than 3d. EyeFinity is not at odds with 3d gaming, it is different tech which also brings strengths to productivity type programs and even gaming. There different technologies addressing different issues. Because AMD is furthering multi-monitoring and giving more choices in that area then Nvidia doesn't mean it is being done instead of 3d. There is probably a much bigger need, use and want for EyeFinity then 3d gaming, while AMD does support 3d HDTV's via 3rd party developers and hardware makers.
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Old Feb 14, 2011, 07:21 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by koralis View Post
The afford part is where a commitment by ATI would help. Once upon a time no one could really afford a 40" TV either, but now it's mainstream and cheap. Making it more difficult and more expensive to do 3d, with less satisfactory payoff, is certainly not helping to mainstream it.
Price NVIDIA 3DVision & Display vs. 3rd Party 3D driver and glasses + compatible display.

3D as a movie viewing tech is niche, for enthusiast pc gaming more so. comparing it to buying 40" TV's doesnt make sense, nor does asking AMD to subsidize it.

AMD aren't pushing their 3D solution. They're offering compatibility with 3D solutions for people who want it.
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Old Feb 15, 2011, 06:16 AM   #12
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Cave sorry was not implying you consider it mainstream bro.

3D is in my opinion just not as big a deal as people make it out to be. First it is not 3D it is an electronic pop-up book. It pulls an image forward it in no way creates 3D. When I see it in action at movies, on TVs or computers I am reminded of the view master.

Lets not even get into the whole debate of potential health issues inclduing eye damage from long term use which is still being looked at.

Pauly is right GPU design has hit a wall. We keep getting bigger and faster and the truth is that GPU design has not reached the point that for 98% of the people out there even a $150 card is more than enough. They have optimized and increased the power to the point that low cost is all most really need.

With that in mind they have to find some way to get people to buy more expensive cards so they come up with these gimick extras that will work on lower end cards but you need the next level up to really enjoy.

The real wall however I think being hit is the limitation of the modeling systems used for 3D game generation. There comes a point where brute force can only go so far and we are beginning to see that point reached.

The next big thing for GPU is likely to be the use of the GPU in other areas of the games design to increase potential for the games depth. I think the move with Civ to use GPU power to increase comrpession algorythms is a great start.

Eyefinite and 3D vision are niche market cover schemes that are meant to drive sales of a very small segment while delivery something that sounds cool but in the end is not nearly as big a deal as it is made out to be.
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Old Feb 15, 2011, 07:59 AM   #13
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I don't understand what you're talking about only pulling the image forward when there is an ability to create so much depth and separation between objects with-in the screen. By using too much convergence may offer the illusion of a doll house or view master effect but this isn't the norm and by using a nice balance one can achieve a nice effect of depth and pop-out.
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Old Feb 15, 2011, 06:41 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by badsykes View Post
Now that i jumped this year in the LCD bandwagon i wish there would be a solution to fix mouselag when using vsync..not that i use vsync so much in games even if my monitor have 6ms.Still sometimes when i turn it gives me a sense that something is there and i get false alarms durring fps gaming..
that's not due to the monitor

bring up a source engine game with the fps_max command, enable vsync, compare fps_max > refresh like 200 or 150 vs fps_max equal to your refresh

when things arent capped while vsync'd, lag appears... too bad a lot of games dont have an internal cap

(you can probably mess with the flip queue size too, i havent tried that yet)
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Old Feb 16, 2011, 12:54 AM   #15
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that's not due to the monitor

bring up a source engine game with the fps_max command, enable vsync, compare fps_max > refresh like 200 or 150 vs fps_max equal to your refresh

when things arent capped while vsync'd, lag appears... too bad a lot of games dont have an internal cap

(you can probably mess with the flip queue size too, i havent tried that yet)
This is one reason why 120hz monitors and shutter glasses have a handicap, since Vsync has to be used. For movies not an issue but for games you are looking at 60fps and with quad buffering, basically double buffering per view or eye, the 60/30 fps (or is it 60/45/30? Don't remember) jumps if your GPU is not powerful enough thus needing SLI or CF to keep those FPS up otherwise one can be in for some rather laggy mouse/fps areas in a game. Other 3d methods not requiring Vsync do not have this problem and need less GPU power to work. For example if I forced Vsync with my IZ3D monitor my performance is subpar and I have to reduce settings in the game and even that can not be enough. With Vsync off I get great performance and 3d with a single gpu card without mouse lag. This I think is one reason why 3dVision is rather slow moving and a rather niche market since the requirements for good 3d is rather high for modern games.
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Old Feb 18, 2011, 07:47 AM   #16
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Another nice article that touches on GPU Physics from AMD's perspective:


AMD Talks GPU Gaming Physics


http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/gra...ming-physics/1
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Old Feb 22, 2011, 03:31 PM   #17
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Another nice article that touches on GPU Physics from AMD's perspective:


AMD Talks GPU Gaming Physics


http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/gra...ming-physics/1

havok ex employer, Ageia cofounder,bulet physics founder o.O ...Means serious business..
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Old Feb 23, 2011, 07:01 AM   #18
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AMD has been talking about GPU physics for 5 years now. This far they haven't delivered anything. NVIDIA has atleast been trying to deliver something.

edit: AMD makes it sound like Bullet Physics was their answer to PhysX while in reality both NVIDIA and AMD have supported Bullet and OpenCL version of Bullet was developed with help of NVIDIA OpenCL SDK because AMD OpenCL SDK wasn't ready!

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Old Feb 24, 2011, 06:46 AM   #19
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edit: AMD makes it sound like Bullet Physics was their answer to PhysX while in reality both NVIDIA and AMD have supported Bullet and OpenCL version of Bullet was developed with help of NVIDIA OpenCL SDK because AMD OpenCL SDK wasn't ready!
Uhm not really, as A cofounder of the API, this guy is talking about how it works and what is possible. As a AMD employe he is talking about how AMD could make it work better on a hardware level. To me he isn't talking like AMD invented it. He just lists the short commings of other physics API and how this one can benefit AMD. He even states the shortcommings of this API itself. Looks to me like it's quite a neutral few
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Old Feb 24, 2011, 08:29 AM   #20
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3D is in my opinion just not as big a deal as people make it out to be. First it is not 3D it is an electronic pop-up book. It pulls an image forward it in no way creates 3D.
I have no idea what you are talking about, thats not what my 3D looks like. Depending on settings 3D looks like a 3D big box I can look into (RTS) or an open world like looking through a real life window (FPS). I can make objects pop out of the screen by playing with convergence and can gain more depth as needed.
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Old Feb 24, 2011, 08:44 AM   #21
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I have no idea what you are talking about, thats not what my 3D looks like. Depending on settings 3D looks like a 3D big box I can look into (RTS) or an open world like looking through a real life window (FPS). I can make objects pop out of the screen by playing with convergence and can gain more depth as needed.
And that is the real issue . The 3d construct from the left and right eye is done in one's brain. Your brain in how it processes the two images can be very much different then someone elses. Your experience may not equate to what others will see if exposed to the same images. In reality there is no 3d on your monitor, just two separated images however achieved sent to each eye, your brain then determines any depth if it can from that information. Your brain and I think also part of your eye can filter out noise, nose, eye lens flaws or scratches, retina flaws etc. and for us 3d gamers any cross-talk to a certain point; that too can be different per individual. So it maybe great for you and me (certainly great for me) for someone else it can be utterly terrible with no real 3d effect at all, distorted or very limited.

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Old Feb 25, 2011, 11:10 PM   #22
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And that is the real issue . The 3d construct from the left and right eye is done in one's brain. Your brain in how it processes the two images can be very much different then someone elses. Your experience may not equate to what others will see if exposed to the same images. In reality there is no 3d on your monitor, just two separated images however achieved sent to each eye, your brain then determines any depth if it can from that information. Your brain and I think also part of your eye can filter out noise, nose, eye lens flaws or scratches, retina flaws etc. and for us 3d gamers any cross-talk to a certain point; that too can be different per individual. So it maybe great for you and me (certainly great for me) for someone else it can be utterly terrible with no real 3d effect at all, distorted or very limited.
Point is 3D doesnt just "bring an image foward" like Chrisler would portray, it all depends on depth and convergence settings. You can bring the image foward if you like but that is far from creating the best 3D effect. Infact I prefer to have lots of depth like looking through a real window and only using using convergence so that airborne debry, or airborne units etc in RTS come out of the screen, looks great with PhysX when there are hundereds of bits of debry flying out of the screen.

Yes your brain is tricked into seeing 3D from images dispalyed to each eye, I do know how it works but thanks for the explanation all the same.. however if you understand how 3D works and how your natural vision works you will see its very similar, the images are simply pushed apart to create depth, just as looking at real object in rl has 2 different view points from your eyes. So if the images dispalyed are 1 inch apart that will create the same level of depth for everyone, unless there is somehting wrong with your eyes and you have trouble looking at 3D objects in real life.

As for crosstalk, I just use settings that eliminate it altogether, I refuse to play with any crosstalk at all. Most games are fine but a few need to be adjusted.
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Old Feb 26, 2011, 04:07 AM   #23
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So if the images dispalyed are 1 inch apart that will create the same level of depth for everyone, unless there is somehting wrong with your eyes and you have trouble looking at 3D objects in real life.

As for crosstalk, I just use settings that eliminate it altogether, I refuse to play with any crosstalk at all. Most games are fine but a few need to be adjusted.
This is really not so and is probably reason for variations among folks with depth perception and stereoscopic viewing. Your monitor being flat plane and constant distance from view is way different then real world where light is entering eye at very much different angles from a real 3d reality being projected on a circular retina. Eye focus for monitor is rather constant while real world you have to adjust your eye lens depending upon what you are looking at (this also gives feedback to brain in depth which you could be constantly looking around and eye adjusting as needed to focus). You mentioned cross talk and you adjust it, how so? Until you can filter out the cross talk. Cross talk is one eye is seeing some of the view that your other eye is suppose to see and visa versa. Convergence, separation is not really affecting the monitor and glasses cross talk, it is still present but you, as an individual can filter it out at a given point. Some can use 100% separation while others 25% the cross talk becomes too much, I can use 140% but get eye fatigue in about 45min while at %100 I can play for hours without issue. I can see the cross talk and mentally filter it out as well, at 100% I can see cross talk if I want to or not.

Now if everyone's experience is the same as yours then why so much differences? The point is 3d from stereoscopic displays vary from individual to individual otherwise we wouldn't need too many adjustments as in convergence and separation plus other adjustments. So saying "images displayed are 1 inch apart that will create the same level of depth for everyone" is not correct and is reflected by the feedback and differences reported with current 3d tech.

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Old Feb 26, 2011, 05:13 AM   #24
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Unless your eyes are unusually far apart or close together you will see a similar amount of depth as every other average human, thats just how depth perception works, but sure there are exceptions to every rule.
It also depends on the size and distance from your monitor. If you are too close with heavy seperation you are trying to make your eyes look further apart than they would naturally, which most people find strains the eyes.

And lol yes I'm aware of what crosstalk is.. but thanks anyway.....

First of all the monitor and 3D glasses used directly effect the amount of crosstalk you might see, plasmas for example are excellent in this regard because resposne time also effects crosstalk, of which plasmas have 0.001ms. Secondly the brightness and contrast settings and thirdly the amount of depth and convergence.
With this current monitor and glasses there is no crosstalk in most games but several do suffer from it in which case I lower the contrast that fixes most issues and then lower depth to a tolerable level if I have to. It's fairly easy to eliminate if needed.
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Old Feb 28, 2011, 11:30 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demowhc View Post
Unless your eyes are unusually far apart or close together you will see a similar amount of depth as every other average human, thats just how depth perception works, but sure there are exceptions to every rule.
It also depends on the size and distance from your monitor. If you are too close with heavy seperation you are trying to make your eyes look further apart than they would naturally, which most people find strains the eyes.

And lol yes I'm aware of what crosstalk is.. but thanks anyway.....

First of all the monitor and 3D glasses used directly effect the amount of crosstalk you might see, plasmas for example are excellent in this regard because resposne time also effects crosstalk, of which plasmas have 0.001ms. Secondly the brightness and contrast settings and thirdly the amount of depth and convergence.
With this current monitor and glasses there is no crosstalk in most games but several do suffer from it in which case I lower the contrast that fixes most issues and then lower depth to a tolerable level if I have to. It's fairly easy to eliminate if needed.
Well the real point of the matter is that experiences will vary from individual to individual, while stereoscopic information is given, other 3d cues are not. So how well someone can extract a 3d image using a given 3d tech can be very much different. How well someone can filter out cross talk is also another thing which seems over time one can train one self to minimize it or just get a better combo that actually minimizes it. Thinking that everyone or most people should see what you see is probably not accurate in this regard, also accurate feedback from individuals can help the manufacturers fine tune what they have for a better experience in the future for more folks. 3d is still at it's infancy as far as I am concerned but does look very promissing now progressing out of the dark ages.
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Old Mar 17, 2011, 09:27 AM   #26
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A nice article about the capabilities and future of AMD 3d stereo abilities - - great to see more awareness and very welcomed:

Eyes-on: AMD Shows 3D Capabilities With HD3D

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/rad...d3d,12403.html
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Old Mar 21, 2011, 10:00 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krissgale View Post
Thanks for the link:
but i was looking for the video.
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33974838
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Old Mar 21, 2011, 01:30 PM   #28
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Nice to see AMD planning more to improve S3d:

http://twitter.com/shaneparfitt/stat...97112774787073
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Old Mar 21, 2011, 02:16 PM   #29
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we should probably use the Stereo3D thread in general graphics or make an AMD HD3D thread rather than continuing in this one off topic.
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Old Mar 22, 2011, 01:45 AM   #30
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really a good post,I still want to look it.
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