Found the culprit of random hardlocks in 2D

[pingo76]

Well after having that random lockup in 2d issue i decided to swap cards with my girlfriend's one. She's system is (was) perfectly stable before i installed my radeon 9700 into she's pc. Now she gets that lockup too and i don't (having my dear's ti4200).
Using catalyst 3.7 on my girlfriend pc runned fine for 7 hours and then the mysterious lockup showed up doing just irc, messenger chat !

My girlfriend system:
Intel D865GBF
P4 1.6A
512 DDR PC 2700
WD 80Gb 8Mb cache
SB Live! 5.1
Hercules Radeon 9700 NP (previously ti 4200 leadtek)
Win2000 SP4 (all updates)
DirectX 9.0
Catalyst 3.7
Chieftec 360W PSU + generic case (voltage tested with my trusty multimeter)

My system:
Intel D865PERLL
P4 2.4B
2x 256 DDR PC 2700
Seagate 120Gb 8Mb cache PATA
SB Live! 5.1
Originally Hercules Radeon 9700 NP (now ti 4200 leadtek)
Win2000 SP4 (all updates)
DirectX 9.b
Catalyst 3.7 (3.4, 3.5, 3.6 also had this issue)
Chieftec case + chieftec 420W PSU (voltage tested with my trusty multimeter)

Now the strange thing is, even trying a completely new card (other brand of radeon 9700 np) i have the same problem. I can acess all hardware i need since i am a pc techinician (hardware department).

Now what to do with this card? Burn it in a microwave?Stability is a must for me, but i also like the performance of this card! The thing that mostly pisses me off is that i generally DO NOT HAVE any game issues to complain about. I'm also a hardcore gamer so i'm not telling you that one game i have runs fine... i have 50+ games and 6 installed which runs fine even that HL.exe -32bpp to have AA in Hlaf life works well...

What to do?
I don't belive (also refuse to belive) that Intel brand motherboards are not up to task!
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

[Pr()ZaC]

Send that card to me!

[pingo76]

I was sarcastic on that one...

Anyway i found a use for the card... A cheap lanpary mini system with this card would be good since games run well on it...

[rick63366]

I've had that kind of problem, too. Run benches and play games fine, then later when I am just surfing I'll get a lockup followed by the cursor disappearing. Upon reboot error message indicates that it was a device failure concerning the ati2dvag driver file, etc. and will do this at stock speeds as well as OC'd. Will do it with any and all drivers tested. Have just learned to live with it.

[pleasehelpme]

you're lucky you stated you're a hardware technician, or you'd have an abundance of people here blaming you for the problem.

Good thinking! You've got to stay one step ahead of the crusaders.

[jjjayb]

What to do?
I don't belive (also refuse to belive) that Intel brand motherboards are not up to task!

My girlfriend system:
Intel D865GBF
SB Live! 5.1


My system:
Intel D865PERLL
SB Live! 5.1

You have 2 things that are the same on both the systems you have tried it on. The motherboard and the soundcard. I'd be less inclined to believe it's the soundcard and videocard not cooperating, but it wouldn't hurt to try running the system without the souncard to rule it out.

I would be more inclined to believe the Video card and motherboard aren't getting along. Have you updated your chipset drivers or tried using the latest bios for your motherboard?

Other than that I would say to try it on a different motherboard. (good thing you work in the hardware department ).

[jjjayb]

you're lucky you stated you're a hardware technician, or you'd have an abundance of people here blaming you for the problem.

Good thinking! You've got to stay one step ahead of the crusaders.

No. That's usually reserved for the people who start their threads with:

ATI suxors!!! I'm never using an Ati card again. It caused my dog to get cancer and impregnated my girlfriend. I never should have left Nvidia. Nvidia is so perfect yet ATI sucks my dogs balls.

There is a big difference in how people get treated by how they post. If you come on and do nothing but ***** and moan and don't seek help, you won't get help. You will be told to go suck an egg and that it's probably your fault. If you come on rationally and explain your situation and ask for help, people are more than willing to give it without blaming the problem on you.

[pingo76]

I AM asking for help. I am not *****ing nonsense. It's true that i stated in more than one occasion that ati drivers sux, but not the card. I really like the card (from a hardware point of view). I got accustomed to it and now refuse to run a nvidia (IQ, speed, nice tv-out) if that comforts you.

What i nice technician em i? I totally ruled out the Creative cards since they have pratically no issues on intel chipsets. Well, i guess i will try also this one, by removing the live and re-enabling the onboard audio which isn't really bad imo.
I'm pretty confident that sb live! aren't the culprit but i will try since i have nearly exhausted all other options.

Now is nearly 21 hours of stable operation with a ti 4200. My girlfriend had two lockups with my 9700 and cat 3.7.
Now my girlfriend wants (since i found the culprit) she's card back.

At least now i'm pretty sure that my problem isn't an isolated problem which happens only in my setup.

Well, i hope i'll find a Radeon 9700 PRO this time (somwhere in office) to do some additional tests after ruling out the Live soundcard.

As for different motherbors to try... Hmmm that's a problem. I forced our company to sell only Intel brand mobo's in the last 2 years. Well i still can order an asus, qigabyte, abit but they seems to have more issues than intel ones. Especialy asus from what i heard/read.

I have the latest drivers and bioses on both machines. Tried also fastwrites on/off Agp down to 4x but no luck.

Another possibility is that is something wrong with IE6 since if i recall correctly it does this when IE6 is in use. Not really payed much attention but it seems that always lockups in IE6 while browsing forums.

The card itself run very good in games so thats why i don't wanna get rid of it so easily. The Ti4200 which i liked very much is a poor performer compared to the 9700.

If i can only fix just this issue! I gladly have another one instead of this one! I need my pc up and running 24/7.

I'll keep you informed (if someone is interested) about the Live removal option.

" I've had that kind of problem, too. Run benches and play games fine, then later when I am just surfing I'll get a lockup followed by the cursor disappearing. Upon reboot error message indicates that it was a device failure concerning the ati2dvag driver file, etc. and will do this at stock speeds as well as OC'd. Will do it with any and all drivers tested. Have just learned to live with it."

That's exactly my problem. At least that's what i belive. You are running WinXP (guessing) and i don't sot thats why i'm not getting any event log info about that error.
If i could live with that i won't be here sking for help. Sorry but 24/7 faultless operation is important to me.


"ATI suxors!!! I'm never using an Ati card again. It caused my dog to get cancer and impregnated my girlfriend. I never should have left Nvidia. Nvidia is so perfect yet ATI sucks my dogs balls." - Lol! I hate similar posts too

I am truly a technician. If you don't belive i don't care since it is really nothing special to be one. You do have alot more expertise than other's in troubleshooting but u can't know everything. That's why i'm here since more heads know more .

[The Programmer]

Originally posted by pingo76
Well after having that random lockup in 2d issue i decided to swap cards with my girlfriend's one. She's system is (was) perfectly stable before i installed my radeon 9700 into she's pc. Now she gets that lockup too and i don't (having my dear's ti4200).
Using catalyst 3.7 on my girlfriend pc runned fine for 7 hours and then the mysterious lockup showed up doing just irc, messenger chat !

My girlfriend system:
Intel D865GBF
P4 1.6A
512 DDR PC 2700
WD 80Gb 8Mb cache
SB Live! 5.1
Hercules Radeon 9700 NP (previously ti 4200 leadtek)
Win2000 SP4 (all updates)
DirectX 9.0
Catalyst 3.7
Chieftec 360W PSU + generic case (voltage tested with my trusty multimeter)

My system:
Intel D865PERLL
P4 2.4B
2x 256 DDR PC 2700
Seagate 120Gb 8Mb cache PATA
SB Live! 5.1
Originally Hercules Radeon 9700 NP (now ti 4200 leadtek)
Win2000 SP4 (all updates)
DirectX 9.b
Catalyst 3.7 (3.4, 3.5, 3.6 also had this issue)
Chieftec case + chieftec 420W PSU (voltage tested with my trusty multimeter)

Now the strange thing is, even trying a completely new card (other brand of radeon 9700 np) i have the same problem. I can acess all hardware i need since i am a pc techinician (hardware department).

Now what to do with this card? Burn it in a microwave?Stability is a must for me, but i also like the performance of this card! The thing that mostly pisses me off is that i generally DO NOT HAVE any game issues to complain about. I'm also a hardcore gamer so i'm not telling you that one game i have runs fine... i have 50+ games and 6 installed which runs fine even that HL.exe -32bpp to have AA in Hlaf life works well...

What to do?
I don't belive (also refuse to belive) that Intel brand motherboards are not up to task!
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Just to let you know that I have an AMD 2700+ system with an A7V8X motherboard and so the problem is not just related to Intel motherboards. I also get lockups and now you mention it, these always seem to be when i'm online e.g. usually when i'm using explorer or outlook. I also get the extra surprise of complete loss of video at random intervals again when i'm online and so I too would like to know what is causing this.

My system:
Assus A7V8X
AMD 2700+
2x 256 DDR PC 2700
Maxtor 200Gb 2Mb cache IDE
SB Audigy 2
Connect 3D Radeon 9700 NP
WinXP Professional (all updates)
DirectX 9.b
Catalyst 3.7 (3.4, 3.5, 3.6 also had this issue)

[Capt Ron]

Hey pingo:

All of my stability problems mysteriously disappeared when I ditched the 9700Pro for a 9800 Pro.

I'm convinced the 9700 pro has an inherent design defect. Mine
took two rounds (out of 8...I gotta shoot more) from my S&W .40 at 30 yards. It did not survive the test.

Regards

[pingo76]

Capt Ron:
LOL! Since where i live guns can't be purchased easilly i cannot shoot practice my radeon (i wish i could borrow a desert eagle though).

Thanks for the info.

The Programmer:
Thanks for your info! I really appreciate it. From what i heard i'll try to send back this bastard and try to obtain a gigabyte radeon 9800 pro with paying some extra $$$.

I'll post when i get the replacement.

Pingo76!

[jjjayb]

If this only happens when you are online, maybe it's because the network card and the video card are sharing resources? But good luck getting the 9800. Let us know if you are able to get it and if it helps your problems.

[pingo76]

Good try but my graphic card shares a interrupt with an usb controller only. Furthermore, i do not use any usb devices at all. Well, very rarely a 40Gb usb 2.0 HDD and thats all.
I'm now in process to get a Radeon 9800. In the mean time i'l stick with a ti 4200 which has no issues. Cannot say the same for my girlfriend which now has my weird radeon.

When i find out something worth reporting i'll surely post.

Best luck to all that are plagued with this funky issue.

[jawgee]

On my old system, I use to experience the dreaded infinite loop bug whenever I went to specific web sites. I installed the latest version of Sun's Java (not Microsoft's) & my problem went away. It seems like your problem could be similar since it happens with Messenger or IRC. Before I came across the Java solution, I had to bump my videocard acceleration down a couple of notches. Also, I have heard of certain NIC cards causing hard locks with ATI cards, so that's a possibility as well.

Good luck!
jawgee

[Tec]

Originally posted by Capt Ron
All of my stability problems mysteriously disappeared when I ditched the 9700Pro for a 9800 Pro.... I'm convinced the 9700 pro has an inherent design defect

Don't count on it. I'd be happy to compare and contrast my 9700 Pro rev 1.0 with that 9800. 3DmSE or 3Dm03. And this one's been on 24/7 since they came out. (Minus a couple hours during upgrade cycles )

Do you have enough clean power? And does it stay clean? Random lockups on a 7 hour rotation could be the local power grid too.

[pingo76]

Jawgee: I doubt it's java (i'll try tough) because it doesn not lockup when loading the page but it does if i left my IE6 open overnight on a already loaded page like this forum or hardocp or similar.

Power spike? I tried with an ups also. But if it is, why does it not affect the other card i have?

I'll try to exchange my card to another brand again if it helps. Doh!
My psu is 420W chieftec (in my system is nearly overkill wattage)

[Sphinx]

I heard many instabilities with the 865 Chipset Mainboards...

I.E. i own a ASUS P4T533 RAMBUS (PC4200) Board - I850e Chipset...

EXTREME ! STABILITITY Problems - Blue Screens, Abnormal Program closing anytime anywhere,Automatically RESETS !

Now ? I can tell you the Motherboard is @ ASUS -> They RMA´d it because it is a Problem with PC4200 Mode (Not enough Voltage for my RIMMs...)

Look @ www.asusboards.com -> Their FORUM and search for your Chipset... they are more who have Problems with the 865...

[therapture]

Originally posted by Sphinx
I heard many instabilities with the 865 Chipset Mainboards...

I.E. i own a ASUS P4T533 RAMBUS (PC4200) Board - I850e Chipset...

EXTREME ! STABILITITY Problems - Blue Screens, Abnormal Program closing anytime anywhere,Automatically RESETS !

Now ? I can tell you the Motherboard is @ ASUS -> They RMA´d it because it is a Problem with PC4200 Mode (Not enough Voltage for my RIMMs...)

Look @ www.asusboards.com -> Their FORUM and search for your Chipset... they are more who have Problems with the 865...

Well...considering YOUR mobo is NOT the 865 chipset, why are you comparing the 850 stability issues to the 865? The 865 is one of the best chipsets Intel ever made and generally does not suffer from problems unless the manufacturer fuxors something. And they all do sometimes. My 865 based rig has not a single stability issue, even overclocked my uptimes are generally @9days, and reboots are only because I install some software that requires it.

[pingo76]

My latest finding:
My radeon 9700 would lockup in IE6 just by browsing the web in catalyst 3.4, 3.5, 3.6, 3.7. In 3.7 seems the worst of the set.
I'm not sure that the problem occurs in java based pages. I'll try to do a sun java installation for IE6 if that helps. I hope for the best.

I'm tired of this...

[oap]

I assume you've done all the usual stuff like disabling fastwrites in bios etc.
Bios update?

[pingo76]

Even more. I have done all that can be done with my two pc's. I also "upgraded" my ram from 2x 256 333 to 2x 256 400 since i'm waiting for a 2.4C to replace my 2.4B... Hey if it's free why not! Anyway i'm now running 3.6 beacause they are much better then 3.7. At least in Elite Force 2. No lockup since that java installation but it is too early to be happy. My uptime is 10h at most. I also ordered a gigabyte whatever ranging fron 9700NP to 9800 PRO for testing purposes. I guess that in a week i will know what's the matter with this issue.
When i plugged my radeon back in i instantly asked myself: Hmm, nvidia's are that blurry? Wow, that's crisp! Apart of that issues i must say that ati is superb in image quality.

Btw, which radeon 9700+ with active cooling is the quietest around?

[MS-DOS_5.0]

I saw a machine with a peculiar issue that might be related. Whenever there is a good level of 2D graphics activity, the system can get hickups where everything freezes for anything from 0.1 seconds to a full second. It happens when surfing the web or watching encoded video of any type, as well as in 2D games. But it never happens in pure 3D games...(!?)

The system never crashes, but the hickups/freezing is of course annoying enough for the user. Perhaps the same freezing can also be what makes other systems crash. We tried formatting and giving the system a fresh reinstallation and then tried Catalysts 3.5, 3.6 and 3.7 with the same results. Taking out the soundcard didn't have any effect and the R9700 did not share any kind of resources. Tried lowering AGP to 4x, turned off various advanced AGP settings in the BIOS, increased AGP voltage, increased chipset voltage. No difference. Heavily underclocked the CPU and ensured that the powersupply was more than enough did nothing either.

To me it feels like something between the card and some motherboard chipsets. Hopefully a driver workaround at either end can help in the future.

[pingo76]

Still waiting for the radeon for testing purposes. Meanwhile i'm also trying if an installation of SUN java helps. 32h so far... Keep's going on
I hope this is it.

[DeeJayU]

I have the same problem here.
I tried a Gigabyte and a Hercules Radeon 9600 PRO .
24h looping test with 3dmark2k1/3dmark2k3 -> no lockups; but if I left IE6 on this page, my desktop drop to 640x480/4c with an ati drv related error.

[Zeatrix]

...never experienced this problem and I have had the Sun Java Virtual Machine installed since I formated the last time somewhere in december...

[Bitey]

what you could try is to put your "hardware acceleration" slider back one notch. That will often solve 2d issues on various cards and really has very little perfromance effect.

[lgestle]

I had similar issues with a name brand memory and the result was to downclock my memory from 133mhz to 100mhz on the DDR side. Solved all of my issues with games and windows.
Funny thing that it ran perfect at these setting for weeks but took a dive south one week. Formatted and installed everything multiple times to no avail. Experimented with Cats 3.4-3.7 with no change.
One note was very odd in that I had my test G4 MX PCI card that would run perfect in the same system when the ATi card would disply problems, or at least as good as a G4 MX PCI can run. My guess was the ATI card was stressing my system more and would show the flaw in my already failing memory.
You may want to downclock your memory down 33mhz. At least it's easy to do and it's easy to switch back and forward for testing purposes.

[jawgee]

Originally posted by Bitey
what you could try is to put your "hardware acceleration" slider back one notch. That will often solve 2d issues on various cards and really has very little perfromance effect.

This is what I used to do before I found out about installing & using Sun's Java rather than Microsoft's JVM. Actually sliding back two notches worked better for me. With Sun's Java, I didn't have to touch the slider at all.

jawgee

[DeeJayU]

Originally posted by lgestle
I had similar issues with a name brand memory and the result was to downclock my memory from 133mhz to 100mhz on the DDR side. Solved all of my issues with games and windows.

I used Goldmem. It is a very solid mem test. 24h looping test and no errors.

'My guess was the ATI card was stressing my system more'. I agree with you. With the Hercules card, the lockups were more often.

[pingo76]

Well 4 days and still goes on after sun java installation. Finally i got rid of the random lockup. Thanks to the one who mentioned the java thing. I don't have time to reread the thread to thank the right person. Afterall i thank all the ppl here who tried to help.
Thanks guys.

Pingo76!

P.S. Putting my radeon 9700 under my car tire would be a bad idea... now...