Go Back   Rage3D » Rage3D Discussion Area » Archived Discussions » Radeon Technical Support
Rage3D Subscribe Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Radeon Technical Support Radeon technical support forum for all Radeon products from the classic Radeon to the latest cutting edge family of graphics cards.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Jul 31, 2002, 12:40 AM   #61
Advertisement (Guests Only)

Login or Register to remove this ad
OpenGL guy
ATI Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 938
OpenGL guy is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Ostsol
Just curious: do you know how a company would "tape out" a product's final feature set and general specs? Would it be required to have working samples made using the manufacturing process intended for the final product?
A tape out is simply a conversion of your physical design database to the masks required to manufacture the chips. Physical design is the placement of the individual transitors that make up the chip and it's features.

Every tape out you do is (normally) intended to be the last. What decides the matter is the quality of chips you get (yield) and any bugs in the hardware you can't deal with. If yields are low, you can try to tweak the process or tweak the design itself, but that can be costly. Often, in order to improve yields, clock speeds are lowered so that you throw away less chips or you can bin chips at different speeds (like the GeForce 4 4200, 4400 and 4600 and most CPUs from Intel and AMD).
OpenGL guy is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 12:51 AM   #62
Hellbinder
Nothing but the Truth
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada Coeur d Alene, Idaho
Posts: 5,124
Hellbinder is still being judged by the masses


Default

Which means OpenGL guy you ATi dudes flat out ROCKED on the 9700

Btw.. What is your *estemation* on how early the Nv30 could appear based on your understanding of how the process works?? Say they started tapeout monday...
__________________
Intel Core i5 2500 @ 3.6ghz
His Radeon 6870 @ 945/1140
4GB Ram
Hellbinder is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 01:32 AM   #63
Doomtrooper
Radeon Arctic Islands
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 5,331
Doomtrooper is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Lezmaka
lol, you guys are funny

nvidia's taking forever to get their chip to .13u, but ati will be able to bust one out in no time

lol
Nope ATI released a card on .15 micron with 107 million transistors, a significant engineering milestone..

Radeon 8500 60 Million
Geforce 4 63 Million
Radeon 9700 107 million <---Almost double

ATI has until Quarter 2 2003 now to decide on what they need to do IMO.
__________________
"It's time to kick A$$ and chew bubble gum....and I'm all out of gum."
Duke Nukem
November 1996
Doomtrooper is offline  
Advertisement (Guests Only)
Login or Register to remove this ad
Old Jul 31, 2002, 01:34 AM   #64
Bigus Dickus
Radeon Evergreen
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: You know, I've seen some damn long descriptions of where people live, and I was just wondering how freakin' long of a location they actually allow you to write in here. Looks like it's quite a bit. Oh well, if the space is here I'll use it!!! :)
Posts: 1,701
Bigus Dickus is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by typedef enum
Nothing in that quote is either contradictory or false...and/or somewhere in between.
It's pretty simply actually: "This guy is a well respected engineer/CEO, and I take what he says @ face value."

Well respected and engineer go together, but face value and CEO don't. The "somewhere in between" is that you portray Jensen to be an angel, as if he isn't the same shady but clever businessman that is running every company out there. You probably agree with Ed's (from overclockers.com) opinions of the ATi marketing blitz as well... but see nothing wrong with nVIDIA's.

It's the same fallacy fanATIcs make when they assumen that ATI really cares about them, and not their money, as if they were somehow different than NVIDIA in this respect.

Jensen did just what any good CEO did; he said "we're on schedule" until the last possible moment, and when pinned in a corner and asked a question to which the answer almost undeniably means they won't meet the original schedule predictions, he still plays the typical CEO role by highlighting NVIDIA's "quick" production ramps in the past and maintaining hope that the schedule might be met (not possible).

But, if you like to think of him as a religious figure, and not a CEO that makes intentionally vague and misleading statements just like the rest of them, that's your perogative. If you can't see the contradiction between your "I believe whatever Jensen tells me" comment, and the news that he has essentially lied to investors (not blaming him... that's his job, and he does it well), then you are beyond hope.

Maybe I can "Type" it up for you: It is absolutely crystal clear that Jensen mislead investors, and is now forced to admit that the NV30 is without a doubt later than predicted. Good enough? Maybe I should have thrown in another "absolutely," or perhaps a second "crystal clear....." dunno, unequivocal is a nice one too....

Now, we could also debate what "fall" means, but that is pointless. I'll just be frank and put my prediction in writing: we won't see NV30's in large quantities before Christmas.
__________________
Those who fear the facts shall forever try to discredit the fact finders - Daniel C. Dennett

IMO, Mr. Derek Smart is a hypocrite: Only someone who is either (a) lying (b) ashamed of their products (c) just plain ashamed, would hestitate to give out some simple and straight forward information. - Derek Smart, Ph.D.
Bigus Dickus is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 01:38 AM   #65
Lezmaka
Radeon R300
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 121
Lezmaka is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Doomtrooper


Nope ATI released a card on .15 micron with 107 million transistors, a significant engineering milestone..

Radeon 8500 60 Million
Geforce 4 63 Million
Radeon 9700 107 million <---Almost double

ATI has until Quarter 2 2003 now to decide on what they need to do IMO.
Q2 2003 I could accept, but some of you guys are/were expecting a .13u refresh in a few months
Lezmaka is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 01:42 AM   #66
Hellbinder
Nothing but the Truth
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada Coeur d Alene, Idaho
Posts: 5,124
Hellbinder is still being judged by the masses


Default

Bill Clinton..

"I did not have sex with that woman"...er.."what is your defenition of sex?"

Nvidia CEO

"yes we are taped out and will release on time this fall"..err.."what do you think "tape out" actuually means....and oh...the Term *Fall* is so vague.."..errr... "what really happened is you misunderstood what i ment"..."what i really was saying is the "tape out" is getting to the point of getting "taped out" and Fall meaning.. of course.. Nv30 is going to Fallow the Nv25..."..."its clear that YOU are just trying to twist up my words because you are one of those damn LunATIcs aren't you...!!!!AREN"T YOU!!!! I KNEW it I KNEW IT!!!!"
__________________
Intel Core i5 2500 @ 3.6ghz
His Radeon 6870 @ 945/1140
4GB Ram

Last edited by Hellbinder : Jul 31, 2002 at 01:46 AM.
Hellbinder is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 02:11 AM   #67
Ostsol
Cheesesun
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 3,604
Ostsol is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by OpenGL guy

A tape out is simply a conversion of your physical design database to the masks required to manufacture the chips. Physical design is the placement of the individual transitors that make up the chip and it's features.

Every tape out you do is (normally) intended to be the last. What decides the matter is the quality of chips you get (yield) and any bugs in the hardware you can't deal with. If yields are low, you can try to tweak the process or tweak the design itself, but that can be costly. Often, in order to improve yields, clock speeds are lowered so that you throw away less chips or you can bin chips at different speeds (like the GeForce 4 4200, 4400 and 4600 and most CPUs from Intel and AMD).
Eek. . . The process sounds kinda frightening. Like writing a complete program without getting to test it until you're done. I tried that once and was so taken aback by the amount of bugs I found that I decided to just start over and write the thing in steps (I've no idea what I'd been thinking, before). My respect for the engineers that work on this has leapt up another few notches (rather big notches, at that).

Thanks for the info!
__________________
Windows XP / Kubuntu (Dapper Drake) Linux
Pentium 940 D @ 3.2 GHz
1024 MB PC-4200 DDR2 RAM
ATI Radeon X1900 XTX
SoundBlaster Audigy XGamer

-Ostsol
Ostsol is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 02:24 AM   #68
Fotis
Radeon R700
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Greece Greece
Posts: 774
Fotis is still being judged by the masses


Default

Just imagine the 0.13 r300 ddrII coming earlier than nv30!!
Fotis is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 03:20 AM   #69
Wunderchu
Radeon Northern Islands
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Canada Burnaby, B.C.
Posts: 2,092
Wunderchu is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Fotis
Just imagine the 0.13 r300 ddrII coming earlier than nv30!!
LOL
__________________
Heatware

May the light of the Lord shine upon your path.

{my avatar GIF was created by Blizzard Entertainment®}
Wunderchu is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 04:02 AM   #70
BrainPiercing
Tseng Labs ET500
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,720
BrainPiercing is still being judged by the masses


Default

Huh? I thougt it was common news that ATI also wanted to get a die-shrunk 9700 out early next year.
__________________
My OLD System, now Mediastation:
Asus A7N8X Deluxe with Barton 2.5 @ 200*11
2x512MB Corsair CL2 PC400
IBM Deskstar 307030 30GB HD, Ultra ATA 100, 7200 RPM + WD something
60GB HD, Ultra ATA100, 7200 RPM + WD Caviar 120GB SATA133 7200RPM + Samsung 200GB Sata150 7200
Powercolor Radeon 9800pro STILL running 4.3 cats, and Arctic Cooling VGA Silencer
Onboard network cards; !!!Win98SE!!! (yes 200GB HDD on Win98 works fine :))
NEW: HP nx9420, T2400, x1600 256M, 1440x900, 1GB, 100GB HDD, XPPro.
BrainPiercing is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 04:12 AM   #71
Wunderchu
Radeon Northern Islands
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Canada Burnaby, B.C.
Posts: 2,092
Wunderchu is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by BrainPiercing
Huh? I thougt it was common news that ATI also wanted to get a die-shrunk 9700 out early next year.
yes, most people expect that ATI will likely release a Radeon 9700 in 0.13 micron with DDR-II sometime early next year ... (I estimate that it will be released sometime between February and April) .......
__________________
Heatware

May the light of the Lord shine upon your path.

{my avatar GIF was created by Blizzard Entertainment®}
Wunderchu is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 05:10 AM   #72
dominikbehr
Radeon R300
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 127
dominikbehr is still being judged by the masses


Lightbulb

here is little clarification for the whole tape out confusion.
in old times when chip was designed whole design database was saved on magnetic tape. then the TAPE was shipped OUT to the fab. this is where TAPE OUT comes from.

nowadays, thanks to wonders of internet the design database is just uploaded via ftp to the fab but the event is still called TAPE OUT.

every chip is made of layers. every layer needs a mask. the mask is like a negative of a picture. the chips are made of silicon wafers which look like round flat glassy plates. first wafer is covered by light sensitive material. then UV light (quite close to X-rays in smallest processes) is projected through the mask on wafer. then in chemical process some of the material is removed and some stays. then in another process exposed parts of silicon can be treated to be N or P or insulator or something or some metal can be applied over it. the process is repeated with every mask and chemicals.

the whole chip fabrication process takes lots of time, weeks and months, so from the tape out to final chips it can be 1 - 2 months. then wafers have to be cut and chips packaged into black plastic or ceramic with shiny pins

now if there is a bug in design of a chip it usually means that (parts of) the design database has to be changed and resend to the fab.

it is possible though to fix some bugs in so called metal layer, which i suppose is the last top layer. it is called metal rev (revision). i guess changes in metal layer are cheaper (only one mask to make) and can come much faster because there can be wafers with lower layers already done.

btw, metal rev can be called tape out, it is just smaller scale event.

i am software engineer and i dont believe in electrons so not everything i have written here may be 100% accurate.
dominikbehr is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 06:42 AM   #73
Nazgul
Radeon Evergreen
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 1,946
Nazgul is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Doomtrooper
ATI has until Quarter 2 2003 now to decide on what they need to do IMO.
Actually, I would think they'd have to -decide- much earlier than that. Whatever they decide should -ship- sometime in Q2 2003. A .13u DDR-II R300 part would probably do quite well in that window. Isn't that the release window for DirectX9.1 also? Anyone know what changes there'll be?



Nazgul
__________________
"The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter. 'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade."
Nazgul is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 08:40 AM   #74
Doomtrooper
Radeon Arctic Islands
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 5,331
Doomtrooper is still being judged by the masses


Default

I assume that their won't be a Direct X 9.1, DirectX 8 was the 1st to introduce the 'refresh' and that was due to developers complaining about the complexity of coding shaders.
Pixel Shader 1.4 made it easier to code these effects and gave more flexability.

I stated Quarter 2 2003 as ATI will have a established DX9 part on the market with lots of time to get their hardware well tweaked for the holiday season..
If NV30 does release for December then based off its peformance can answer with something Early Quarter 2 2003, as the NV30 will not make a signficant market penetration in one month, to make things more clear here Nvidia or ATI don't just push a button and every board maker gets their order filled instantly...thats why today we see these 'paper launches' and the 30 days will be available quotes.
As we speak the 9700 GPU is being run off in mass quantities and being sent to the board makers, ready for release late August.
__________________
"It's time to kick A$$ and chew bubble gum....and I'm all out of gum."
Duke Nukem
November 1996
Doomtrooper is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 08:45 AM   #75
RadeonMAXX
Driver FiEND
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Portland, Or. USA!
Posts: 2,519
RadeonMAXX is still being judged by the masses


Default

X-Bit Labs has some information regarding the NV30. Essentially, it is a re-cap of the information posted by Beyond 3D. However, there was one line in particular which put a smile on my face:
"However, there is not so much waiting left before we will be able to see what the actual NV30 is like. From what we hear, the new NVIDIA solution is due in October this year."

www.nvnews.net


__________________
Win XP Home Edition Service Pack 1 beta
Palomino [email protected]
Retail Radeon 8500 - ATI CATALYST 2.1/Driver build 6094's!
IWILL KK266 http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1489&p=10

Save lives & fold for TEAM RAGE3D!
HERE
DirectX 9 beta 1 Prepatched!(Time Limit removed)

The Goonies 2(original cast is back!) http://oregon.pacificnorthwestmovies.com/TheGoonies2
this sig was automatically shortened to meet the 10-lines max rule
RadeonMAXX is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 08:52 AM   #76
cveale
Troll Hunter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Earth (Atlanta, GA)
Posts: 791
cveale is still being judged by the masses


Default

One other point to consider is that ATI does not rely on TSMC or UMC. They have their own fab plant. In a statement from ATI a while back they mentioned that they already are working with the .13 process. They might be further along with this than people might believe (speculation, of course).
__________________
"Roof-pig! Most unexpected."

"Happy me, I'm the biggest, brightest ball of gas in the cosmos."

P4 2.53 - o'clocked to 2.75 (fsb 147)
512 MB Corsair 3200 Cas2
Radeon 9700 Pro
Gigabyte GA-8SG677 motherboard
Intel Pro 100 net card
this sig was automatically shortened to meet the 10-lines max rule
cveale is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 09:00 AM   #77
Doomtrooper
Radeon Arctic Islands
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 5,331
Doomtrooper is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by RadeonMAXX
X-Bit Labs has some information regarding the NV30. Essentially, it is a re-cap of the information posted by Beyond 3D. However, there was one line in particular which put a smile on my face:
"However, there is not so much waiting left before we will be able to see what the actual NV30 is like. From what we hear, the new NVIDIA solution is due in October this year."

www.nvnews.net


Thats thread is old, and also is moot now the CEO of Nvidia has stated quite clearly...

nv30 status

"It should be available for holiday season"

"Has the NV30 taped out yet?"

"Historically Nvidia done a good job with tapeouts etc... We're in the process of wrapping it up"

"So it has not been taped out yet?"

"We're in the process of wrapping it up so the answer is not"
__________________
"It's time to kick A$$ and chew bubble gum....and I'm all out of gum."
Duke Nukem
November 1996
Doomtrooper is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 09:02 AM   #78
T2k
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,963
T2k is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Doomtrooper



Radeon 9700 107 million

Just for the records: this was rumour only.

R300 contain 110+M transistors - stated by ATI.
T2k is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 09:27 AM   #79
Doomtrooper
Radeon Arctic Islands
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 5,331
Doomtrooper is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by T2k


Just for the records: this was rumour only.

R300 contain 110+M transistors - stated by ATI.
Yep my mistake..
__________________
"It's time to kick A$$ and chew bubble gum....and I'm all out of gum."
Duke Nukem
November 1996
Doomtrooper is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 09:56 AM   #80
HiThere
salty cracker
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,136
HiThere is still being judged by the masses


Default

Funny, on Nvnews, some are still clinging to the hope NV30 'll be there early, to the tune of "Maybe Huang was telling the truth before, and lying now." Of course!! He's just lulling the competition into a false sense of security!
__________________
Butterscotch Morsels.
HiThere is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 10:09 AM   #81
T2k
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,963
T2k is still being judged by the masses


Red face

Quote:
Originally posted by hithere
Of course!! He's just lulling the competition into a false sense of security!
...yeah and risking a big lawsuit against his own investors.
T2k is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 10:50 AM   #82
LordPain
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Orlando, Florida (land of the Rat)
Posts: 6,969
LordPain is still being judged by the masses


Default

Yeah nv wants thier stock to plunge 30%,
LordPain is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 03:56 PM   #83
vFunct
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 12
vFunct is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by cveale
One other point to consider is that ATI does not rely on TSMC or UMC. They have their own fab plant. In a statement from ATI a while back they mentioned that they already are working with the .13 process. They might be further along with this than people might believe (speculation, of course).
No this is not correct. Like NVidia, ATI doesn't own a fab.

-vFunct
vFunct is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 04:24 PM   #84
Sachankara
Rage3D Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sweden Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 1,091
Sachankara is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Ostsol


Eek. . . The process sounds kinda frightening. Like writing a complete program without getting to test it until you're done. I tried that once and was so taken aback by the amount of bugs I found that I decided to just start over and write the thing in steps (I've no idea what I'd been thinking, before). My respect for the engineers that work on this has leapt up another few notches (rather big notches, at that).

Thanks for the info!
They have powerful supercomputers that can simulate the processor before they've made physical copies of it/them, simply to ensure that the processor will actually work... (The program cannot forsee what problems might arise in the printing process, so therefor layout changes might have to be done afterwards to make the actual design work "in the real world"... ) Processors aren't drawn on paper these days you know... It's more like an CAD mixed with an advanced form of programming...

Edit: Fixed the grammar a bit...

Last edited by Sachankara : Jul 31, 2002 at 04:27 PM.
Sachankara is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 04:26 PM   #85
RadeonMAXX
Driver FiEND
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Portland, Or. USA!
Posts: 2,519
RadeonMAXX is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Doomtrooper


Thats thread is old, and also is moot now the CEO of Nvidia has stated quite clearly...

nv30 status

"It should be available for holiday season"

"Has the NV30 taped out yet?"

"Historically Nvidia done a good job with tapeouts etc... We're in the process of wrapping it up"

"So it has not been taped out yet?"

"We're in the process of wrapping it up so the answer is not"
I know its old, but NVNEWS posted it today.
I guess they have no clue.
__________________
Win XP Home Edition Service Pack 1 beta
Palomino [email protected]
Retail Radeon 8500 - ATI CATALYST 2.1/Driver build 6094's!
IWILL KK266 http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1489&p=10

Save lives & fold for TEAM RAGE3D!
HERE
DirectX 9 beta 1 Prepatched!(Time Limit removed)

The Goonies 2(original cast is back!) http://oregon.pacificnorthwestmovies.com/TheGoonies2
this sig was automatically shortened to meet the 10-lines max rule
RadeonMAXX is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 04:48 PM   #86
ChrisW
Radeon Evergreen
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,636
ChrisW is still being judged by the masses


Default

It seems nVNews will post any rumor on it's front page they want to believe.
ChrisW is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 06:34 PM   #87
GarfBond
Radeon R300
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 129
GarfBond is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by CainSyris
I'd be very surprised to see a graphics card company, like ATI, see a stock improvement based on a 400 dollar card that is outside of the reach of most consumers and thus will have no effect on the market in any appreciable way, a company with only their first time being in the top performance echelon, and a video card company that has not actually shipped any R9700's to reviewers, let alone to anybody else.

Don't forget that right now nV still has the top performing card and, if Best Buy is to be believed, it will be September before that changes. I honestly cannot see why ATI users continue to dance around the fire that is nV not having their DX 9 card out now, but forget that indeed ATI is still a ways away from releasing their own.

I think, if I were you, I'd wait until R9700 is launched before I would even BEGIN to speculate on stocks rising. And, more than that, all stocks are down, not just nV's. Don't exaggerate announcements as meaning more than they do.

So in summary:

1) nV's nv30 will be late in coming. No doubt.
2) high-end video cards do not a great stock make.
3) high-end cards affect a very small percentage of the people buying video cards
4) sales of the low and mid-end make up more of the market and right now, ATI is looking piss-poor there.
5) ATI's super-card is not even out yet and all indications suggest it is still some time away. ATI says less than 30 days, but reviewers should be getting their cards, if their two weeks they said, were true.

And, of course, technically, holiday season is anywhere from November to December. Not that they can pull it out of their butt instantly. Still, nV's pulled rabbits out of their hats before and it is too soon for any self-respecting ATI fanatic to shoot up fireworks. So many talk about PR, but its ATI who's putting out the mega-PR atm and not even giving cards out to reviewers. Tsk, tsk.

Let's wait until September before we laugh about how high-end video cards do not affect the stock market, eh?
Ah, but you forget, ATI's solution is undeniably ahead of whatever it is nv has. No amount of speculation can really do anything for nv30. If it hasn't taped out, no one can talk about performance (no matter what a white paper says). I haven't seen 9700 boards, but I can feel safe in assuming that I'll see reviews of them and on store shelves long before I hear anything solid about nv30.

Oh, by the way, having your lead product become late is generally a *bad* thing for one's stock Everyone might be heading down, but nv's is going down for a reason (including SEC investigation). Having a good lead product is generally good for a stock as well.

Even if nv has the top performing card right now, that isn't to say that it's worth buying at the moment. If I know a vastly better card awaits, even in Sept, I wouldn't *buy* a 4600. Of course I'm not an overly gullible consumer, but nevermind that. Plus, 9700 has actual dates associated with it. Review cards soon, ship in late Aug approx (Sept 15 could very well be a conservative estimate). nv30 has an entire season dedicated to its ship dates.

As previously mentioned, your high end product dictates how others looks at your low end. And I don't think the 9000 is that bad of a catch. It's bad for *me*, but I think it's certainly better than GF4MX. No matter what you think, having a DX8 card as your mainstream choice and having it perform admirably is something devs would really like. In the $200 range, we'll be looking at 9500 soon enough, but OEMs that buy lowend are a much bigger catch than retail consumers.

Last edited by GarfBond : Jul 31, 2002 at 06:42 PM.
GarfBond is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 09:40 PM   #88
Ratchet
The Tool
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Canada The Rock
Posts: 7,622
Ratchet is still being judged by the masses


Subscriber
Default

I noticed that the new R300 looks a hell of a lot like an Intel processor, also ATI has a close business relationshop with Intel - I wonder if Intel had a hand in designing/manufacturing the R300? Intel obviously has a lock on the .13u fab process as well, I wonder if there's some Intel help in that area for ATI? Hrm.
__________________
7
Ratchet is offline  
Old Jul 31, 2002, 11:03 PM   #89
night
Radeon Arctic Islands
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: houston
Posts: 10,655
night can beat 'Minesweeper' on any difficultynight can beat 'Minesweeper' on any difficulty


Default

so i assume it would be wise to buy ATI stock before the real reviews come out ? (to maximize profit of course )
night is offline  
Old Aug 1, 2002, 01:13 AM   #90
OpenGL guy
ATI Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 938
OpenGL guy is still being judged by the masses


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Hellbinder
Which means OpenGL guy you ATi dudes flat out ROCKED on the 9700
Aw shucks, you're embarassing me

In reality, I joined the company in February. I've done some good stuff, but I can't take all the credit.
Quote:

Btw.. What is your *estemation* on how early the Nv30 could appear based on your understanding of how the process works?? Say they started tapeout monday...
Based on what I have seen from two companies I have worked at, the time from tape out to getting silicon back is between one and two months. Assuming the hardware works flawlessly, you could have volume for shipping no earlier than two months, but three is more likely. Each respin (new tape out) you have to do, costs another month to two months. Don't forget that even if the hardware is perfect, you still have to make sure your driver works and get it WHQL certified, etc.

Looking at some numbers people have posted, the fastest turn around time nvidia has had was 98 days or so for the TNT2, which was largely the same design as the TNT, just made to run at higher frequencies. As far as I know, this number (98 days) represents the time from the final tape out to volume shipping. Again, remember that the TNT2 used the same driver as TNT (it was really the same hardware just faster clocked). Also note that this was the second rev. of the TNT2, so add an extra month or so in and you get about 130 days total which is over four months. The Geforce 2 MX only took one rev., but the time from tape out to volume was 110 days, which is close to four months.

Anyway you look at it, it seems that nvidia will be hard pressed to get volume shipping by December, and it really needs to be in November so they can take orders.

This is all just my opinion based on past performance.
OpenGL guy is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NVDA has ATI Trapped Razors AMD Radeon Discussion and Support 117 May 1, 2003 08:31 AM
NV30 still not taped out (REQ: ban me, lock the thread) Lux Radeon Technical Support 23 Sep 24, 2002 04:55 AM
NV30 still not taped out! ChrisW Radeon Technical Support 96 Aug 17, 2002 10:48 AM
if NVDA bought ATI - wot would u do? Razors Off Topic Lounge 43 Apr 28, 2002 01:14 AM
NVDA down jima13 Off Topic Lounge 1 Nov 19, 2001 01:55 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:44 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All trademarks used are properties of their respective owners. Copyright ©1998-2011 Rage3D.com
Links monetized by VigLink