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Old Feb 6, 2002, 02:44 PM   #1
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DeathKnight
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Default Glimpse of what the NV2A is all about (GF4)

nfiniteFX II Engine

This is as far as the similarities go between the NV2A and GF4 from what I know. I'll look into this some more
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 08:26 PM   #2
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They just had a little segment on TechTV on the new GF4. The Nvidia rep stated that the GF4 and Xbox video hardware are very similar

Neat stuff.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 08:50 PM   #3
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HA
looks like Xbox emulation is gonna be closer than we expect
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 08:57 PM   #4
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No no no! Everyone knows you can't emulate an XBOX!!

You wouldn't need a GF3 to emulate and Xbox in the first place, all you'd need is a powerful enough system and a smart/skilled enough programmer.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 09:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sasquach
HA
looks like Xbox emulation is gonna be closer than we expect
Nah, there's still a big enough difference that it will take much longer than you think. Have fun emulating a Unified Memory Architecture in software... read: impossible
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 09:32 PM   #6
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Anything can be emulated, by definition.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 09:33 PM   #7
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It's also funny that any topic brought up concerning the graphics chip in the Xbox or related to the hardware inside it always gets responses centered around the subject of emulation, PC's being better, or other such nonsense.

Think about something for a second. The other two consoles are progressively less powerful than the Xbox and will in turn require much less powerful PC hardware to emulate them, which in turn equates to them being emulated much faster and earlier. Yet, you don't feel the need to bring this up at anytime, but rather center all your negative attention towards the Xbox

Also, enjoy M$'s backhand upside your head if you are actively trying to emulate the Xbox. People can't help themselves and feel the need to post whatever they are doing on a webpage. A few have already been removed per M$'s big bad legal men in suits
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 09:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoBVila
Anything can be emulated, by definition.
Of course Bobby, and this is exactly why there are things that can't be emulated.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 09:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeathKnightMaF

Of course Bobby, and this is exactly why there are things that can't be emulated.
HUH?
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 09:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by AmanoJaku


HUH?
It was kind of sarcastic, but also not.

Let me make this clearer: There are many things that can't be emulated in software.. UMA being one of them. UMA can theoretically be emulated in VRAM, but PC's suffer horribly from a little thing known as the AGP bus (which limits all data to and from the graphics card and the rest of the PC to the speed it is running at... currently AGP 4x, 1GB/sec data transfer rate, 66MHz bus clock). In the Xbox the NV2A has straight access to main memory bandwidth (6.4GB/sec max) which is over 6 times the bandwidth of an AGP bus. Not to mention the data transfer is in sync with the system clock.

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Old Feb 6, 2002, 09:57 PM   #11
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Yeah, kind of like a P100 won't emulate an N64 at an acceptable...but can a faster machine? Of course. A 450 with a Voodoo 2 could. And...the better the emulator, the less power required to run it!

Come on, at least provide a challenge to your strawman arguments.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 09:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoBVila
Yeah, kind of like a P100 won't emulate an N64 at an acceptable...but can a faster machine? Of course. A 450 with a Voodoo 2 could. And...the better the emulator, the less power required to run it!

Come on, at least provide a challenge to your strawman arguments.
Reread my posts. It's flown right over your head.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 10:00 PM   #13
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What has? No one has seen it to begin with...
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 10:02 PM   #14
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*sigh* :ugh:
Quote:
Originally posted by DeathKnightMaF
It's also funny that any topic brought up concerning the graphics chip in the Xbox or related to the hardware inside it always gets responses centered around the subject of emulation, PC's being better, or other such nonsense.

Think about something for a second. The other two consoles are progressively less powerful than the Xbox and will in turn require much less powerful PC hardware to emulate them, which in turn equates to them being emulated much faster and earlier. Yet, you don't feel the need to bring this up at anytime, but rather center all your negative attention towards the Xbox

Also, enjoy M$'s backhand upside your head if you are actively trying to emulate the Xbox. People can't help themselves and feel the need to post whatever they are doing on a webpage. A few have already been removed per M$'s big bad legal men in suits
Quote:
Originally posted by DeathKnightMaF

It was kind of sarcastic, but also not.

Let me make this clearer: There are many things that can't be emulated in software.. UMA being one of them. UMA can theoretically be emulated in VRAM, but PC's suffer horribly from a little thing known as the AGP bus (which limits all data to and from the graphics card and the rest of the PC to the speed it is running at... currently AGP 4x, 1GB/sec data transfer rate, 66MHz bus clock). In the Xbox the NV2A has straight access to main memory bandwidth (6.4GB/sec max) which is over 6 times the bandwidth of an AGP bus. Not to mention the data transfer is in sync with the system clock.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 10:04 PM   #15
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That's great, yet it shows me nothing.

I see Halo running at 30 FPS @ 640x480.
I see RTCW running at 100 FPS+ @ 1024x768.

RTCW looks better in almost every facet. It's running at 3x the resolution with over 3x the framerate. Poly counts are probably also higher.

You show me some theoretical number that no one cares about.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 10:08 PM   #16
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Bobby, Bobby, Bobby. You are the epitome of fanboy nonsense.

Do you need some examples?

DOA3 = nothing on PC comes close
Wreckless = oozing of graphical goodness, nothing on the PC comes close, and nothing will for quite some time

I can point out quite a large handful of games that slap the PC around in their sleep in terms of graphics. You don't have a grasp as to how PC gaming works so it would be wise if you refrained from discussing it.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 10:10 PM   #17
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Nothing comes close? Uh, sure buddy...

What you are holding onto is an OPINION. Not a fact. Don't pass it off as one; or, if you want to, keep it on an XBox (read: unintelligent) board.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 10:12 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoBVila
Nothing comes close? Uh, sure buddy...

What you are holding onto is an OPINION. Not a fact. Don't pass it off as one; or, if you want to, keep it on an XBox (read: unintelligent) board.


Is this the kind of comeback you have when you can't think of a legitimate argument? You obviously can't. It's not debateable. Sorry Bobby, you've already lost.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 10:14 PM   #19
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Yeah, I lost. Higher resolution, higher polygon counts, higher framerate. Oh wait, I lost! Oh, that was DK who said I lost, never mind...
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 10:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoBVila
Yeah, I lost. Higher resolution, higher polygon counts, higher framerate. Oh wait, I lost! Oh, that was DK who said I lost, never mind...
Higher res? Negligible. You seem to have lost grasp with both console gaming and PC gaming. Must be a new record! Maybe you should refrain from posting altogether.

Higher polycounts? What games PC games push upwards of 15mpps? None that I know of. Hell, the developers of DuesEx 2 are excited they're pushing 5mpps.

Higher framerates? Games seem smooth to me on my TV

Spare us your incessant garbage and refrain from posting

I'm out for the night. No use in continuing on with your joke of an argument seeing as you've already lost and no one will be here to rebuttle
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 10:25 PM   #21
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No one is rebutting anything anyway.

Higher res? YES. Negligable to YOU, but the advantage is there nonetheless.

Higher polycounts? Most games don't push them, but that doesn't mean the capability isn't there. Most XBox games don't come close to 15 MPPS either. I can say, "Well hell, a GF2 got 20 MPPS in the triangle test in 3D Mark 2000." And i'td be legitimate because most complex games don't push that many polys.

Higher framerates? YES. It doesn't matter if it seems smooth to YOU; no one argued that. The argument was that plenty of games (highend ones no less) run at huge framerates.

So you can leave if you'd like, but the argument still stands.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 10:29 PM   #22
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Emulating the xBox is a very interesting topic that I havent read alot about, but to me sounds plausible, eventually. Realistically, if I remember the hardware and software architecture of the xBox correctly, its basically a p3-800, a GF3, and what, 64mb of ram, all connected by a high speed bus (i left off sound and such, as i deem them irrevelant to this discussion). What's interesting is that the graphics system doesnt have its own RAM if i understand it right, instead it has direct, extremely high speed access to the system ram. Thus, the system ram is shared by the graphics "card" and the cpu.

If i understand this architecture somewhat correctly, then it would seem that there are 3 obstacles to overcome before we can see acceptable emulation. First, naturally, xBox runs its own streamlined OS, so any emulator may need a much more powerful CPU on the computer to overcome all the overhead of WinXP and directX and such. Second, an emulator would need at least as powerful, probably a little faster gfx card with at least 64, preferably 128, ram onboard. Theres no way i believe the xBox's bus between the gfx part and the CPU is faster than the onboard DDR ram of a Geforce3 or 4. So if our onboard RAM is fast enough, and we have enough, then we can do all our work within this RAM, if we have to for performance reasons. Now, the last thing an emulator would need, and perhaps most important and hardest to get, would be a programmer(s) slick enough to write the code that would be required. Alot of the emulator, at least today with our computers being only marginally faster than the xBox, would need to be programmed directly to the card and would require some slick coding of the gfx card RAM.

Like I've tried to say above, i dont know the xBox architecture inside and out and can only go on what i remember, but i believe we have the hardware, or will have the hardware shortly to allow for it, its just a matter of writing the code. Which, unfortunately could take years!!!
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 10:49 PM   #23
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Sorry guys, but DK seems to think that you need THE ACTUAL HARDWARE OF THE SYSTEM to emualte the said system, which is WAY off base.

Emulation: Computer Science. To imitate the function of (another system), as by modifications to hardware or software that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, execute the same programs, and achieve the same results as the imitated system.

Emulation of anything is possible, INCLUDING the Xbox, PS2, GC or anything else.
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 10:54 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeathKnightMaF

It was kind of sarcastic, but also not.

Let me make this clearer: There are many things that can't be emulated in software.. UMA being one of them. UMA can theoretically be emulated in VRAM, but PC's suffer horribly from a little thing known as the AGP bus (which limits all data to and from the graphics card and the rest of the PC to the speed it is running at... currently AGP 4x, 1GB/sec data transfer rate, 66MHz bus clock). In the Xbox the NV2A has straight access to main memory bandwidth (6.4GB/sec max) which is over 6 times the bandwidth of an AGP bus. Not to mention the data transfer is in sync with the system clock.
Thats why a JIT or HLE emulator would work. It doesn't emulate the hardware, it interprets the software and sends the correct calls to the hosts hardware thus allowing the program to be used on the PC. Thats how N64 emulation was possible.

Jim
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Old Feb 6, 2002, 11:50 PM   #25
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why are you guys even arguing this?

does anyone actually WANT to play an emulated Xbox game on their PC when they can just get the port?

lol


and im sorry bobvilla, when you make comments about DK being a fanboy so hes dumb, i laugh. You are no less a fanboy for the GC than DK is for the Xbox
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Old Feb 7, 2002, 12:40 AM   #26
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hehe, all i can say is, i strayed away from pc gaming until i got a new cpu and a radeon 8500, when i saw soul reaver 2 i almost sh$t my pants it looked so good, and when i can say the same for when i played 4x4 2 evo on the pc, i had rented it on xbox and i liked it a lot, but its fuggin awsome with the r8500. its a lot smoother and colors are a lot brighter, hell it made me like pc gaming so much im probably going to upgrade again soon, and get a bigger monitor, some ddr and a gf4 or radeon 3 if the release date sint far off
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Old Feb 7, 2002, 07:46 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by mulciber
why are you guys even arguing this?

does anyone actually WANT to play an emulated Xbox game on their PC when they can just get the port?

Yes, why not? .

Jim
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Old Feb 7, 2002, 07:56 AM   #28
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Wow, saddly enough I knew where this thread was going to go as soon as I read the topic.
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Old Feb 7, 2002, 12:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Higher polycounts? Most games don't push them, but that doesn't mean the capability isn't there. Most XBox games don't come close to 15 MPPS either. I can say, "Well hell, a GF2 got 20 MPPS in the triangle test in 3D Mark 2000." And i'td be legitimate because most complex games don't push that many polys.
Yes, most games may not push 15mpps on the Xbox but some can push even farther than that and I believe soon many games will be pushing that amount of poly's and more. Here are some comments on Transworld Snowboarding from the developer:

"Uh-oh, too many questions... but I'll have these answered:

1. compared to BZ, control is radically reworked. more sensitive, much better in my opinion. uses both sticks.

2. Xbox hardware is most powerful yet

3. polycount changes, but approximately 2-300.000 per frame, running 60frames/second"

Transworld Snowboarding thread

That's 12 - 18 million polygons a second at 60 frames per second. Pretty impressive stuff compared to a PC game. I'm sure Wreckless is pushing near this many also, if not more. The GC can also push more poly's than a typical PC game but I do understand what you're saying about PC games. They are very impressive visually without the high poly counts.
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Old Feb 7, 2002, 03:01 PM   #30
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you know why PCs dont push the polygons the consoles do?
Its NOT that they DONT have the capability (well, in some cases)
Its that not EVERYONE has the capability to do so.
All the developers have to program for the least commmon denominator, and thats like the majority of pcs not being able to push poly's at a tremendous amount. Slowly when PC's begin getting more powerful (well at least the least commmon denominator machines) THEN the polygon crunching can begin.

Consoles dont have this limitation, all of them are built the same. and therefore all of them can be made to run games expected of the performance and poly crunching they are built for.

BTW anything is possible when it comes to emulation. Its all a matter of time, and how they get around emulating a certain roadblock.
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