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Old Sep 14, 2005, 05:27 AM   #1
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jonib
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Default "CATALYST maker"'s statement in the "We want Super-Sampling Anti-Aliasing" thread

Hi

I wonder if anybody knows what CATALYST maker ment by this ?
Quote:
If after you see what we have coming, and you still think that this antiquated anti-aliasing algorithm is still important let me know. OK?
Posted Jan 5, 2004

from this thread We want supersampling
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Old Sep 14, 2005, 06:13 AM   #2
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Transparancy AA!! oh.. hangon thats Nvidia again!
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Old Sep 14, 2005, 06:28 AM   #3
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Well I belive they were planning on adding something very similar to Nvidias transparency AA but they never got around to it as another ATI employee at the time mentioned it in another thread. If they had they would have had the feature WAY before Nvidia even thought about it.

According to various posts on Beyond3D (and a few posts here by humus etc) there are a few ways transparency AA can be done. There are drawbacks and Nvidias method isnt perfect. At least it wasnt when I tried it on a selection of games a while ago.
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Old Sep 14, 2005, 06:40 AM   #4
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they are busy with something

Greetz

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Old Sep 14, 2005, 06:40 AM   #5
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Maybe that was in reference to Temporal AA?
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Old Sep 14, 2005, 08:20 AM   #6
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One year has passed and I still want SS. CM also wrote:
Quote:
The benefit will be that less than 2% of the games being played *may* seem clearer in certain scenes.
Is this for real?
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Old Sep 14, 2005, 08:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratchet
Maybe that was in reference to Temporal AA?
I'm afraid he might have ment Temporal AA but it does not support his claim to make us forget about SSAA.
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Old Sep 14, 2005, 08:48 AM   #8
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Theres no need for SSAA if they do eventually add Transparency AA since it will have all the benefits for Alpha textures that SSAA has but with none of the drawbacks for regular textures.

Also since current ATI cards are limited to 2048 x 2048 texture sizes you wouldnt be able to use SSAA at anything other than low resolutions without resorting to mixed mode SSAA/MSAA.
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Old Sep 14, 2005, 09:01 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyre
Theres no need for SSAA if they do eventually add Transparency AA since it will have all the benefits for Alpha textures that SSAA has but with none of the drawbacks for regular textures.
Yes less need for SSAA if they implement a working Transparency AA but it's almost 2 years since the post from Catalyst Maker and we have only MSAA+Temporal AA.
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Old Sep 14, 2005, 09:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonib
Hi

I wonder if anybody knows what CATALYST maker ment by this ?


Posted Jan 5, 2004

from this thread We want supersampling
I always thought he was speaking more broadly about features in the Catalyst driver sets in general. In this case, I think he was referring to the CCC (which wasn't out at the time).
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Old Sep 14, 2005, 03:02 PM   #11
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Actually, isn't Crossfire supposed to be offerring newer forms of supersampling AA?

Worse case, I'd expect CrossFire AA to be similar in nature to SLI AA, where it takes two texel samples per frame minimum, even in MSAA mode, which can indeed have positive impact on alpha test textures.

Either way, Crossfire does open some new doors for AA/IQ afficianados. We'll have to wait and see what the R5xx's will offer for single-card AA solutions though. It seems pretty obvious that at least HDR+RTT will allow for AA (judging by Richard Huddy's comments), which is something you can't do on any other card right now.
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Old Sep 15, 2005, 05:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkfood
Actually, isn't Crossfire supposed to be offerring newer forms of supersampling AA?
Yes SSAA in Crossfire is nice but I don't want to buy 2 cards to get better AA.
I realy hope r520 will have someting new in AA.
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Old Sep 15, 2005, 01:59 PM   #13
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Looks like costs (at least for Crossfire) SSAA are not that much ridiculous anymore.
And "antiquate" SS still has some more goodies then transparency AA.

Last edited by Putas : Sep 15, 2005 at 02:03 PM.
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Old Sep 15, 2005, 03:56 PM   #14
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Doesn't SSAA benefit certain games like Halo and NFS:Underground (when motion blur is enabled) that can't use standard MSAA?

My nvidia cards can do NFS:U with 8xS (or whatever) without any problems even on a 6600GT. Meanwhile my X850XT PE chokes when AA is enabled (again, with motion blur on). I haven't tested Halo yet.
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Old Sep 15, 2005, 04:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhz9294
My nvidia cards can do NFS:U with 8xS (or whatever) without any problems even on a 6600GT. Meanwhile my X850XT PE chokes when AA is enabled (again, with motion blur on). I haven't tested Halo yet.
I think I missed something, NFSU2 does AA fine. This is on a Mobility 9600Pro with AA selected in game. Slow as hell but it do work:


http://x4.putfile.com/9/25510100982.png
http://x4.putfile.com/9/25510065871.png
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Old Sep 15, 2005, 04:16 PM   #16
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@ Gold

Dont post huge ass pictures in the forum have the common sense to resize them and offer the full size for people to click on as needed. I edited your post to stop the pics loading.

Also he said NFSU not NFSU:2

NFSU doesnt work with AA (unless you turn off 2 in game effects that use render targets)
NFSU:2 Does work with AA with those effects enabled (reason is that its possible to use AA with render targets but the game engine needs to use certain DX9 features and the earlier mainly DX8 engine of NFS:U didnt)

As for AA and NFSU (the first one) there is no AA in the game if you have motion blur and light trails set to on as the game uses render targets (same as halo) so sorry bhz9294 but you must have those effects turned off to get AA to work and yes I've tested it on Nvidia cards. If you have AA working then the drivers you are using must have broken those effects somehow.
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Old Sep 15, 2005, 04:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhz9294
Doesn't SSAA benefit certain games like Halo and NFS:Underground (when motion blur is enabled) that can't use standard MSAA?
Nope any game that cant use MSAA also cant use SSAA.
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Old Sep 15, 2005, 06:24 PM   #18
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Sprye why do you say there is no need for SSAA?

I use SSAA for all of my easports games and it makes them look wonderful.

It is definatly my favorite AA mode.
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Old Sep 15, 2005, 09:37 PM   #19
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The main reason people want SSAA is the horrible jaggies with alpha textures on fences bushes and trees etc. People were of the belief that SSAA would also help with games that didnt like MSAA (an incorrect assumption unfortunately)

SSAA is slower than MSAA even on Nvidia cards where they have had years to try to perfect the technique. The SSAA method isnt as effcient as MSAA. SSAA also can cause shimmer and artifacts on textures that were not designed to be SSAA'd So having some kind of transparency AA plus MSAA would be the preferable solution for decent IQ and for minimal performance hit since only the alpha textures get SSAA'd not the whole screen.

After playing with the mode on a Nvidia card and also messing with the OGL / D3D files that humus made going back to regular AA is no where near as good as before. Jaggies in fences that you just kind of tune out before as you knew they wouldnt get AA'd just look ugly without the tweaks.
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Old Sep 16, 2005, 04:38 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyre
Nope any game that cant use MSAA also cant use SSAA.
But HDR games are on the way.

It can produce shimmer, but most of the time reduce it. Thanks to working an all the frame it removes all the jaggies, not just polygon edges. Why are ati people talking only about negatives?
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Old Sep 16, 2005, 05:15 AM   #21
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So what if HDR is going to be used more, that just means even less games will have AA enabled with HDR effects present as most methods of HDR are incompatible with AA. (except HL2 Lost Coast's method apparently)
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Old Sep 18, 2005, 01:32 AM   #22
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yeah but diablo 2 looks messy without ssaa
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Old Sep 18, 2005, 11:40 AM   #23
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So use DX Tweaker for SSAA or buy a cheap second hand system with a old voodoo card since that game looks better on Glide and they have SSAA. Or use a Glide emulator that supports AA. Or an 8500 as they did SSAA, or an old Nvidia card. Or buy two CrossFire setup so that you can get SSAA.

There are plenty of games that need 8-bit palletized textures which arent available on modern cards and your only choice is to buy an old card that supports this if you wish to play those games with all the effects and graphics present. Same goes for W-Buffer. Buying an old system to play older games would get you those benefits too.
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Old Sep 19, 2005, 01:20 AM   #24
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i have a v5500 and a p3 1ghz....i know.but it would be handy
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Old Sep 19, 2005, 04:41 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyre
So what if HDR is going to be used more, that just means even less games will have AA enabled with HDR effects present as most methods of HDR are incompatible with AA. (except HL2 Lost Coast's method apparently)

Valve tweaked the HDR part to be compatible with AA, I think this is the fourth revision of HDR who gave them the satisfaction they wanted

read here

Quote:
The coding team at Valve certainly sweated blood on getting HDR right for Source: in development since 2003, they went through no fewer than four different approaches to the HDR puzzle. Each method had pros & cons, so while one provided the overbright detail needed for blooming, its performance was "so-so" and it broke Multi-Sample Anti-Aliasing (MSAA). As cool as HDR is, Newell was adament that users would not have to sacrifice the ability to run AA in order to gain access to HDR.

By the fourth interation, the lads had cracked it: MSAA worked; it worked on all DX9 hardware, with reasonable performance on even a Radeon 9600; indeed the performance was the best of the four methods, with only a small performance hit over Half-Life 2's LDR solution.

To clarify, then: the HDR works on Shader Model 2 and Shader Model 3 hardware, and you can run it with anti-aliasing on.
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Old Sep 19, 2005, 06:27 AM   #26
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Which is what I already said.
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Old Sep 19, 2005, 09:32 AM   #27
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I gave the link to the article they tell us about their efforts

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Old Sep 19, 2005, 10:45 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyre
Theres no need for SSAA if they do eventually add Transparency AA since it will have all the benefits for Alpha textures that SSAA has but with none of the drawbacks for regular textures.

Also since current ATI cards are limited to 2048 x 2048 texture sizes you wouldnt be able to use SSAA at anything other than low resolutions without resorting to mixed mode SSAA/MSAA.
What about games like Grim Fandango? I just got it, looks horrible at fixed 640x480 with no AA on a 17" CRT. I heard NV's cards support AA with this game, so I think it's because of SSAA. Maybe I'll have to get or borrow a GF4 MX to play this one .

Anyways, now that gives me the idea: couldn't they make a driver setting to force a certain resolution (with stretching), regardless of what the game sets for D3D? Anyone know a tweaker for this purpose?
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Old Sep 19, 2005, 11:50 AM   #29
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Once DX Tweaker is finished that should support Grim Fandango but it doesnt at the moment as its a DX5 (or even earlier) game and DX Tweaker only supports DX8 and 9 games (and not every single game) for now. I think they recently added support for DX7 on the last version.

As for the scaling of low resolutions, its possible but isnt in the drivers for CRT monitors and only in to a limited degree on TFT monitors (only kicks in at above 1024 x 768). Shouldnt matter too much as TFT's become the standard instead of CRT's as they do the scaling on their own in the TFT hardware. (especially if you have a DELL 24inch TFT like me which has excellent scaling features )

Nvidia have a driver feature to scale 800 x 600 to 1200 x 900 to make things at that res look a bit better by line doubling for CRT monitors but it doesnt work for everything and looks odd on certain games, especially if the game then crashes as you have a screwed up windows desktop (happened to me on a few games) Alt tabbing tends to mess this up too last time I tried it.
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