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Old Jun 7, 2003, 07:38 PM   #1
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Frog
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Default ATI put in the same boat as nVidia

I pulled this off of OCP. What's interesting about it is that he makes ATI sound equal to, if not worse, than nVidia. Anyone reading it would assume that FutureMark ok'd nVidia's use of the cheats, but not ATI's.

http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-158-1.htm

Here's an excerpt that I found:

'Supposedly the 330 patch eliminates the tweaks that both ATI and NVIDIA added to their drivers to drop quality levels when 3DMark03 is detected'

Stating that both nVidia AND ATI used quality reducing drivers. It looks like nVidia is getting it's way; 'If you can't win, drag the competition down with you.'
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Old Jun 7, 2003, 07:51 PM   #2
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Ati's "optimization" was very small but it was still there..
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Old Jun 7, 2003, 07:58 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by therock16
Ati's "optimization" was very small but it was still there..
ATI's optimization was not a quality reducing optimization as stated in this article. The optimizations used by ATI are not in the same league as nVidia's.
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Old Jun 7, 2003, 08:00 PM   #4
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I responed to them as a Guest on their Forum here...

http://www.hardcoreware.net/forum/sh...606#post116606

Lets show them what happens when you *accidently* misinform every reader that comes to your site

You dont have to register to post... heh..
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Old Jun 7, 2003, 08:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frog
The optimizations used by ATI are not in the same league as nVidia's.
But it still exists and that's my point
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Old Jun 7, 2003, 08:50 PM   #6
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I just wish this would have been as big as ATi's 'Quack' incident.

I mean.. STILL people who have no clue what they are talking about mention the Quake 3 thing.. even when ATi isn't mentioned in the first place.

Unfortunately this wont be the case with 3DMark03 a year from now.. by then it would have been forgotten about.
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Old Jun 7, 2003, 09:03 PM   #7
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I just ranted a bit, that place just seems full of silly fanboys anyways.
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Old Jun 7, 2003, 09:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Crawdaddy79
I just wish this would have been as big as ATi's 'Quack' incident.

I mean.. STILL people who have no clue what they are talking about mention the Quake 3 thing.. even when ATi isn't mentioned in the first place.

Unfortunately this wont be the case with 3DMark03 a year from now.. by then it would have been forgotten about.
Quack was a big deal because it was 'discovered' by a 'reputable' review site, complete with pictures. What nobody remembers is that 3 weeks after it was discovered, ATI released a driver set that fixed the problem, without a loss of performance from the cheat drivers.

The problem here is that the 'reputable' sites are ignoring the fact that nVidia cheated. nVidia's PR machine at work no doubt. The only thing people will remember a year from now is that ATI and nVidia cheated in 3DMark03, and that it's a useless benchmark.
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Old Jun 7, 2003, 09:23 PM   #9
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90% of the card market knows nothing of Quack and will know nothing of 3DMurk either. ATi was only hurt in the enthusiast market, and nVidia will suffer some in the enthusiast market as well, but it won't kill them, that's for sure.
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 04:05 AM   #10
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Hi guys, I'm the Editor in Chief over at hardCOREware.net. Like I said in the article description, our Video Card editor felt like talking about the issue of 3DMark and benchmarking in general.

As you guys have pointed out, I didn't do a great job as Editor in Chief, and some errors were left int he editorial.

I am going to change some things now, most importantly the aspects of putting ATI in the same boat as NVIDIA. I agree with everyone here on that issue; ATI's optimizations are real 'optimizations' that didn't change a single pixel on screen. NVIDIA's are nothing more than cheats that exploit 3DMark03 in every way possible.
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 04:59 AM   #11
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You know what? nVidia's cheats are not confined to 3DMark. I have just recently gone from a ti4600 to a 9800 pro. The Image quality in absolutely EVERYTHING - NHL2003, Freelancer, Dark Age of Camelot, Jedi Outcast, etc, is very much better with the Radeon. It looks to me that ever since the 9700 pro came out and started kicking nVidia's butt in a serious way that their response with the Detonator drivers has been to sacrifice quality in a vain attempt to bring their speed up to competitive levels.

Absolutely everything looks 100% better with the Radeon at default settings compared to the ti4600 at it's default settings.

Image quality, of course, is very hard to quantify objectively. I'm sure that is exactly what nVidia counts on when they try to compete head to head with the superior ATI products.
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 05:07 AM   #12
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eh, i sent him an email before anyone else had posted on the damn message board.
no response.
But hell, it looks like its getting fixed.
Although it still doesnt remove the lame assertion that 3dmark is falwed merely ebcause it can be cheated on.
[T]ardOCP and this website appear to think that other benchmarks are somehow immune to cheating.
I ask you, what has anyone done to SEE if there even IS cheating going on in common game benchmarks??
And what CAN they do? The real answer is nothing. The developer or the benchmark must be the ones to determine wf there is cheating,a s they are the only ones who can alter the code, adn the only ones with a vested interest in doing so. And set of benchmarks based on games is open to cheats/optimizations of some sort. The only way to catch em all is to be able to entirely re-write the benchmark to see if the scores change. This is the main reason i think that Ideas such as those put out by HardOCP and hardCOReware are silly. These people misplace blame (onto futuremark, why????? they didnt cheat!) and come up with some infantile idea to replace it with something less secure. ok. WTF?
Why would anyone trust reviewers to find out if a specific card is cheating? They have neither the time nor the resources to do this. It requires code modification, and tons of testing. It is best done by a team, not a few people. Look at the FutureMark PDF. Obviously, took a great deal of time and resources to figure out exactly what was wrong, and it took some rewritten code also. Now, how is Kyle over at the [H] or whoever at hardCOREware gonna be able to do any of that?
The simple answer is, he is not. And thus, the ideas put forth for a new benchmark methodology are silly and not well thought out. Of course, certain peoples apparent bias make it seem like they have an agenda, in this case. So you dont like the final score eh?
Why? Is it somehow MORE arbitrary than the score in 3dmark01?
Its a useful tool. Not the be all end all. But claims that it is useless - i laugh at. Why is it useless? Give me some reasons here. Oh it can be cheated on. So can ANY piece of software. So i guess everything is useless
Ok, so the score is arbitrary. How so? How would you change it? what would you weigh more or less? And at the very least, the actual FPS numbers of the test are usefull. Synthetic tests are the ONLY way to fully predict an architectures performance, because they can trace out every dependency - game benchmarks are too limited. But somehow, the idea that synthetic=bad has wormed its way into the minds of many. I still dont see why. Futuremark has, thus far, lined up extraordinarily well (sans cheats, ie build 330) with real world benchmarks of games, DX9 shader perfromance, etc. Basically, it IS returning GOOD information!
Yet i still see quotes of how worthless it is.

If it is so worthless, show me where it returns false results (when its not being cheated on)? Show me where it falsely shows a cards in game performance (average on games) or shader performance in comparison with anothers?
Thus far, FutureMark is RIGHT ON.
do i want reviews with more than 3dMark?
HELL YES. Because for many people, there is that one "killer app" that will determine which card is purchased. And 3dmark only tries to show general performance trends. But because of this, we know that nv3x cores will suck if a game is super shader (DX9 floating point) heavy. Etc.

Maybe this is ranting a little, but tell me what you think. I could have continued for hours almost - but felt like this was a good stopping point.
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 07:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by lowlight_hcw
Hi guys, I'm the Editor in Chief over at hardCOREware.net. Like I said in the article description, our Video Card editor felt like talking about the issue of 3DMark and benchmarking in general.

As you guys have pointed out, I didn't do a great job as Editor in Chief, and some errors were left int he editorial.

I am going to change some things now, most importantly the aspects of putting ATI in the same boat as NVIDIA. I agree with everyone here on that issue; ATI's optimizations are real 'optimizations' that didn't change a single pixel on screen. NVIDIA's are nothing more than cheats that exploit 3DMark03 in every way possible.
You Sir, are a good man.. I wish other sites would follow suit.
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 08:03 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by lowlight_hcw
Hi guys, I'm the Editor in Chief over at hardCOREware.net. Like I said in the article description, our Video Card editor felt like talking about the issue of 3DMark and benchmarking in general.

As you guys have pointed out, I didn't do a great job as Editor in Chief, and some errors were left int he editorial.

I am going to change some things now, most importantly the aspects of putting ATI in the same boat as NVIDIA. I agree with everyone here on that issue; ATI's optimizations are real 'optimizations' that didn't change a single pixel on screen. NVIDIA's are nothing more than cheats that exploit 3DMark03 in every way possible.
You see, this is the way sites should conduct themselves - Look into the articles they write and make changes if and where mistakes have been made.

Well done to you Sir for addressing the issue - Now if only other sites would follow your lead...
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 09:18 AM   #15
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Thanks guys for understanding. Keep in mind that the opinions in the article are those of that one writer, not the site itself (everyone's allowed to have their own opinions, of course!). By the way, our site isn't "just a bunch of fanboys". We've been around for 3 years and have earned a pretty decent reputation as a 'tell it like we see it' site (as opposed to 'tell it like they tell us to tell it'
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 10:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
We've been around for 3 years and have earned a pretty decent reputation as a 'tell it like we see it' site (as opposed to 'tell it like they tell us to tell it'
Kudos.

You gained one new reader here, finally someone not on [N]vidia's payroll.
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 10:39 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by lowlight_hcw
Thanks guys for understanding. Keep in mind that the opinions in the article are those of that one writer, not the site itself (everyone's allowed to have their own opinions, of course!). By the way, our site isn't "just a bunch of fanboys". We've been around for 3 years and have earned a pretty decent reputation as a 'tell it like we see it' site (as opposed to 'tell it like they tell us to tell it'
Good job. I just added you to my bookmarks. But, hopefully you want attract the same attention from NV that FM got. I wouldn't wish that on anyone
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 10:42 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by lowlight_hcw
Hi guys, I'm the Editor in Chief over at hardCOREware.net. Like I said in the article description, our Video Card editor felt like talking about the issue of 3DMark and benchmarking in general.

As you guys have pointed out, I didn't do a great job as Editor in Chief, and some errors were left int he editorial.

I am going to change some things now, most importantly the aspects of putting ATI in the same boat as NVIDIA. I agree with everyone here on that issue; ATI's optimizations are real 'optimizations' that didn't change a single pixel on screen. NVIDIA's are nothing more than cheats that exploit 3DMark03 in every way possible.
Well you've just gained another reader and my hat is off to you for taking the time to correct it and to come here and say so.

My apologies to you for any nasties, I have a bit of a hair-trigger reflex these days.
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 10:44 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by lowlight_hcw
Hi guys, I'm the Editor in Chief over at hardCOREware.net. Like I said in the article description, our Video Card editor felt like talking about the issue of 3DMark and benchmarking in general.

As you guys have pointed out, I didn't do a great job as Editor in Chief, and some errors were left int he editorial.

I am going to change some things now, most importantly the aspects of putting ATI in the same boat as NVIDIA. I agree with everyone here on that issue; ATI's optimizations are real 'optimizations' that didn't change a single pixel on screen. NVIDIA's are nothing more than cheats that exploit 3DMark03 in every way possible.
When I posted this, I figured you were just another website jumping on Kyle's bandwagon to get readership. I never imagined even once that this would be posted. I guess I'm so used to websites like Kyle's that maintain they're right no matter what. You've just earned another reader.
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 10:44 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Well you've just gained another reader and my hat is off to you for taking the time to correct it and to come here and say so.

My apologies to you for any nasties, I have a bit of a hair-trigger reflex these days.
What is happening to you digi?

I have seen you apologizing got your post both on rage3d and nvews the last few days.
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 12:11 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hanners
You see, this is the way sites should conduct themselves - Look into the articles they write and make changes if and where mistakes have been made.

Well done to you Sir for addressing the issue - Now if only other sites would follow your lead...
Yeah maybe AT will fix their fatally flawed bench #'s from their review.......



NOT!!!
"We're looking into it".... as the thread gets deleted.

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Old Jun 8, 2003, 12:43 PM   #22
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Good Job man!!

I appriciate what you are doing. To tell you the truth I had never even seen you site before. But it is pretty impressive. Nice look, good content and you have a lot of Forum members.

I was like.. holy crap.. where did this come from
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 02:31 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by therock16
But it still exists and that's my point
Actually, the difference is black and white. One cheated, the other one didn't. Did that clarify it for you?

Last edited by ViCyniC : Jun 8, 2003 at 02:38 PM.
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 03:17 PM   #24
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Arrow Well, I got me this weird "manners" thing.

Quote:
Originally posted by goofer
What is happening to you digi?

I have seen you apologizing got your post both on rage3d and nvews the last few days.
When I find out I'm wrong about something I say so and apologize for my error and any offense me error might have given, how else are you supposed to deal with it when ya make mistakes?
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 03:57 PM   #25
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KUDO's to lowlight, hardcore is now a bookmarked site.

By-the-way: did anyone else happen to catch the unverified statement in that same thread:

http://www.hardcoreware.net/forum/sh...606#post116606

where a guest says:
Quote:
It seems nvidia have gone right ahead and made their cheats work with the 330 build of 3dmark. This happens in their yet to be release 44.61 drivers.
Wouldn't that be a scream? I'm not sure what kind of scream mind you, but definately some kind....

BackSpaced

P.S. Could anyone direct me to a FAQ/tutorial on posting with this forum program? There's a couple of things I can't figure out.
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 04:09 PM   #26
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sorry, there's more:

Quote:
at nvnews. Someone there doing a review has been sent these new drivers, and have tested it out.

44.03
build 320: 5800
build 330: 4100

44.61
build 320: 5800
build 330: 5800
and to top it off, "nvidia are apparently telling reviewers to use these new cheat re-enabled drivers." also from same guest.

---scream currently stuck in throat----

I'm going to look over at nvnews for the sourse.

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Old Jun 8, 2003, 04:21 PM   #27
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and conversing with myself again-

the source at nvnews is very legit: its AnteP!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
With the new 44.61 driver the scores do not drop after installing the 330 patch.
wow, the rabbit hole is freakin' bottomless!!!!!!!

un-freakin believable.

me

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...t&pagenumber=9
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 04:25 PM   #28
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 04:27 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by BackSpaced
sorry, there's more:



and to top it off, "nvidia are apparently telling reviewers to use these new cheat re-enabled drivers." also from same guest.

---scream currently stuck in throat----

I'm going to look over at nvnews for the sourse.

BackSpaced
No need, I can tell you that one. It was AnteP and he does have the hardware and drivers in question and a MORE than reliable reputation for honesty. (And again AnteP, I do apologize for calling your integrity into question. My bad entirely and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. )

Yup. The new 44.61 set scores the same before and after patch, I don't THINK he ran the 3dmurk test on it...but I can't recall.

Oh, and the 44.61 set are supposedly the "shipping drivers" with the new cards so that's why nVidia is recomending reviewers use them.
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Old Jun 8, 2003, 04:28 PM   #30
Frog
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Join Date: Dec 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by digitalwanderer
No need, I can tell you that one. It was AnteP and he does have the hardware and drivers in question and a MORE than reliable reputation for honesty. (And again AnteP, I do apologize for calling your integrity into question. My bad entirely and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. )

Yup. The new 44.61 set scores the same before and after patch, I don't THINK he ran the 3dmurk test on it...but I can't recall.

Oh, and the 44.61 set are supposedly the "shipping drivers" with the new cards so that's why nVidia is recomending reviewers use them.
On b3d he states the 3dMurk issue is no longer present in those drivers either.
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