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Old Aug 14, 2008, 12:10 AM   #301
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dawdler
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Originally Posted by Dragex View Post
Blizzard are entirely correct on their arguments against the fan-made pictures. Read carefully what he says and the design decisions behind it.
No they're not.

One of the arguments is Though it looks really cool, it’s almost impossible to do in a 3D engine because you can’t have lighting that smart and run on systems that are reasonable.

Oh really? Most of the altered pictures are merely contrast/brightness adjustments for a darker experience. BF2142 for example can do this realtime (you can play the game in black and white, swap colors, lower color strength, make a shiny psychadelic lightshow if you want!).
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 01:43 AM   #302
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Can you link me to how I get BF2142 to do that? I want to know how I can make my game do that.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 04:14 AM   #303
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Except success in the gaming world and in the MMO genre is measure by number of sales and subscriptions retained. His opinion of not liking wow is his to keep but the billions generated by WoW accounts and box sales is more then enough proof of the success of WoW as a gaming product. Thus WoW did not fail at all and is not an example of failure by standards of the gaming industry. In fact if you were to ask anyone in the MMO business they would agree that WoW is a tremendously successful product. A failure in the MMO world would be something like Auto Assault.
Precisely. His examples of flawed logic has nothing to do with gaming industry standards. Even if you dislike WoW, you have to acknowledged it is great game. Mull over that for awhile. ^^
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 06:30 AM   #304
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No they're not.

One of the arguments is Though it looks really cool, it’s almost impossible to do in a 3D engine because you can’t have lighting that smart and run on systems that are reasonable.

Oh really? Most of the altered pictures are merely contrast/brightness adjustments for a darker experience. BF2142 for example can do this realtime (you can play the game in black and white, swap colors, lower color strength, make a shiny psychadelic lightshow if you want!).
Can't you just turn the brightness/contrast down when you'll play the game and let the rest of the non emo crowd have their fun with a genuinely well designed game from an artistic point of view ?
Pls.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 07:30 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Jaws of Life View Post
Precisely. His examples of flawed logic has nothing to do with gaming industry standards. Even if you dislike WoW, you have to acknowledged it is great game. Mull over that for awhile. ^^
i guess the backstreet boys make great music too.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 07:36 AM   #306
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i guess the backstreet boys make great music too.

A huge number of people thought so... There is never 100% agreement, but to dis WOW and try to say it is not a great game just makes you look foolish.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 12:40 PM   #307
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... To use the argument that since a lot of people play it means it's a good game is ridiculously idiotic at best. A lot of people play a lot of ****ty games, just as a lot of people listen to very shi'ty music. .
Are you 12?

Trying to make an argument and using points like those quoted are just plain stupid. So instead you insinuate 5 to 10 million people play a ****ty game because you don't like it. Great logic there sherlock.

Maybe next time you should think twice about calling ANYONE an "idiot" but then again, morons seldom think twice.

Here's a smiley for you.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 04:35 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Corum Jhaelen Irsei View Post
A huge number of people thought so... There is never 100% agreement, but to dis WOW and try to say it is not a great game just makes you look foolish.
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Originally Posted by Jaws of Life View Post
Precisely. His examples of flawed logic has nothing to do with gaming industry standards. Even if you dislike WoW, you have to acknowledged it is great game. Mull over that for awhile. ^^
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Originally Posted by McTurok View Post
Are you 12?

Trying to make an argument and using points like those quoted are just plain stupid. So instead you insinuate 5 to 10 million people play a ****ty game because you don't like it. Great logic there sherlock.

Maybe next time you should think twice about calling ANYONE an "idiot" but then again, morons seldom think twice.

Here's a smiley for you.
I wasn't aware the moron parade started so early in the year.

If you kids could put down your fanboy shield and sword for just a moment and keep your ADHD in check for two seconds you'd obviously see that I said, and I'm quoting here so you guys can go back to whatever it is you guys do between spewing nonsense on message boards:

"If the Backstreet Boys sucked they wouldn't have sold so many copies.
If slavery was a bad idea it wouldn't have been around so long.

His statement was obviously his opinion. There are no "facts" when it comes to anything subjective."


Simply put (maybe not simply enough for the likes of you guys), just because a game or anything else sells millions of copies it doesn't mean its great, especially in everyone's eyes. My Backstreet Boys comparison is spot on, should we call them great simply because they had the sales and fans to back it up? Obviously we should with your twisted logic given that you think WoW is great given the same criteria.

For argument's sake, I never said anywhere that WoW was a ****ty game there, junior. A game is neither absolutely good or bad, rather there are subjective opinions. One should not discredit their own opinion just because millions of people latch on to it. You guys still with me or did something shiney distract you yet?

In conclusion (that means to close or end, by the way), if we're to call WoW a great game simply based on it's sale numbers we have to call things such as Backstreet Boys, N'Sync, Shania Twain and Kenny G great as well using that moronic logic. If you like the game, fine but don't spew horse**** about sales making a game great.

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Old Aug 14, 2008, 04:59 PM   #309
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I wasn't aware the moron parade started so early in the year.

If you kids could put down your fanboy shield and sword for just a moment and keep your ADHD in check for two seconds you'd obviously see that I said, and I'm quoting here so you guys can go back to whatever it is you guys do between spewing nonsense on message boards:


"If the Backstreet Boys sucked they wouldn't have sold so many copies.
If slavery was a bad idea it wouldn't have been around so long.

His statement was obviously his opinion. There are no "facts" when it comes to anything subjective."


Simply put (maybe not simply enough for the likes of you guys), just because a game or anything else sells millions of copies it doesn't mean its great, especially in everyone's eyes. My Backstreet Boys comparison is spot on, should we call them great simply because they had the sales and fans to back it up? Obviously we should with your twisted logic given that you think WoW is great given the same criteria.

For argument's sake, I never said anywhere that WoW was a ****ty game there, junior. A game is neither absolutely good or bad, rather there are subjective opinions. One should not discredit their own opinion just because millions of people latch on to it. You guys still with me or did something shiney distract you yet?

In conclusion (that means to close or end, by the way), if we're to call WoW a great game simply based on it's sale numbers we have to call things such as Backstreet Boys, N'Sync, Shania Twain and Kenny G great as well using that moronic logic. If you like the game, fine but don't spew horse**** about sales making a game great.

Keep throwing around insults, that's the best way to show us all your maturity level.

Maybe you could stop trying to be a smart ass with all the flaming and actually put some effort into your posts. And, I stated you insinuated that WoW was a shtty game. It's pretty clear as you keep having to resort to flaming others because you can't come up with anything better to make your point.

Fine you don't like WoW. Just because 5 or 10 million others do doesn't make them an "insert your flames here towards them"

Yes we're (not you) calling WoW a great game because of the numbers. A large part of what everyone calls success is the money a product generates. Crap doesn't fly in the market place. AoC is proof of that. WoW has gotten great reviews world-wide BESIDES the huge numbers of subscriptions it maintains.

But if you want to keep going on acting like a fool I'm not going to stop you, after all this "kid" has 10 years on your punk ass and you aren't worth my time.

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Old Aug 14, 2008, 05:25 PM   #310
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Nobody plays Blizzard games for its graphics. Everyone plays them for its story telling, multiplayer content, and just overal perfection that they strive for.

Go play Gothic if you want dark gloomy or Hellgate London. D3 will be amazing.

The second you get in game you'll have forgotten any artistic discussions and you'll be mesmerzied and hooked on finding that SOJ.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 05:28 PM   #311
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A huge number of people thought so... There is never 100% agreement, but to dis WOW and try to say it is not a great game just makes you look foolish.
Once again flawed logic. Sales does not make something great, it can be appealing but thats a totally different matter and that is subjective.

Going back to the backstreet boys comparison, they are surely appealing to a large audience but that doesn't make them great when it comes down to a thorough musical critizism (theory, technique, ideas etc). Thats what people here are discussing.

There is no dennying WoW has a massive appeal, thats for sure.

(And by the way I play it and have two full season 3 characters and one of them with full tier 6, but I still dont think the game is great by any means.)
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 05:43 PM   #312
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Yes we're (not you) calling WoW a great game because of the numbers. A large part of what everyone calls success is the money a product generates. Crap doesn't fly in the market place.
So you're calling the examples I posted before, the Backstreet Boys, Kenny G, Shania Twain and N'Sync great? Wow, that definitely shows your taste.. or lack thereof.

Your argument has no merit and like nothing more than the usual rabid fanboy drivel.

PS. Please provide examples of where I was insinuating WoW is a ****ty game. I'll be waiting.. for a long time.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 06:22 PM   #313
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I was a WoW subscriber for over 2 years. Even though I played regularly I knew (deep down) what a ****ty game it was. Most of the time you end up playing for the sake of progressing.

Like most MMOs it's a ****ty game because instead of being fun, it's merely addictive. Thats how it has so many people playing.

All this game did for me was waste a ****load of my time and put my relationships under strain.

I'm REALLY looking forward to diablo 3... unlike piece of **** WoW, it will have a plot AND be fun to play with no addiction forming griding mechanics.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 06:26 PM   #314
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First off, you can stop attempting to put words in other people's mouths. No one said anything about WoW "failing". To use the argument that since a lot of people play it means it's a good game is ridiculously idiotic at best. A lot of people play a lot of ****ty games, just as a lot of people listen to very ****ty music.

Secondly, you babbled on about "measuring success" but how exactly do you think success is measured in music? The same way as games, by sales and revenue. My original point still stands.
as a musician in a band, success is not managed in $$$ , sorry. Unless your a greedy ***** with no soul or music worth listening to
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 06:29 PM   #315
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as a musician in a band, success is not managed in $$$ , sorry. Unless your a greedy ***** with no soul or music worth listening to
So would you say videogames are any different?
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 06:38 PM   #316
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First off, blah blah blah ... music.

Secondly, you blah blah music? The same way as games, by sales and revenue. My original point still stands.
so you are agreeing to disagree then, good. success in music is not revenue and $$.Its an art.
BTW, I dont know about the video game industry. I know what games i like, but i do not know what determines a success. It may make a company a ****load of cash, but the players may not ever want to call it successful in ART terms.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 07:48 PM   #317
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so you are agreeing to disagree then, good. success in music is not revenue and $$.Its an art.
BTW, I dont know about the video game industry. I know what games i like, but i do not know what determines a success. It may make a company a ****load of cash, but the players may not ever want to call it successful in ART terms.
Success in any business, including music, is definitely determined by profit. To think otherwise is ludicrous. Is your band your main career? That's how it is for a lot of musical artists and certainly the case for many game developers. As with anything there are indie developers, musicians, artists that measure success differently, but these aren't major players in any of their respective fields and their art likely isn't tied into their career.

Because a musical artist would want money for making music doesn't make them souless or whatever other terrible descriptions you used. They simply feel they should be able to live off something they love to do, make music. People feel differently on how their efforts and time should be compensated.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 08:47 PM   #318
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So you're calling the examples I posted before, the Backstreet Boys, Kenny G, Shania Twain and N'Sync great? Wow, that definitely shows your taste.. or lack thereof.

Your argument has no merit and like nothing more than the usual rabid fanboy drivel.

PS. Please provide examples of where I was insinuating WoW is a ****ty game. I'll be waiting.. for a long time.
Ahhhh, I see.

There is no correlation between you comparing music artists who've sold millions of albums and won countless awards and your opinion of those artists being less then good (or not great) to WoW which has also sold millions of copies and won countless awards.

Ahhhh, I see.

Thanks for clearing that up buddy.

PS: I do own a Shania Twain CD. But what would you know about her, you were 8 when it came out and you hadn't even reached puberty.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 09:28 PM   #319
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Ahhhh, I see.

There is no correlation between you comparing music artists who've sold millions of albums and won countless awards and your opinion of those artists being less then good (or not great) to WoW which has also sold millions of copies and won countless awards.

Ahhhh, I see.

Thanks for clearing that up buddy.

PS: I do own a Shania Twain CD. But what would you know about her, you were 8 when it came out and you hadn't even reached puberty.
There are plenty of games that have won countless awards and sold millions of copies that I like. Does that previous statement indicate that I dislike those games as well? Please, use a brain.

So you buy music based on the artist's looks? Now who's claiming maturity? Riiight.

You guys really ran yourselves into the ground in this "argument". If only you spent more of your youth dedicated to critical thinking rather than letting your brain rot away while listening to garbage music.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 10:10 PM   #320
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There are plenty of games that have won countless awards and sold millions of copies that I like. Does that previous statement indicate that I dislike those games as well? Please, use a brain.

So you buy music based on the artist's looks? Now who's claiming maturity? Riiight.

You guys really ran yourselves into the ground in this "argument". If only you spent more of your youth dedicated to critical thinking rather than letting your brain rot away while listening to garbage music.
ROFL! Nice reply, dodge more buddy, dodge more.

Stop trying to spin the situation into something about my music tastes. My taste in music has nothing to do with the fact that you are a moron for claiming the artists you listed suck even though they sold millions of albums and won countless awards. In this case, numbers don't lie and you have nothing that can refute it other then your crackerjack opinion.

Maybe you can post a link to a medical journal with data that shows brains rotting from listening to any of those artists you say suck.

If you are so sure crap sells in the millions, why don't you box up all the crap you been flinging in this thread and make some $$$. You'd be a millionaire in a few days right? Plus I'm sure you'd win a few awards along the way too. Good luck.

Do you even have clue what Critical thinking really means? Seriously, after reading your replies to me, is that what 23 year olds call critical thinking these days? Looks like the standards have drop dramatically over the past decade.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 10:20 PM   #321
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Isn't this about Diablo III?
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 10:21 PM   #322
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Isn't this about Diablo III?
Thank you.
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 11:15 PM   #323
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Isn't this about Diablo III?
Nope rainbows and pretty little dwarves(in WoW of course).
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Old Aug 14, 2008, 11:37 PM   #324
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ROFL! Nice reply, dodge more buddy, dodge more.

Stop trying to spin the situation into something about my music tastes. My taste in music has nothing to do with the fact that you are a moron for claiming the artists you listed suck even though they sold millions of albums and won countless awards. In this case, numbers don't lie and you have nothing that can refute it other then your crackerjack opinion.

Maybe you can post a link to a medical journal with data that shows brains rotting from listening to any of those artists you say suck.

If you are so sure crap sells in the millions, why don't you box up all the crap you been flinging in this thread and make some $$$. You'd be a millionaire in a few days right? Plus I'm sure you'd win a few awards along the way too. Good luck.

Do you even have clue what Critical thinking really means? Seriously, after reading your replies to me, is that what 23 year olds call critical thinking these days? Looks like the standards have drop dramatically over the past decade.
You are so wrong... so so wrong and there is really no way to convince you.

Also don't even bother looking at my age because I put in a fake number, not like age even matters though.

Critical thinking on this case, by the way, means there is no relationship to the number of bought copies to the quality of the product.

You cannot compare the quality of coca cola for example to a well developed wine. Or the quality of say, Beethoven's 5th compared to "Oops I did it again." Talk to any person who has studied music and they will tell you why the Beethoven piece is superior in quality.

As I have said before there is a difference between quality and appeal. "Oops I did it again" might evoke feelings or things that Beethoven's 5th may not on you (which is entirely subjective), but it doesn't mean its of higher quality.

Quality is not subjective while appeal is.

Just look at our video card forum for the maximum example. Even when a card is vastly superior ether nVidia/ATi people will still buy brand allegiance. Call it marketing, call it what you want but the fact is the product doesnt have to be of quality to sell.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 12:44 AM   #325
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ROFL! Nice reply, dodge more buddy, dodge more.

Stop trying to spin the situation into something about my music tastes. My taste in music has nothing to do with the fact that you are a moron for claiming the artists you listed suck even though they sold millions of albums and won countless awards. In this case, numbers don't lie and you have nothing that can refute it other then your crackerjack opinion.

Maybe you can post a link to a medical journal with data that shows brains rotting from listening to any of those artists you say suck.

If you are so sure crap sells in the millions, why don't you box up all the crap you been flinging in this thread and make some $$$. You'd be a millionaire in a few days right? Plus I'm sure you'd win a few awards along the way too. Good luck.

Do you even have clue what Critical thinking really means? Seriously, after reading your replies to me, is that what 23 year olds call critical thinking these days? Looks like the standards have drop dramatically over the past decade.
You really are an idiot, aren't you?

Opinions are subjective and high sales to not equate to quality, as I stated previously. If you think otherwise, you really need to fight a brick wall with your forehead. Do it for the good of the gene pool.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 12:49 AM   #326
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You are so wrong... so so wrong and there is really no way to convince you.

Also don't even bother looking at my age because I put in a fake number, not like age even matters though.

Critical thinking on this case, by the way, means there is no relationship to the number of bought copies to the quality of the product.

You cannot compare the quality of coca cola for example to a well developed wine. Or the quality of say, Beethoven's 5th compared to "Oops I did it again." Talk to any person who has studied music and they will tell you why the Beethoven piece is superior in quality.

As I have said before there is a difference between quality and appeal. "Oops I did it again" might evoke feelings or things that Beethoven's 5th may not on you (which is entirely subjective), but it doesn't mean its of higher quality.

Quality is not subjective while appeal is.

Just look at our video card forum for the maximum example. Even when a card is vastly superior ether nVidia/ATi people will still buy brand allegiance. Call it marketing, call it what you want but the fact is the product doesnt have to be of quality to sell.
Well, I really don't care about your age unless you are going to start saying I have ADHD and calling me a kid.

If you bothered to read my posts you know I was not the one starting these comparisons between music, artists or of age, critical thinking, ADHD, coke cola, etc.

You're also free to put your opinion of critical thinking. It's still your opinion vs. others. You say there is no correlation and others are disagreeing with that. Doesn't mean you are right and it doesn't mean the others are wrong.

It's really not so hard to look at the numbers if you never played WOW and say, "hmmmm, that game must be pretty damn good if it's sold that many copies over the past 4 or 5 years and has maintained millions of subscribers over that time frame. Most everyone could put 2&2 together imho and others in this thread feel the same way. WOW has a history and you can not just ignore that when looking at that correlation between sales numbers and quality of a product.

It's pretty clear WoW is a good/great game. The numbers are proof of that.

And thanks for the civil reply. If I had more time I go into more detail on how badly it is trying to compare coke cola and video cards to a game like WOW. Also you bring up quality and appeal, WOW has both. AOC was missing one and looked what happen to them.

Did I buy AOC? Nope. Why? I did find it very appealing, but the quality wasn't there. Does anyone think AOC will have sales of 1 million more within next year? I bet WOW will.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 01:05 AM   #327
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You really are an idiot, aren't you?

Opinions are subjective and high sales to not equate to quality, as I stated previously. If you think otherwise, you really need to fight a brick wall with your forehead. Do it for the good of the gene pool.
Let me clarify something for you.

Initial sales figures <> lead to quality (AOC is a perfect example of that).

Sales figures over a 4 or 5 year period = quality. (WOW is a perfect example of that.)
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 02:57 AM   #328
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You are so wrong... so so wrong and there is really no way to convince you.

Also don't even bother looking at my age because I put in a fake number, not like age even matters though.

Critical thinking on this case, by the way, means there is no relationship to the number of bought copies to the quality of the product.

You cannot compare the quality of coca cola for example to a well developed wine. Or the quality of say, Beethoven's 5th compared to "Oops I did it again." Talk to any person who has studied music and they will tell you why the Beethoven piece is superior in quality.

As I have said before there is a difference between quality and appeal. "Oops I did it again" might evoke feelings or things that Beethoven's 5th may not on you (which is entirely subjective), but it doesn't mean its of higher quality.

Quality is not subjective while appeal is.

Just look at our video card forum for the maximum example. Even when a card is vastly superior ether nVidia/ATi people will still buy brand allegiance. Call it marketing, call it what you want but the fact is the product doesnt have to be of quality to sell.
This post is pure bunk. Quality is base on opinion of the person claiming something is either of good or bad quality. You are wrong when you say that winning awards and selling many copies does not show quality. You want to use the elitist argument, but it does not wash.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 04:03 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Corum Jhaelen Irsei View Post
This post is pure bunk. Quality is base on opinion of the person claiming something is either of good or bad quality. You are wrong when you say that winning awards and selling many copies does not show quality. You want to use the elitist argument, but it does not wash.
No. I don't really think I have to explain you why, honestly. Its simple to say that quality is not subjective when you measure something objectively. Likes and dislikes, those can not be measured and everyone is free to like and dislike something.

I am not being elitist as you claim, there are things that can be measured to speak of quality in a objective way.

Edit: Also when you say "Quality is base on opinion of the person claiming something is either of good or bad quality." you are entirely wrong. That is the perceived value of a product to the consumer, not the actual quality.
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Old Aug 15, 2008, 06:12 AM   #330
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